Starting as a praetorian = Neutral alinement

[KingCeddd03]

I just noticed when you are a praetorian you have no loyalty to either good or evil, what I mean is you make choices to benefit yourself or another you may what to follow but it's not mean you are bad or good because you can change your mind on the fly. in the story emperor, Cole was only doing what he thought was right for his world and people which means taking on heroes and villains alike. which made him neutral, I think. and that goes for the player too we are all free agents, or we choose our own side, are Selves which I love not having to be a hero nor being a villain but will go against both 

having said that wouldn't it make sense to make Gold side the neutral alignment?

[Rudra]

Gold side isn't neutral. Among the Loyalists, you have the Path of Power and Responsibility. Power would be a villainous alignment where Responsiblity would be a heroic alignment. Same thing with the Wardens and Crusaders of the Resistance. Wardens are the heroic alignment and Crusaders are the villainous ones. Contrast that to Hero, Vigilante, Villain, and Rogue. As a hero or vigilante, you do heroic missions, but vigilantes are decidedly villainous. More so than villains in my opinion. Rogues and villains do villain missions, but rogues are borderline heroes. So red side still has a good-evil divide and so does blue side.

 

The main thing going on red side, blue side, or gold side is faction alignment. To the people of Praetoria, the Resistance is a villainous group disrupting their orderly society. They don't typically care if they are dealing with Wardens or Crusaders. The Loyalists are the heroes to them, without regard to Power or Responsibility. You see the same split blue side and red side. With characters like Doc Quantum who is a hero turned vigilante murdering in the name of the greater good in his experiments. He is a blue sider, but decidedly evil. Polar Shift is the same way until she goes full villain. Then you see honorable red siders. Scirocco, Ghost Widow, the Fortunata who has you go to avenge her brother Paolo, and so forth.

 

Red side is where Arachnos has control and the character is presumed to be evil or at least selfish, but is not locked that way other than Arachnos having dominance. Blue side is where Freedom Corps and the Freedom Phalanx/Vindicators hold sway and characters are presumed to be heroes or at least of moderately noble being, but is not locked that way for outlook/temperament.

 

The most evil people in history were often doing what they believed to be right. That doesn't make them right though. It's the actions people take that define what they are. Not where they come from.

 

Edit: I guess my point is that gold side is not neutral alignment any more than red side or blue side. They are Praetorian side vs Arachnos side vs Phalanx side, where individuals of any side are as good or evil as they are without regard to the perceived alignment of their faction's side.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Rudra

[Luminara]

25 minutes ago, KingCeddd03 said:

wouldn't it make sense to make Gold side the neutral alignment?

 

You're either supporting a fascist state or waging a terrorist war against it.  Never seen much neutrality in those options.

[KingCeddd03]

So what does it mean to be truly neutral?

[Rudra]

You really can't be truly neutral and still be involved. It doesn't really work.

[Cybersbe]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

You really can't be truly neutral and still be involved. It doesn't really work.

Yeah... CoH isn't really the type of game where an official Neutral Alignment would work. And even Praetorians will find it difficult to NOT be heroes or villains once Primal Earth gets involved. The thing is, Emperor Cole/Tyrant is NOT neutral. Not by Primal Earth's standards. He's a major control freak who will do ANYTHING he feels is necessary to "preserve the peace". (He's as bad as Lord Recluse, he's just a Lawful Evil to Recluse's Chaotic Evil.) Praetoria as whole is more gray and grey morality though, so there's good reasons why both Resistance and Loyalists have options to become Heroes or Villains. As a Resistance, you want to find like minded people to help bring down Tyrant. Whether this means being a classic heroic rebel against the evil empire (meaning becoming a hero), or committing terrorism (meaning becoming a villain). As a Loyalist, either you want to (try to) resolve the tension between the Earths diplomatically (meaning becoming a hero), or more or less act as an advance saboteur to wreck terror on Earth and gain some power for yourself while you're at it (meaning becoming a villain). The game even more or less encourages this. The two storylines for each side of the Praetorian conflict more or less encourage you to act according to who you will become when you leave. (Wardens and Responsibility for Heroes. Crusaders and Power for Villains.)

[Six-Six]

6 hours ago, KingCeddd03 said:

Cole was only doing what he thought was right for his world

This is the thinking behind every great villain, real or fictional.

[Luminara]

8 hours ago, KingCeddd03 said:

So what does it mean to be truly neutral?

 

A civilian NPC.  Or furniture.

[Heavensrun]

All I know is that my gut says maybe.

[Astralock]

Warden = Vigilante.

Crusader = Villain.

Power = Rogue.

Responsibility = Hero.

 

Much like in real life, it's not possible to be neutral in any aspect of City of Heroes, blue side, red side, or gold side.

[Cybersbe]

23 hours ago, Astralock said:

Warden = Vigilante.

Crusader = Villain.

Power = Rogue.

Responsibility = Hero.

 

Uh... what? I really don't see the logic behind how you're tying each story line to alignment. Do you think the loyalists are the good guys or something? Because the whole "Praetoria is a mirror universe where the heroes are villains and vice versa" is not ENTIRELY inaccurate. This becomes especially clear when you play through said stories.

 

If you ask me:

 

Warden=Hero

Power=Villain

 

Crusader and Responsibility are not as easy to pin down, though. Crusaders are the dark side of the Resistance and Responsibility is the good side of the Loyalists. Crusaders arguably do lean Villain and Responsibility Hero, though. But depending on how you play, you could make a case for both of them qualifying for Vigilante or Rogue.

[starro]

I have always liked this discussion since live.  The developers did a great job making all the parties in Praetoria neither the direct translations of  the heroes or the villains in Paragon City/Rogue Isles.  Every Praetorian is a broken mirror of what is wrong and right.  All of Praetorians and their actions or motives are just a shade of grey (the phrase, not the crappy book).

 

The State is oppressive and limits society as resources are scarce and one misstep means the threat of the big monster at the gates destroys us all.  People are just a resource and if needed ground down to maintain the status quo.     Resistance is the heroes rightfully seeking the truth and if needed the ends justify the means  to oppress the oppressor -- but did you have to feed all those people in the police station to the zombies?   

[Astralock]

5 hours ago, Cybersbe said:

 

Uh... what? I really don't see the logic behind how you're tying each story line to alignment. Do you think the loyalists are the good guys or something? Because the whole "Praetoria is a mirror universe where the heroes are villains and vice versa" is not ENTIRELY inaccurate. This becomes especially clear when you play through said stories.

 

If you ask me:

 

Warden=Hero

Power=Villain

 

Crusader and Responsibility are not as easy to pin down, though. Crusaders are the dark side of the Resistance and Responsibility is the good side of the Loyalists. Crusaders arguably do lean Villain and Responsibility Hero, though. But depending on how you play, you could make a case for both of them qualifying for Vigilante or Rogue.

 

Responsibility tries to protect and serve the people and do good within the confines of the law and society.  Hero.

 

Power is all about him or herself.  You aren’t really evil, you just do good things for the wrong reasons.  Rogue.

 

Warden tries to protect and serve the people and do good, even if that means breaking the law and even going up against the law.  Vigilante.

 

Crusader is a nut job who is fine with blowing up hospitals, gassing people, kidnapping and murdering civilians, and feeding people to Ghouls.  Villains.

[Cybersbe]

1 hour ago, Astralock said:

 

Responsibility tries to protect and serve the people and do good within the confines of the law and society.  Hero.

 

Power is all about him or herself.  You aren’t really evil, you just do good things for the wrong reasons.  Rogue.

 

Warden tries to protect and serve the people and do good, even if that means breaking the law and even going up against the law.  Vigilante.

 

Crusader is a nut job who is fine with blowing up hospitals, gassing people, kidnapping and murdering civilians, and feeding people to Ghouls.  Villains.

 
Sounds like you think legal=good. Not true. You need to realize that Praetoria is effectively run by a Lawful Evil ruler who is indeed a villain, no matter how much he believes otherwise.

 

As far as I’m concerned, Warden wants to overthrow Cole’s regime, but do with a minimum loss of life. Furthermore, they care about Praetoria’s people. Killing for them is a last resort. They are conventional heroes, and NOT Vigilantes. The Vigilante Alignment has a “greater good” mentality. Their quests involve being willing to sacrifice innocent life to punish evil, which is contrary to what Wardens are about.

 

As for Power, they ARE evil. The whole theme of the Power story is abusing the law for your own ends in the name of further power for yourself. Heck, the story has you secretly START half the incidents you “solve”, so that the people see you as a hero. They don’t “do good for the wrong reasons”. They do EVIL while masquerading as good.
 

Furthermore, the Crusaders… honestly, they justify their actions with much the same reasoning as the Vigilantes. As for Responsibility, they do have to do some questionable actions to maintain the peace. (Killing a person who’s connections with Praetor White all but assure a fair arrest will just lead to them walking away free, arresting a man who ultimately just wants to save his daughter because he’s a leader of a crime syndicate and said daughter is in the Seer program, etc.) They’re closer to Vigilante and Rogue than what you said.

 

I would personally say

 

Crusader=Vigilante if they are serious about bringing down Cole, just willing to use extreme methods. Villain if simply an anarchist.

 

Responsibility=Hero if they want to be a diplomat for peace and convince Cole an invasion is unnecessary. Rogue if they are loyal enough to allow Cole’s invasion to go through.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Cybersbe