Defiler (Melee/Support AT)

[Jeuraud]

You could say it's the wrong argument but I'm questioning why it wouldn't want to draw attention to itself, especially considering the parallel we're drawing is a Paladin type.

 

The OP specifically stated that they were not thinking of a Paladin type.

 

I was thinking more of a Shadow Knight or Beastlord type class from EQ1 more than Paladin.

 

And need I remind you, the OP's vision is unclear.

 

I found the OP's vision to be quite clear.

 

As far as *this* particular AT is concerned, with Stalker defensive values and MM support values, they'd hardly be overpowered.

 

The Defiler definitely needs some defense, Stalker levels are enough to make them survive in the chaos of an 8 man team while also preventing them from being able to take the alpha like a Tanker or Brute.

 

You were the one making things unclear.

 

They don't know whether to have placate in taunts place or not.

 

The way I read this,

 

One problem with the Defiler would be what to do with Taunt, since this AT does not want to draw attention to itself under any circumstance.

 

is that the OP is positive that they do not want Taunt in this AT, they just don't know what to put into its slot, thus opening it up for brainstorming.

 

'm making the argument that the AT shouldn't want to shy away from aggro especially considering the ridiculous tricks a support-type can pull off RIGHT NOW to shirk off attacks.

 

Support has Buffs, Debuffs and Heals, and many of the Buffs do not affect them, or they have to be in the MOBs face to be affected by them. Kinetics's, That Which Shall Not Be Named power, the power that everyone wants, is one of those powers. Kinetics's, SB and IR do not affect them at all, a couple more powers that everyone wants, especially now that IR no longer slows you. Hells all of the powers that Kinetics can benefit from requires To Hit, and there is no -Def, or +Acc in the set.

 

Are the 'ridiculous tricks' that allows Support specifically, to 'shirk off' attacks, any more ridiculous than Melee Armors, or Controller CCs, or MM Pets? Also how well do these 'ridiculous tricks' work when they are doing face time with the MOBs

 

As for this thread, how about you state that the OP's vision does not fit yours, then write up and post a Paladin type Support/Melee (In your own thread.), instead of trying to hijack the OP's thread.

[Replacement]

I think with the right Inherent we could make it an 8/9 with maybe a few exceptions (Empathy leaps to mind), as long as some of the ported powers are adjusted for either better uptime or self coverage.  This might not be the ideal implementation, but what I'd rather see is for the AT to start with five or so solid secondaries (FF, Sonic, Dark, Time, and Nature come to mind) that take the least amount of work to massage over and an Inherent that works for them and anticipates sets like Thermal, Cold, and Storm.

 

This is where I'm at!  Focus on making a few good sets that are diverse but can be ported; extrapolate and find identity from there.  The stumbling block is that a melee/support needs some way to buff themselves, but simply meshing in armor powers is too "I can do everything."  Tweaks to their powers to make buffs pbaoe is the simplest path forward.  It also makes them feel distinct from the other Support-capable ATs.

 

Disclosure: I do not care about building a Paladin.  That's maybe 30th on my list of things I'd want a melee/support AT for.

[Rikis]

I will correct a mistake I made. I'm using only EQ1 classes as examples because I can't think of any other MMO that provides a template for Melee Support. I erroneously mentioned Shadow Knights earlier, but they are tanks too. So no, I regret typing that. Not the Shadow Knight.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of the EQ1 Ranger, Bard, or Beastlord. Those are classes in that game that hang out in melee focusing on DPS, but provide support (or used, I can't speak to modern EQ1, I'm talking circa 2002-2004) via buffs or debuffs. Yes, both Paladins and Shadow Knights also provide support, but they focus on tanking.

 

I have played this game and attempted a melee Corruptor way back when on Live, around 2005-06 (before I knew much about the game). I quickly learned it wasn't feasible, and I'm not talking about the paltry damage of the melee attacks from the pool powers. I'm talking that hanging out in the melee without any armor or status protection meant a quick death. I just don't see a Melee/Support working without some defensive powers. Sacrificing the ally only powers made the most sense.

[Jeuraud]

Going back over my posts I realized that I got a bit argumentative and never said that I like the OP's vision of a Melee/Support.

 

Well I do and here are some ideas I've come up with.

 

One of the things I have always hated about the Armor sets is having that first slot be an armor. Armor at this level is fairly useless, and until you can slot it with some Lev 20 Es remains fairly useless. Also it's a passive, making you look elsewhere for something to do.

 

What I would like to see in the first spot of Support is an active Buff-Debuff, and then a Heal in the second spot, and then the first armor in the third spot.

 

 

I think I mentioned this in passing, but I would like to see a Teleport Attack, with a chance for knockdown, in the Taunt spot of Melee.

 

 

I've also mentioned this before but I feel the Interceptor is going to be an agro magnet and I think the inherent needs to address this.

 

What I'm thinking is that the inherent be like the Dominator's, but instead of being based upon how much you hit, based upon how much you are hit, and unlike the fricken click of the Dominator, at some point it goes off automatically (Supposedly before you die.), and activates a PBAoE Placate.

 

I really hate the click of the Dominator, because I'm never sure if I should use it now, or later, and as an Altaholic I dont think about after perma, I think about the ride to it. This being said, being pounded buy numerous MOBs and almost dead is a fairly easy measure of when to use the PBAoE Placate, so a click might work for this inherent.

[jack_nomind]

As far as I can tell, it's because you feel it wouldn't be able to perform a particular job but you don't follow up on why you believe that is.

 

The jobs I think direct porting accomplishes over the OP's initial proposal are implementability and maintenence.  It's much less of a headache to implement or maintain five nearly identical versions of Insulation Shield than it is to have four Insulation Shields and one Insulating Shield, a personal armor power that works similarly to Battle Agility.

 

Have you considered the balancing required to have a Darkest Night toggle on yourself at all times?

 

Why yes, I have, thank you. 

 

You can simply take powers and then flag them as a powerset, you'd just need to set the groundwork for them (i.e. the AT mods and custom code that recognizes a powerset's existance).  If Controller can change a couple powers in a set and just rename it into something else, I don't think you need to unduly box yourself into a specific context with only a handful of joints to adjust it with.  It's even possible to have more than 9 powers in a set!

 

Anything's possible with enough time and money.  We could create walls, and then redo every level design to use them rather than map boundaries.  We could replace Enhancements and enhanceable attributes with a traditional system of STR/DEX/MAG/etc and give characters gear slots.  We could nerf Titan Weapons.  Unfortunately our budget is zero.

 

In my experience, the more conservative the approach is, the easier it generally is to sell the proposal and to get it done when it's approved.

 

I do think a really good unique proposal would be absolutely worth considering despite the headache; it adds enough in gameplay to justify the cost to me, and I'd work harder to sell it.  The Duo (linked earlier) does that; functionally squashing armor sets down into 5/9 and adding four custom support powers (or etc) IMHO does not.

 

Disclosure: I do not care about building a Paladin.  That's maybe 30th on my list of things I'd want a melee/support AT for.

 

As far as D&D classes go, my mental template is the Marshal, but that's less iconically recognized. 

[Rikis]

My original draft for this idea did have some custom made powers for the secondary. I decided against it because of the implementation limitations (despite the fact that any new AT right now is a fevered dream really), which is why I limited myself to mixing the armor/support powersets as I wrote them up there in the OP.

 

For example, originally, the Storm Efflux didn't have Gale as the Tier 2 power, but it had "O2 Booster", a chain heal that started from the player. It would have used the same particle effect as the Protector Bot heal. Or for Fiery Efflux, instead of Melt Armor at T9, there was "Heat of the Forge", a "siphon" power that decreased the target's Defense and Resistance and increased the player's Damage and ToHit.

[Jeuraud]

Disclosure: I do not care about building a Paladin.  That's maybe 30th on my list of things I'd want a melee/support AT for.

 

As far as D&D classes go, my mental template is the Marshal, but that's less iconically recognized.

 

My image of the Interceptor is the Vanguard Disciple. A fun class to play, I just did not like how group focused Vanguard was.

 

[Leogunner]

You could say it's the wrong argument but I'm questioning why it wouldn't want to draw attention to itself, especially considering the parallel we're drawing is a Paladin type.

 

The OP specifically stated that they were not thinking of a Paladin type.

 

But WE are not the OP.  Just because I thought to use some of the ideas from the OP's suggestion doesn't mean WE can't or haven't brought up our own points and ideas.

 

And need I remind you, the OP's vision is unclear.

 

I found the OP's vision to be quite clear.

 

As far as *this* particular AT is concerned, with Stalker defensive values and MM support values, they'd hardly be overpowered.

 

The Defiler definitely needs some defense, Stalker levels are enough to make them survive in the chaos of an 8 man team while also preventing them from being able to take the alpha like a Tanker or Brute.

 

You were the one making things unclear.

 

So now we're quote mining?

 

Maybe replace it with Placate (with regular stealth to avoid its crit mechanic) or Power Build Up? I also have no idea what to do with its inherent, maybe something akin to Defender's Vigilance. Instead, while solo the defensive power values go up to above Brute level, below Tanker level and while teamed the secondary values to Controller level or maybe an endurance discount on the secondaries? Again, no clue.

 

And I'd remind you to retain the context of things you quote.  My post you quoted was directly speaking about placate vs taunt vs something else and the inherent role of the AT.

 

And just for clarity's sake, quote mining is taking specific quotes out of context and then arguing the points from there.  It's cheap.  It's a waste of time. It's petty.

 

Are the 'ridiculous tricks' that allows Support specifically, to 'shirk off' attacks, any more ridiculous than Melee Armors, or Controller CCs, or MM Pets? Also how well do these 'ridiculous tricks' work when they are doing face time with the MOBs

 

Firstly, what the hell does Melee Armor and Controller CC and MM pets have to do with if someone wants aggro or not for this AT?  It's irrelevant.

 

The point is, support CAN do it so WHY would they want to avoid "face time with the MOBs" especially considering ALL their attacks are melee?

 

As for this thread, how about you state that the OP's vision does not fit yours, then write up and post a Paladin type Support/Melee (In your own thread.), instead of trying to hijack the OP's thread.

 

And I'll end it by saying you're making absolutely no sense.  Your arguments are out of context, you can't keep track of what we're talking about and then you've stooped to accusing folks of derailing when I'm actually engaging the discussing points brought up (i.e. the ATs role, replacing/changing taunt, etc).  You've tried to skirt your argument into a position to try to make it seem like I don't like the OPs ideas just because you don't agree with my statements about keeping taunt in the set.  You're attempting to set me against the OP here so that people will try to disagree with me.  Pretty lame.

 

 

[Leogunner]

I'd remind you that this:

 

 

The jobs I think direct porting accomplishes over the OP's initial proposal are implementability and maintenence.  It's much less of a headache to implement or maintain five nearly identical versions of Insulation Shield than it is to have four Insulation Shields and one Insulating Shield, a personal armor power that works similarly to Battle Agility.

 

contradicts this:

Have you considered the balancing required to have a Darkest Night toggle on yourself at all times?

 

Why yes, I have, thank you. 

 

 

If your argument to my point is this:

You can simply take powers and then flag them as a powerset, you'd just need to set the groundwork for them (i.e. the AT mods and custom code that recognizes a powerset's existance).  If Controller can change a couple powers in a set and just rename it into something else, I don't think you need to unduly box yourself into a specific context with only a handful of joints to adjust it with.  It's even possible to have more than 9 powers in a set!

 

Anything's possible with enough time and money.  We could create walls, and then redo every level design to use them rather than map boundaries.  We could replace Enhancements and enhanceable attributes with a traditional system of STR/DEX/MAG/etc and give characters gear slots.  We could nerf Titan Weapons.  Unfortunately our budget is zero.

 

In my experience, the more conservative the approach is, the easier it generally is to sell the proposal and to get it done when it's approved.

 

It's a good point to remind people of when making suggestions but I'm not oblivious to the point and it can also used against your Self-targeted Darkest Night which will end up being a new power with new values and mechanics.  It is no different from just replacing a power in the set with, say, an armor/mez resist toggle that already exists in the Dark Armor set.

 

 

[jack_nomind]

My image of the Interceptor is the Vanguard Disciple. A fun class to play, I just did not like how group focused Vanguard was.

 

I'm not familiar with that game, but yeah, that looks pretty paladin-ish.  How do they deal with the action economy issue?  (i.e., how does the class mix healing with attacks without being terrible at both?)

[Jeuraud]

My image of the Interceptor is the Vanguard Disciple. A fun class to play, I just did not like how group focused Vanguard was.

 

I'm not familiar with that game, but yeah, that looks pretty paladin-ish.  How do they deal with the action economy issue?  (i.e., how does the class mix healing with attacks without being terrible at both?)

 

For me, Paladin-ish means a heavy armor wearer, who has spell or spell like abilities. The Disciple is a medium armor wearer, which is how I see the Interceptor.

 

The heals, buffs, and debuffs are PBAoE built into the attacks. They support the front line heavies by getting up there with them, but being they wear medium armor they do not want to pull aggro from the heavies.

 

Something to note, when I say 'do not want to pull aggro', I'm not talking about one or even two MOBs, I'm talking about pulling the group or even most of the group.

 

How well they do at upper levels I've no clue, both because I'm an Altaholic, and I'm not willing to play an MMO that pretty much forces me to group.

[Pbuckley818]

On 6/9/2019 at 9:12 PM, Rikis said:

Defiler - A close range combatant that weakens her foes and strengthens his allies.

Primary: Melee Sets (Stalker Values - no crit)  --- Secondary: Buff/Debuff and Armor Hybrid (MM Values)

Not entirely my original idea on the secondaries.

If you want to play a support, you pretty much have to stick to range. Or go Mastermind. Or use only power pool attacks (for the lulz). Don't really care for Assault being its primary, enough Dominators stay Ranged only and the idea of this AT is for players to get in the thick of things.

 

One problem with the Defiler would be what to do with Taunt, since this AT does not want to draw attention to itself under any circumstance. Maybe replace it with Placate (with regular stealth to avoid its crit mechanic) or Power Build Up? I also have no idea what to do with its inherent, maybe something akin to Defender's Vigilance. Instead, while solo the defensive power values go up to above Brute level, below Tanker level and while teamed the secondary values to Controller level or maybe an endurance discount on the secondaries? Again, no clue.

 

The idea of the secondaries is to avoid any ally only powers and any damaging auras and as many of the damaging powers as possible. It does have to include the status protections though.

 

Examples of Secondaries:

Storm Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Charged Armor

T2 (Level 2) Gale

T3 (Level 4) Snow Storm

T4 (Level 10) Conductive Shield

T5 (Level 16) Static Shield

T6 (Level 20) Steamy Mist

T7 (Level 28) Lightning Reflexes

T8 (Level 35) Grounded

T9 (Level 38) Freezing Rain

 

Dark Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Dark Embrace

T2 (Level 2) Twilight Grasp

T3 (Level 4) Tar Patch

T4 (Level 10) Murky Cloud

T5 (Level 16) Obsidian Shield

T6 (Level 20) Shadow Fall

T7 (Level 28) Dark Regeneration

T8 (Level 35) Darkest Night

T9 (Level 38) Soul Transfer

 

Nature Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Hardened Carapace

T2 (Level 2) Regrowth

T3 (Level 4) Corrosive Enzymes

T4 (Level 10) Adaptation

T5 (Level 16) Environmental Modification

T6 (Level 20) Spore Cloud

T7 (Level 28) Lifegiving Spores

T8 (Level 35) Evolving Armor

T9 (Level 38) Wild Bastion

 

Fiery Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Fire Shield

T2 (Level 2) Warmth

T3 (Level 4) Temperature Protection

T4 (Level 10) Plasma Shield

T5 (Level 16) Consume

T6 (Level 20) Rise of the Phoenix

T7 (Level 28) Fiery Embrace

T8 (Level 35) Heat Exhaustion

T9 (Level 38) Melt Armor

 

Cold Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Frozen Armor

T2 (Level 2) Infrigidate

T3 (Level 4) Snow Storm

T4 (Level 10) Glacial Armor

T5 (Level 16) Wet Ice

T6 (Level 20) Chilling Embrace

T7 (Level 28) Hoarfrost

T8 (Level 35) Benumb

T9 (Level 38) Sleet

 

Time Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Focused Fighting

T2 (Level 2) Temporal Mending

T3 (Level 4) Time Crawl

T4 (Level 10) Focused Senses

T5 (Level 16) Practiced Brawler

T6 (Level 20) Time's Juncture

T7 (Level 28) Evasion

T8 (Level 35) Slowed Response

T9 (Level 38) Chrono Shift

 

Radiation Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Alpha Barrier

T2 (Level 2) Radiant Aura

T3 (Level 4) Radiation Infection

T4 (Level 10) Proton Armor

T5 (Level 16) Fallout Shelter

T6 (Level 20) Accelerate Metabolism

T7 (Level 28) Gamma Boost

T8 (Level 35) Enervating Field

T9 (Level 38) Lingering Radiation

 

Kinetic Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Kinetic Shield

T2 (Level 2) Transfusion

T3 (Level 4) Siphon Power

T4 (Level 10) Power Shield

T5 (Level 16) Entropic Aura

T6 (Level 20) Siphon Speed

T7 (Level 28) Inertial Reduction

T8 (Level 35) Dampening Field

T9 (Level 38) Transference

 

Trick Training -

T1 (Level 1) Ninja Reflexes

T2 (Level 2) Flash Arrow

T3 (Level 4) Glue Arrow

T4 (Level 10) Danger Sense

T5 (Level 16) Kuji-in Rin

T6 (Level 20) Poison Gas Arrow

T7 (Level 28) Acid Arrow

T8 (Level 35) Shinobi-Iri

T9 (Level 38) Disruption Arrow

 

Shield Device -

T1 (Level 1) Deflection

T2 (Level 2) Triage Beacon

T3 (Level 4) Caltrops

T4 (Level 10) Battle Agility

T5 (Level 16) Active Defense

T6 (Level 20) Acid Mortar

T7 (Level 28) True Grit

T8 (Level 35) Grant Cover

T9 (Level 38) Seeker Drones

 

Willful Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Mind over Body

T2 (Level 2) Nullify Pain

T3 (Level 4) High Pain Tolerence

T4 (Level 10) Quick Recovery

T5 (Level 16) Indomitable Will

T6 (Level 20) World of Pain

T7 (Level 28) Heightened Senses

T8 (Level 35) Soothing Aura

T9 (Level 38) Anguishing Cry

 

As a long time lover of storm summoning, I feel I must protest. Why would you get rid of O2 boost but keep Gale? Gale is situational already, but on a melee AT you might as well be giving them a self Debuff.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Pbuckley818

[Some Random User]

On 6/10/2019 at 1:29 PM, Chance Jackson said:

On 6/10/2019 at 12:41 AM, Steampunkette said:

Could we swap the Primary powerset from Melee to Assault?  More character variety that way instead of yet another Melee AT.

 

Brute, scrapper, stalker, tank

Blaster, defender, corruptor

Dominator

 

Needs Moar assault!

 

this

Why can't we just make an Archetype by doing to the Dominator what was done to the Defender (to get the Corrupter)? Take the Primary and the Secondary and flip them. Assault/Support. No fuss, no muss.

 

On this part I'm just spitballing. Model their Passive on the little known "bruise" mechanic that certain Tanker powers get: Every time you make an Accuracy check against a foe you also get to auto-hit with a small-but-stacking To-Hit debuff on them. Maybe 5% per Accuracy check, and max out the debuff at 17.5%?