Melee Powerset Comparison

[Ston]

Lately I've been curious about how melee sets compare to each other across all ATs (except stalker, for now). I've been doing a lot of Trapdoor testing the past 2 years on Homecoming and decided to use it as a benchmark for this test (lots of runs posted on my Youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkPFdm3IxdIW6PdxApy55ng). After some discussion with Galaxy Brain, I decided to use Willpower for this test as it is the set that has the least impact on your damage output. 

The parameters for this test are as follows:

- "Track Down Trapdoor" mission set at +4/x8
    - Best two times recorded for each build (using the top two times and throwing out the others to account for getting better with the powerset with more practice)
- Inspirations allowed: Oranges, Blues, Greens (Choosing to ignore survivability and just test the damage output from melee sets. Using these inspirations will keep me alive but still allow me to be debuffed, unlike purple inspirations)
- Standard build:
    - Identical choices & slotting for all Willpower and pool powers
    - 90% recharge resistances on all builds
- Same Incarnate powers:
    - Tankers/Scrappers: Musc Radial, Reactive Radial, Ageless Core, Assault (Passive)
    - Brutes: Vigor Core, Reactive Radial, Ageless Core, Assault (Passive) (Brutes benefit more from endurance/accuracy enhancements)
 

Results:

Melee_Test.xlsx

 

 

 

 

***Disclaimers***
- I don't claim these are the best way to build these combos. My goal for this test was to get a baseline for performance across melee ATs using my personal playstyle. Open to any suggestions or feedback on how to improve these results! 
- Some builds may not be correct, please send me a message and I will fix them. 

***Note***
- Willpower has the weakest taunt aura of any Scrapper set. This will cause Scrapper times to be lower than Bio/Rad/Shield relative to their Tanker/Brute counterparts. I think this is a good thing since not all Scrapper secondaries get a taunt aura. Willpower ends up being a nice benchmark between taunt aura and no taunt aura.

 

Discord: @Ston#0707

Edited December 8, 2022 by Ston

[Psyonico]

That's actually very interesting.  I wonder why there is such a large discrepancy between Savage Melee and Psi melee

[Ston]

9 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

That's actually very interesting.  I wonder why there is such a large discrepancy between Savage Melee and Psi melee

 

Savage has very efficient AoEs. It’s probably the best AoE set on average and can but together a ST chain good enough to kill bosses.

 

I found Psi Melee to be very frustrating. Mass Levitate can throw mobs to inconvenient spots. So you spend more time positioning your follow up attacks. It has very good ST attacks though.. just kind of fights against itself. Insight is also a very controversial. 

[Oysterhead]

That is very interesting! I'll have to dig into your builds some. Obviously Trapdoor favors personal AoE damage, where in group situations single target damage may be more impactful, but since I personally like doing big area numbers this is handy!

Seeing Savage at the top took me aback a bit, but also nice to see, I know when I play Savage characters (especially on tank) it feels amazing, hitting so many things with big area attacks constantly. Do you think the teleport attack to lead off helped some there too? Martial Arts being that high and Energy Melee being so low are the other stand outs. MA's single PBAoE putting in a lot of work there?

[Ston]

22 minutes ago, Oysterhead said:

That is very interesting! I'll have to dig into your builds some. Obviously Trapdoor favors personal AoE damage, where in group situations single target damage may be more impactful, but since I personally like doing big area numbers this is handy!

Seeing Savage at the top took me aback a bit, but also nice to see, I know when I play Savage characters (especially on tank) it feels amazing, hitting so many things with big area attacks constantly. Do you think the teleport attack to lead off helped some there too? Martial Arts being that high and Energy Melee being so low are the other stand outs. MA's single PBAoE putting in a lot of work there?

 

AoE is important for this test but I think ST has a role too. You need a decent ST chain to kill enemies with resistance like Warwolves and Mu Mystics (and Trapdoor, of course). I think this is why Spines doesn’t rank higher. 

 

I don’t think the TP helps as much as the increased radius on Rending Flurry does. I usually use the TP attack in the middle of a group anyway. 

 

But yeah I think MA is deceptively good for AoE. It only has one AoE but it animates fast and almost always procs FF, so you can use it over and over. IMO it’s a better version of Foot Stomp. 

 

Energy Melee is hard to measure the value of. It’s by far the best set for killing bosses on teams. But it has mid-tier sustained DPS and bad AoE. So it suffers in solo x8 environments. I would treat it the same way I treat stalkers: only use it to kill bosses on teams. It’s just not going to win any trapdoor or pylon races. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Ston

[PLVRIZR]

1 hour ago, Ston said:

MA is deceptively good for AOE /snip/ ...IMO it’s a better version of Foot Stomp. 

 

While I will not argue the effectiveness or DPS or any other calculable metric, there is very little in this game as viscerally satisfying as a Super Strength tank executing Foot Stomp 😁

Edited December 8, 2022 by PLVRIZR
reworded

[InvaderStych]

What happened here?

 

 

Tanker Fiery Melee bringing the outlier.

[Ston]

Just now, InvaderStych said:

What happened here?

 

 

Tanker Fiery Melee bringing the outlier.

 

Combustion.

Seriously, FSC + Combustion absolutely melts stuff on Tankers. I'm sure it would be #1 on Brutes and Scrappers if they had it too. Gloom/GFS/FS is a very decent ST chain too.

[Astralock]

It’s both a little sad and disgusting that Tanker holds the two fastest times.  Clearly Tankers are not overpowered. /s

[Ston]

17 minutes ago, Astralock said:

It’s both a little sad and disgusting that Tanker holds the two fastest times.  Clearly Tankers are not overpowered. /s

 

While also being the sturdiest… Didn’t need inspirations on any Tanker runs. 

 

The Brutes needed a few small oranges or greens most of their runs. And the Scrappers pretty much needed to constantly have a large orange active.

 

Tankers do WAY too much damage for their survivability.  Would’ve had to sacrifice a good amount of damage on the other ATs to make them sturdier. 

[Astralock]

3 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

While also being the sturdiest… Didn’t need inspirations on any Tanker runs. 

 

The Brutes needed a few small oranges or greens most of their runs. And the Scrappers pretty much needed to constantly have a large orange active.

 

Tankers do WAY too much damage for their survivability.  Would’ve had to sacrifice a good amount of damage on the other ATs to make them sturdier. 

 

Agreed.  IMO, Tanker damage modifiers need to go back to where they were when Homecoming launched.  Their increased AoE and radius are fine, it's their damage modifiers that need to be reversed.

[JasperStone]

I am stunned about Ice Melee.

[Ston]

5 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

I am stunned about Ice Melee.

 

I think it’s pretty under appreciated! Freezing Touch is one of the best ST attacks IMO, perfect for Crit Strikes. 

 

Frost and Frozen Aura can put out a lot of cold damage in a wide area, which isn’t commonly resisted.  And then Ice Patch will keep enemies in place to make sure they’re all getting hit with AoE damage. Frost is even good for ST damage 😁

[JasperStone]

2 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

I think it’s pretty under appreciated! Freezing Touch is one of the best ST attacks IMO, perfect for Crit Strikes. 

 

Frost and Frozen Aura can put out a lot of cold damage in a wide area, which isn’t commonly resisted.  And then Ice Patch will keep enemies in place to make sure they’re all getting hit with AoE damage. Frost is even good for ST damage 😁

Well I have an Ice/Ice/Ice tanker as a main and love it. Rebuilt from time on Live

Just did not realize how good

[Psyonico]

50 minutes ago, PLVRIZR said:

While I will not argue the effectiveness or DPS or any other calculable metric, there is very little in this game as viscerally satisfying as a Super Strength tank executing Foot Stomp 😁

 

I partially like the ground punch varient

[Oysterhead]

Ice Melee did not surprise me. Coming from mostly stalkers, Ice Melee is already considered top tier if not top. Cold damage + nice, well rounded set of ST and AoE attacks. It lacks the satisfying "crunch" of some other sets outside of Frozen Aura's footstomp, but still great.

Claws blender mode sitting high across the board makes sense (if/until you run these for Stalker where accepted wisdom is it'd be near bottom) and is good to see too, another set I think is often assumed lower performing than it is.

Also, I totally missed that Tanker Fiery Melee has its own special area attack... Definitely just bumped way up my list of next things to try.

[DrunkFlux]

Whats funny is that, I do agree tankers are probably to good, it's hard for me to think about where they should be in damage.  The trouble is, before the buff, tankers were objectively inferior to brutes; brutes had the same max damage resistances as a tanker and yet better damage.  When you look at high rank IO's and also consider buffs from teammates, brutes end up on-par with tankers in terms of durability.  This created a major problem; Tankers were easily, and justifiably, seen as brutes on training wheels.  It was on live, considered by many experts of the game to be the weakest archtype in teams.

 

The same problem occured with sentinels, they were effectively blasters on training wheels before the buff.  Only difference is, tankers bring more utility than sentinels do, with higher agro control and, well, stronger AoE power.

 

So nerfing the damage back to pre-homecoming may seem tempting, it could be disasterous in that, it'd just relegate the AT back to being considered the most useless archtype in the game.  Not to mention i'm sure some people would probably leave over such a nerf.

 

But tankers are certainly performing better than the other melee damage archtypes.

[DrunkFlux]

Except for tanker damage being slightly higher than it should be, tbh, this actually gives me confidence to try a wider variety of melee sets out.

[DrunkFlux]

I brought this up with a friend, she pointed out that, it doesn't help that the proc nerf still hasn't happened yet, which probably could have solved some of the over-buffing.

[Gobbledigook]

If anything it is the Tanker extra AoE radius that is probably giving them the edge. It is helping them to clear trash faster. The Brute and Scrapper and Stalker will out dps a Tanker on a single target.

 

Maybe try a hard target test like an AV.

[DrunkFlux]

I decided to look at some of these builds, it looks like they are predominantly proc-monkey builds , many attacks with 4 damage procs in them.

[Ston]

3 hours ago, DrunkFlux said:

I brought this up with a friend, she pointed out that, it doesn't help that the proc nerf still hasn't happened yet, which probably could have solved some of the over-buffing.

 

I’ve done tests where only one IO set is allowed per power. The tanker will still clear faster than a brute because of AoE radius and target caps. 

 

I’m not sure what “proc monkey” means.. but slotting just enough accuracy/damage and filling the rest with procs is the meta, so it should be used for testing. One of my goals is to have this as a benchmark to use against any potential proc changes. 

 

I think another important point to mention is now that hardmode exists, Tankers have a legit role in something.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Ston

[Ston]

3 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

If anything it is the Tanker extra AoE radius that is probably giving them the edge. It is helping them to clear trash faster. The Brute and Scrapper and Stalker will out dps a Tanker on a single target.

 

Maybe try a hard target test like an AV.

 

I’ve been wanting to find a test to measure this kind of thing. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like there’s missions with a bunch of EBs/AVs on a small map that’s easily repeatable. I’ll start looking into an AE solution! 

 

I thought about Pylons but I don’t think they’re a good measure for how fast a set can kill a boss/EB/AV. Something like energy melee would suffer in sustained DPS even thought it can 2 shot a boss. So gonna try to think something up for it! 

[Gobbledigook]

11 hours ago, Ston said:

 

I’ve been wanting to find a test to measure this kind of thing. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like there’s missions with a bunch of EBs/AVs on a small map that’s easily repeatable. I’ll start looking into an AE solution! 

 

I thought about Pylons but I don’t think they’re a good measure for how fast a set can kill a boss/EB/AV. Something like energy melee would suffer in sustained DPS even thought it can 2 shot a boss. So gonna try to think something up for it! 

Yes a mission with a tough Boss/AV at the end.

 

Maybe change the secondary powerset so the Scrapper has a decent taunt. Invulnerability? In a team a Tanker/Brute will hold aggro letting the Scrapper/stalker go to town. Even CC will allow them to do this. A solo Scrapper will have to make a decision to go with a stronger Taunt set or not. But as this is a solo test then a better set should be used.

 

But reverting the Tanker to where it was pre buff is a ludicrous idea. It would be a slap in the face to all those who asked for it and would not look good for the developers. The extra AoE radius was unexpected by most, i even suggested it was a step to far back then but got shot down. Do i like the Tanker now? is it better than before?...hell yes!. Was it overbuffed....a little... probably, with the extra AoE.

 

But the Tanker is more fun and enjoyable now than it ever was so asking to revert it is just bad, but i would not be against a few small tweaks in the right place.

 

Seems like some are on a mission to bring the Tanker down too much. Maybe some need a small buff and maybe some do need a small nerf. But keep it reasonable as there is always time to tweak a little more where necessary.

 

Brute/Tanker comparison is like Def/Corr. They were thrown together when they were not designed that way. The Brutes getting a decent ATO proc would be a good start.

 

Procs are also a big factor in many builds. They can make a huge difference.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[DrunkFlux]

On 12/10/2022 at 7:02 PM, Ston said:

 

I’ve done tests where only one IO set is allowed per power. The tanker will still clear faster than a brute because of AoE radius and target caps. 

 

I’m not sure what “proc monkey” means.. but slotting just enough accuracy/damage and filling the rest with procs is the meta, so it should be used for testing. One of my goals is to have this as a benchmark to use against any potential proc changes. 

 

I think another important point to mention is now that hardmode exists, Tankers have a legit role in something.

 

Even with hardmode, tankers on original damage scales would be considered inferior brutes, because with hardmode your going to want buffers/debuffers.  Resist-capped brutes mitigate as much damage as a tanker.  And forcing an AT to be required in this game would be bad design, and not help that AT perform well in content where it's not hard required.

 

With min/maxing and max-performance builds being extremely important or even required to do high difficulties, and leadership buff stacking extremely important(8 stack maneuvers is extremely powerful, and multi-stack tactics can easily overcome enemy defense increases), the tanker with a mere .75 damage modifier would still find itself even less desirable.  I agree tankers are to damaging though atm, even my friend whos a hardcore tanker enthusiast agrees. At .95 with a much higher health pool + easier maxing resists makes the tanker a far superior solo AT, probably superior to all other AT's currently.

 

As for "Proc Monkey", I kind of came up with the term considering other games and "Crit monkey" builds; high damage through critical strikes.  Procs are effectively that; critical strikes, just not criticals that scale from damage buffs.  Granted, I don't like using procs excessively; sure it's the meta but it will have to be nerfed/adjusted sooner or later.  I usually prefer maxing defense ratings out anyways, and procs usually fall in desirability when your needing those 6 slot set bonuses for that defense.  I usually only load procs into longer cooldown attacks like assassin strike or anything comparable on other melee/ranged AT's(the best compromise I can generally find, lower tier powers often have lower animation times, which means lower proc % rates anyways, and I always have high global cooldown which has no actual effect on proc rates in powers(only cooldown reduct from direct enhancement/alpha slot lowers proc % chances)).