No set bonuses check box on TF and Ouro arcs

[0th Power]

I know we have the no enhancement option, I am suggesting that we have the ability to disable set bonuses only, rather than trying to get an entire team to agree to making a SO build before a TF.  New badges could be added as well. 

[biostem]

Would this include individual IOs that provide a bonus apart from set bonuses, like panacea chance for +hp/+end?

[0th Power]

Just now, biostem said:

Would this include individual IOs that provide a bonus apart from set bonuses, like panacea chance for +hp/+end?

I would think if it provides enhancement value like the lotg def/7.5 recharge, that would go. I think procs like the panacea would stay because there is no other enhancement value. 
 

 

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

I would think if it provides enhancement value like the lotg def/7.5 recharge, that would go. I think procs like the panacea would stay because there is no other enhancement value. 
 

 

If you are willing to make LotG procs stop working, then you should be willing to make all procs stop working. Just because a +HP/+END bonus isn't as obvious as a +RECH doesn't change the fact it is the same thing. A proc bonus gained from a set. This went from reading as you want to disable set bonuses to you want to disable only some bonuses. If you want to disable any procs, then all procs should be disabled.

 

Edit: Otherwise, just disable the set bonuses and leave the procs alone. Regardless, you should not get selective procs if you disable procs as part of disabling set bonuses.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Rudra

[Major_Decoy]

The Luck of the Gambler +7.5% recharge enhancements are not procs in any sense. They work exactly like set bonuses. They are active in powers that are not active, like set bonuses, they go away when you exemplar below the slottable level of the enhancement, like set bonuses.

 

Procs, on the other hand, remain active only if the power is active and don't care about the level of the enhancement as long as you can still use the power.

[Rudra]

Just now, Major_Decoy said:

The Luck of the Gambler +7.5% recharge enhancements are not procs in any sense. They work exactly like set bonuses. They are active in powers that are not active, like set bonuses, they go away when you exemplar below the slottable level of the enhancement, like set bonuses.

 

Procs, on the other hand, remain active only if the power is active and don't care about the level of the enhancement as long as you can still use the power.

You mean like Panacea's do with their constant +HP/+END? Point still stands. The LotGs and Panaceas are identical in how they function.

[0th Power]

The lotg +rech is a set bonus.  Panacea is a proc

[0th Power]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If you are willing to make LotG procs stop working, then you should be willing to make all procs stop working. Just because a +HP/+END bonus isn't as obvious as a +RECH doesn't change the fact it is the same thing. A proc bonus gained from a set. This went from reading as you want to disable set bonuses to you want to disable only some bonuses. If you want to disable any procs, then all procs should be disabled.

 

Edit: Otherwise, just disable the set bonuses and leave the procs alone. Regardless, you should not get selective procs if you disable procs as part of disabling set bonuses.

Also I want the option to disable set bonuses. I see a proc as not a set bonus.  That’s how I would draw the line if I was making the decision.  I don’t WANT one over the other.  I’m fine one way or the other.  

[Major_Decoy]

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You mean like Panacea's do with their constant +HP/+END? Point still stands. The LotGs and Panaceas are identical in how they function.

You have absolutely never slotted Panacea in anything but health, have you?

[biostem]

I would differentiate a "proc" from a "set bonus" as the former providing its effect only once in a while, whereas the latter provides its effect consistently.  So panacea provides the hp and end once in a while, whereas LotG provides the recharge bonus at all times.  The only exception would be the "for 120 seconds" IOs, like the stealth ones, since they provide a consistent effect if slotted in an auto or toggle power, (while it is toggled on), or for 2 mins in a click power...

[Major_Decoy]

Just now, biostem said:

I would differentiate a "proc" from a "set bonus" as the former providing its effect only once in a while, whereas the latter provides its effect consistently.  So panacea provides the hp and end once in a while, whereas LotG provides the recharge bonus at all times.  The only exception would be the "for 120 seconds" IOs, like the stealth ones, since they provide a consistent effect if slotted in an auto or toggle power, (while it is toggled on), or for 2 mins in a click power...

 

"Set bonus"

-Level dependent. You only get a set bonus if you are capable of having the enhancements that provide it slotted. (The exceptions to this are Purple and PVP IOs) If you set bonuses are from level 50 enhancements, you lose the set bonuses at level 47. If you're using attuned enhancements, you lose the set bonuses three levels below the minimum level for the enhancement. If enhancements of different levels, you'll keep set bonuses for the enhancements that you're capable of slotting. If you have a level 50 Luck of the Gambler +7.5 Global Recharge bonus slotted, you'll lose the bonus at level 47. If it's attuned, 22.

-Active without the power being available. If you have Hecatomb slotted in Leviathan Mastery: Knock-out Blow, you'll still get those set bonuses when you're exemplared down to level 1.

Examples: Luck of the Gambler: +7.5% recharge, Steadfast Protection: +3% defense all, Impervious Skin: Status Resistance (The regeneration portion, however, is a proc)

 

"Proc"

1) Power dependent. If the power isn't active, you don't get the bonus.

Examples: Numina's Convalescence: +Regeneration/+Recovery, Miracle: +Recovery, Panacea: Chance for +Hit Points/Endurance, Power Transfer: Chance to heal self, Performance Shifter: Chance for +Endurance, Impervious Skin: Regeneration (the Status protection portion is a set bonus)

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Major_Decoy said:

You have absolutely never slotted Panacea in anything but health, have you?

Health, heals, and regen powers. (Edit: I slot Panacea if I want the recovery boost or Preventive Medicine if I want the resist boosts.)

Edited February 25, 2023 by Rudra

[Rudra]

17 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

"Set bonus"

-Level dependent. You only get a set bonus if you are capable of having the enhancements that provide it slotted. (The exceptions to this are Purple and PVP IOs) If you set bonuses are from level 50 enhancements, you lose the set bonuses at level 47. If you're using attuned enhancements, you lose the set bonuses three levels below the minimum level for the enhancement. If enhancements of different levels, you'll keep set bonuses for the enhancements that you're capable of slotting. If you have a level 50 Luck of the Gambler +7.5 Global Recharge bonus slotted, you'll lose the bonus at level 47. If it's attuned, 22.

-Active without the power being available. If you have Hecatomb slotted in Leviathan Mastery: Knock-out Blow, you'll still get those set bonuses when you're exemplared down to level 1.

Examples: Luck of the Gambler: +7.5% recharge, Steadfast Protection: +3% defense all, Impervious Skin: Status Resistance (The regeneration portion, however, is a proc)

 

"Proc"

1) Power dependent. If the power isn't active, you don't get the bonus.

Examples: Numina's Convalescence: +Regeneration/+Recovery, Miracle: +Recovery, Panacea: Chance for +Hit Points/Endurance, Power Transfer: Chance to heal self, Performance Shifter: Chance for +Endurance, Impervious Skin: Regeneration (the Status protection portion is a set bonus)

Set Bonus: A bonus gained from slotting 2 or more enhancements of a given set in a single power.

 

Enhancement Bonus: A bonus gained from slotting a given enhancement into a power.

 

Proc: Any non-standard bonus provided by a single enhancement without need for additional enhancements (such as from a set), that my be granted in lieu of or in addition to a standard enhancement bonus. Not dependent upon the effect being constant or triggered in nature.

 

Edit: So the LotG global recharge bonus is a enhancement proc bonus, not a set bonus, because you do not need to slot a set (being 2 or more enhancements from a defined group). Because it is not a standard recharge bonus, but is instead a +X% global recharge bonus, it is a constant-effect proc.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Rudra
Sorry, I meant proc bonus, not enhancement bonus.

[Major_Decoy]

Enhancement Bonus has a given meaning already, and it functions differently from how Luck of the Gambler: +7.5% global recharge bonus works.

 

Enhancement bonuses are the bonuses provided to the power by enhancements. Enhancement Bonuses are affected by level scaling (Set bonuses are not) Enhancement bonuses are still provided when you exemplar down below the level at which the enhancement is slottable (with allowances for scaling). And Enhancement bonuses only effect the power they are slotted in.

 

Whereas the Luck of the Gambler: +7.5% Global Recharge bonus functions in all ways as a set bonus, including the "rule of five" stacking. The only difference is that it's a set of one and a subset of a set of six.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Major_Decoy
If you want to call it a Subset enhancement bonus, that's fine.

[Rudra]

You are never going to change my mind about LotG global recharge being a constant effect proc rather than a set bonus. (It can't be a set bonus because it does not need any other enhancements than itself to give that bonus.) I'm obviously not going to sway you either. I agree to disagree.

 

Edit: Last note: https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Invention_Origin_Enhancements#Procs

(Based on that, I do have to concede your point, even as the linked page further down argues against it. Because it calls it a "set-like bonus".)

Edited February 25, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add "constant effect" and bold+italicize proc.

[Uun]

I think you would need to allow globals. People have almost completely abandoned Acrobatics for kb protection IOs. Would be a big issue for Fire and Dark Armor users if these were disabled.

[biostem]

11 hours ago, Uun said:

I think you would need to allow globals. People have almost completely abandoned Acrobatics for kb protection IOs. Would be a big issue for Fire and Dark Armor users if these were disabled.

I think the larger question would be what would this mode offer in comparison to playing without it, and would that difference warrant making a new build just for that purpose.  If it's just a challenge to see if you can do it or not, then let it stand as-is.  If there are extra or special rewards involved, then a further examination as to what is or is not allowed would have to be carried out...

[0th Power]

On 2/25/2023 at 5:56 PM, biostem said:

I think the larger question would be what would this mode offer in comparison to playing without it, and would that difference warrant making a new build just for that purpose.  If it's just a challenge to see if you can do it or not, then let it stand as-is.  If there are extra or special rewards involved, then a further examination as to what is or is not allowed would have to be carried out...

 

I think it would probably be used about as much as the current options on TFs/Ouro Arcs with the current structure (i.e. - badges on ouro arcs, nothing on TF).  Outside an additional reward, I don't see it being used that often other than a challenge TF. 

 

As far as an additional reward... What I would like to see, and I didn't include this in the OP, would be a challenge setting would give a percentage of bonus merits.    (These are just numbers thrown out there) No temporary powers - 5% more merits, Primary/secondary only - 15% more merits, etc.  It wouldn't necessarily have to be merits.  Throw in any of the other currencies or a temp power or badge or whatever.