TerroirNoir's "Cable Channel of AE!" Reviews. Part 1.

[TerroirNoir2]

3 minutes ago, Zhym said:

only because I had your post to confirm that he was actually somewhere alive and not in one of the body bags.

Ha!  So the posts are useful beyond just reading!  Glad to be of service!

[cranebump]

Well…I’m just gonna make my case for that mish as is,*and here’s why: It’s hard to simulate the end of the world with a successful mission (you win! By the way, the world ended, but, yeah, you won! Everyone died, but you can feel good, because you WON! [pst…you didnt]). It has the timer to give a sense of futility. And it has to be short timer to get it out of the way so the subsequent story can start. This IS the outcome you’re trying to avoid. Rather than describe it, I’m trying to make you live it.
 

Bottom line: It’s a Kobayashi Maru. Full stop. It’s not supposed to be fair or winnable. I just wish the map was less smoky.

 

*bearing in mind that I tested all sorts of variations concerning timer lengths, boss chains, ambushes, etc. Peacock’s use of a jillion glowies works really well for his arc. But he isn’t doing the end of the world. I need fire and death and absolute futility. If it’s unsettling, well, that’s the point.

Edited November 7, 2022 by cranebump

[cranebump]

Note: keep an NPC dialog window open. If you see speech text, you know it’s not a body bag.

 

FYI: it’s “winnable,” but VERY, VERY difficult to do it in 10 minutes. I managed Pos, Zoria and 2 bossss, using a decent Incarnate. There’s also an ambush after boss #1. It’s ridiculously rough. And it needs about a 7-minute timer, due to the gd smoke.

Edited November 7, 2022 by cranebump

[TerroirNoir2]

I was getting the futility of it, but I was also leaning into the way I was thinking about reviewing it, so that colored my views.

[TerroirNoir2]

4 minutes ago, cranebump said:

Note: keep an NPC dialog window open. If you see speech text, you know it’s not a body bag.

 

FYI: it’s “winnable,” but VERY, VERY difficult to do it in 10 minutes. I managed Pos, Zoria and 2 bossss, using a decent Incarnate. There’s also an ambush after boss #1. It’s ridiculously rough. And it needs about a 7-minute timer, due to the gd smoke.

I suppose having a Find Target whatever Macro would help 🙂

 

 

[cranebump]

2 minutes ago, TerroirNoir2 said:

I was getting the futility of it, but I was also leaning into the way I was thinking about reviewing it, so that colored my views.

It’s possible I guess to drop both Positron and Zoria. Maybe just flood it with bosses but I’m not sure that’s any better. What it needs is a 5-minute timer, with a direct line to Pos (say 15 seconds). Then maybe 30-60 to get to Zoria. Then a Boss chain of infinite minions. I could use burning forest map, but doesn’t have the impact of Atlas. Ruined city has better visibility, but no fire. I think it needs smoke and fire, atmospherically.

[TerroirNoir2]

2 minutes ago, cranebump said:

It’s possible I guess to drop both Positron and Zoria. Maybe just flood it with bosses but I’m not sure that’s any better. What it needs is a 5-minute timer, with a direct line to Pos (say 15 seconds). Then maybe 30-60 to get to Zoria. Then a Boss chain of infinite minions. I could use burning forest map, but doesn’t have the impact of Atlas. Ruined city has better visibility, but no fire. I think it needs smoke and fire, atmospherically.

I think myself the issue with that map is basically where you start from.  If you appeared say nearer then of course it would be dangerous but you wouldn't be stuck in a corner.  I dunno.  I just play them! Engineria has no AEs to her credit!

[cranebump]

4 minutes ago, TerroirNoir2 said:

I suppose having a Find Target whatever Macro would help 🙂

 

 

Would that be nice. (Sigh) i ran that mish, man, I dunno how many times. I knew exactly what was going to happen, and still couldn’t always find Pos quickly. That was the 5-minute timer. So, I pushed to 10, and added Zoria gloating over his victory, thinking, “okay, so if you buzz around, you’re BOUND to find Pos in 5 minutes. Then Zoria in a couple, because maybe we’ve cleared the map some. But the sons of bitches just won’t pop up in the same spot.

 

(Anky’s the outdoor map guy. Not me, as this ably demonstrates)

[TerroirNoir2]

4 minutes ago, cranebump said:

(Anky’s the outdoor map guy. Not me, as this ably demonstrates)

Yeah, @Ankylosaur has a flair for those maps I've found. A definite skill!  Your stuff leans into sort of noir and odder, and I dunno what exactly @Darmian's is apart from really densely packed with detail even though it doesn't feel like that when I'm reading it.  

Edited November 7, 2022 by TerroirNoir2

[cranebump]

9 minutes ago, TerroirNoir2 said:

Yeah, @Ankylosaur has a flair for those maps I've found. A definite skill!  Your stuff leans into sort of noir and odder, and I dunno what exactly @Darmian's is apart from really densely packed with detail even though it doesn't feel like that when I'm reading it.  

Darm rewards you for paying attention, and gives you all sorts of clever Easter eggs, call backs, and throughlines pushing from start to finish. Everything is slick, meticulously executed, clean, clear, yet you look back, and there’s a ton going on. Just loads. Hard to see how he does that, but he does. I guess he’s Francis Coppola.
 

I haven’t played enough of Ankys stuff to comment on story, but I’ve run enough to say he’s the most technically proficient designer I’ve seen among us amateurs. I don’t think anyone else is even close. I guess he’s Stanley Kubrick.
 

I’m not good with the details or the framing. It’s all tone - highs and lows, bittersweet victories, sacrifice, and shades of gray. I think we’re all defined by our failures more so than our victories. And I think superheroes, were they real, would understand that better than anybody. Because you can’t save EVERYONE. That’s the tragedy. Great power will never be great enough. But a true hero keeps trying anyway. And that’s what it’s all about. 
 

Which makes me the guy with a decent script and no budget.:-)

[TerroirNoir2]

2 minutes ago, cranebump said:

Which makes me the guy with a decent script and no budget.:-)

So, Orson Welles then?  Or maybe John Huston!

[Zhym]

1 hour ago, cranebump said:

If it’s unsettling, well, that’s the point.

For me, it wasn't unsettling, just frustrating.  The time constraints are almost entirely due to the difficulty of finding spawns on a large open map.  I spent very little of the allotted 10 minutes doing anything other than hopping/flying around the map trying to figure out where Positron, Zoria, or the Dagons were.  That's not fun, it's not really story related, it's not unsettling, and it doesn't add tension.  It's just a frustrating artifact of random placement of spawns on a large open map.

 

And if it's clear that it's a no win scenario, that's one thing (although I don't think that's necessary for this mission—there are ways to complete a mission in a way that isn't really a "win" without getting the "Mission Failed!" message).  That wasn't clear to me in this mission.  And it's not always about "winning," the mission, either.  I'm sort of a completist; I want to see what happens if I defeat all the goals.  I think that atmosphere of that setting is more than enough to set up what you want to set up without having to "fail" the mission too. 

 

IMO, the end of the world is already unsettling; it doesn't need a timer.

 

1 hour ago, cranebump said:

Note: keep an NPC dialog window open. If you see speech text, you know it’s not a body bag.

My chat window displays all NPC text.  I didn't get any NPC text from Positron until I was right on top of him.  The NPC text didn't help me figure out what I was supposed to do at all.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Zhym

[Zhym]

To put it another way: is there anything about the first mission that makes running out of time an in-story plot element (or tells the player/character why time is a constraint)?  For example, having 10 minutes to disarm the Megamaguffin Bomb or the world ends makes story sense—the player knows why there's a timer and why not getting the thing done in time means mission failure.  But I didn't see anything about the mission that seemed time-sensitive other than the clock ticking down in my nav window.  And since the main time sink is hunting for spawns on the map, "The world ended because you couldn't figure out where the heck Baron Zoria was on the big map" is...well, it's not a great way to start a story arc IMO.     

 

Your story, of course; write it the way you want.  But for my part, I found that opening mission off-putting enough that I didn't really feel like continuing on with the rest of the arc.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Zhym

[cranebump]

The criticism of the timer not having a valid narrative reason to exist is legitimate. I cannot really justify Its existence other than to end the mission in case the player is stuck wandering all over the map. And further, since the last two players that have actually run through it have not been able to find the objectives quickly, or in one case not find them at all, then obviously I need to rethink this from the ground floor.

 

So the first thing I’m going to do is get rid of that map. I obviously knew there was an issue with it which is why I put a timer on that thing in the first place. So we are going to get rid of that.

 

Second, because the difficulty in finding objectives will be fixed, I can reconsider use of a timer, since it was only there to keep the original mission from going on for too long. With that in mind, and in consideration of the feedback I have received, I believe I have a way to write the text in such a way that the player can “succeed“ in the mission while realizing that the end of the world is nigh. If I have this right then this should fix the issues for the players, while maintaining the idea I’m striving for. ( @Zhym: I'll let you know when I've fixed it, so you can give it another run, if you want. It should be less complicated, since a) writing a possible fail actually takes more time, and b) map should be considerably smaller).
 

The short version of this is I picked a map that I could not make work, and was trying to make it work anyway. Once I take the map out of the equation, I’m not forced to make mechanical choices that are inconsistent, illogical, or just plain annoying.

 

All that said, I’m not going to promise that I won’t use a timer in the future. So if the Contact says “you better hurry“ then you better actually hurry. 🙂

Edited November 7, 2022 by cranebump

[cranebump]

P.S. at some point I’m going to go back and rewrite the text for if Comrade is rescued to having him lapse into a coma as he delivers his message. So there will then be a difference if he’s saved. Now, I do think it’s better narrative to have someone put a bullet in his head, but that doesn’t have to be the end result no matter how malicious and bloodthirsty I feel about it.:-)

Edited November 7, 2022 by cranebump

[Darmian]

18 minutes ago, cranebump said:

P.S. at some point I’m going to go back and rewrite the text for if Comrade is rescued to having him lapse into a coma as he delivers his message. So there will then be a difference if he’s saved. Now, I do think it’s better narrative to have someone put a bullet in his head, but that doesn’t have to be the end result no matter how malicious and bloodthirsty I feel about it.:-)

CLONE HEEM!

[cranebump]

10 hours ago, TerroirNoir2 said:

So, Orson Welles then?  Or maybe John Huston!

Well, see those guys actually have talent.:-) 

 

When it comes to writing, I follow this (fictional) response (from Bob Dylan to Jimmy Thudpucker):

[Zhym]

3 hours ago, cranebump said:

So the first thing I’m going to do is get rid of that map. I obviously knew there was an issue with it which is why I put a timer on that thing in the first place. So we are going to get rid of that.

 

Second, because the difficulty in finding objectives will be fixed, I can reconsider use of a timer, since it was only there to keep the original mission from going on for too long. With that in mind, and in consideration of the feedback I have received, I believe I have a way to write the text in such a way that the player can “succeed“ in the mission while realizing that the end of the world is nigh. If I have this right then this should fix the issues for the players, while maintaining the idea I’m striving for. ( @Zhym: I'll let you know when I've fixed it, so you can give it another run, if you want. It should be less complicated, since a) writing a possible fail actually takes more time, and b) map should be considerably smaller).
 

The short version of this is I picked a map that I could not make work, and was trying to make it work anyway. Once I take the map out of the equation, I’m not forced to make mechanical choices that are inconsistent, illogical, or just plain annoying.

Thanks; I think that all makes sense.  That map is really cool, but it works better in developer missions like the LRSF where the author can place mobs in exact locations.  In AE, where the author is at the mercy of random placement, that map isn't well suited to a "find the spawn, then find the next spawn" mission.  It's not that the map itself is huge, it's just that it's unstructured and hard to search.  The expectations we've built in regular missions—i.e., that the boss will be at the end of the map, or that spawns will be somewhere around the ruins of City Hall—don't hold. 

 

3 hours ago, cranebump said:

All that said, I’m not going to promise that I won’t use a timer in the future. So if the Contact says “you better hurry“ then you better actually hurry. 🙂

 

One suggestion on this point: maybe include a warning that the next mission is timed before the player accepts the mission?  I've usually seen that as in-character text—for example, in some of Unai Kemen's missions, he tells you that you'll only have 90 minutes because the dimension is unstable, the portal can only be held open that long, or whatever.  But you could also include an OOC warning at the bottom of the pre-acceptance mission text.  Anything that tells the player that "you'd better hurry" isn't just flavor text and now would be a good time to do anything that needs to get done in the next 10/15/30 minutes.      

Edited November 7, 2022 by Zhym

[cranebump]

10 minutes ago, Zhym said:

Thanks; I think that all makes sense.  That map is really cool, but it works better in developer missions like the LRSF where the author can place mobs in exact locations.  In AE, where the author is at the mercy of random placement, that map isn't well suited to a "find the spawn, then find the next spawn" mission.  It's not that the map itself is huge, it's just that it's unstructured and hard to search.  The expectations we've built in regular missions—i.e., that the boss will be at the end of the map, or that spawns will be somewhere around the ruins of City Hall—don't hold.    

It's also waaaaay out of my comfort zone. I've used a few outdoor maps here and there, but, most of the time, it's just not in my wheelhouse (and it shows). All of them strike me as pretty good for "Gather X/# of ___________," or "Close the Portals! (54 to go)." Multiple copies of single items (MCSI).

 

Reminds me: early on, when I tried to do these MCSI's (4 Computers to go!), @Kyksie (who used to review these things regularly) hammered me on needless glowies. He was right, so I amended that practice, to the point where I haven't done many since (if at all).

 

I still haven't completely gotten away from breaking the ocelot rule, though.:-)

[Zhym]

11 minutes ago, cranebump said:

All of them strike me as pretty good for "Gather X/# of ___________," or "Close the Portals! (54 to go)." Multiple copies of single items (MCSI).

I think you're right about that.  The big open maps work well with glowies because the glowies are visible from quite a ways away.  Open maps can actually be better for glowy hunts than indoor maps.  And outdoor maps aren't completely awful for "defeat the boss" missions because you can still tab-target until you find the boss.  They're horrible for rescue missions, though, or any other mission where you have to find a non-hostile, because you can't tab-target the non-hostiles and they appear in groups of mobs that aren't easily distinguishable from other groups of mobs.  Basically, if a mission has a narrative structure within the mission (defeat this, then talk to that, then do X), an open map isn't going to work well in AE. 

 

11 minutes ago, cranebump said:

I still haven't completely gotten away from breaking the ocelot rule, though.:-)

I'm not familiar with this.  What's the ocelot rule?

Edited November 7, 2022 by Zhym

[cranebump]

5 minutes ago, Zhym said:

I'm not familiar with this.  What's the ocelot rule?

Speaking or thinking for the character. Like instead of accept text, Listen to Positron, you have the character speak (Just tell me where to go!). 

 

I'm not sure where he got the term.

[Zhym]

3 minutes ago, cranebump said:

Speaking or thinking for the character. Like instead of accept text, Listen to Positron, you have the character speak (Just tell me where to go!). 

 

I'm not sure where he got the term.

Ah, yes.  Makes sense—I know my character's voice, thoughts, and reactions better than a story author does, and it can be jarring when a mission gets it wrong. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Zhym

[Ankylosaur]

On 11/6/2022 at 9:12 PM, cranebump said:

a direct line to Pos (say 15 seconds).

 

Ah - the spirit guide conversation with @Zhym has cropped up again. 🙂

 

That map has a lot of "rescue" spots. I sometimes use local friendly escorts to help you pinpoint a target and save the endless wandering.

 

@cranebump - if you want to try it, set the map to empty and the escorts to empty/non-combat with the destination of Positron. If the player stumbles into one of the escorts, they get a waypoint marker.

 

End of the world? Use the ghosts mob and you get random dead spirits who want to get vengeance by pointing the way for you.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Ankylosaur

[cranebump]

7 hours ago, Ankylosaur said:

 

Ah - the spirit guide conversation with @Zhym has cropped up again. 🙂

 

That map has a lot of "rescue" spots. I sometimes use local friendly escorts to help you pinpoint a target and save the endless wandering.

 

At @cranebump - if you want to try it, set the map to empty and the escorts to empty/non-combat with the destination of Positron. If the player stumbles into one of the escorts, they get a waypoint marker.

 

End of the world? Use the ghosts mob and you get random dead spirits who want to get vengeance by pointing the way for you.

Ended up going with something else already. But that escort trick might come in handy in other circumstances. Thanks for the tip!

[TerroirNoir2]

On 11/7/2022 at 3:47 PM, Zhym said:

Ah, yes.  Makes sense—I know my character's voice, thoughts, and reactions better than a story author does, and it can be jarring when a mission gets it wrong. 

I don't like that thing either, but there are moments where @Darmian breaks that rule and it seems to work!  Like @cranebump said about other stuff, hard to see how he does it but he does.  I dunno.

Edited November 8, 2022 by TerroirNoir2