New Archetype Idea: The Engager

[Puma]

So I have been playing a game with a unique combat system that rewards you for staying out of cover by healing you as you fight.  It created a frantic, incredibly fun play style.  I thought what a great way that would be to implement Guardians (or Sentinels, if they weren't already here), but since that is such an old, argued topic, I came up with my own archetype built around the idea.  This archetype is the kind of character in comics you'd see that thrives on battle, not mindlessly like a brute, but heroically and tactically.   That guy who charges head first in, inspiring others to follow, but who has the experience and know-how to fight intelligently. 

 

Archetype: The Engager.  The Engager is a master at battle, directly engaging with both their enemies and their allies to control any situation.  Engagers thrive in a conflict, and the more they battle the more exhilarated they become.  Engagers are at their best when they are in the fight directly, and their boldness can inspire their teammates to do the same.  Natural leaders, Engagers have a loyal companion who join them in battle. 

 

Inherent: Galvanize:  The Engager's battle expertise gives those around them a boost to damage and accuracy, and they've learned to use their own attacks to boost their health in various ways. 

 

 

*The Engager is like a brute version of a ranged character: the more action they're in, the more likely they are to survive.  They rely on a mix of ranged/ melee, and placed AoE attacks, but instead of relying on either defensive buffs from teammates or resistance and defense armors themselves, they survive via "healing" themselves through their own attacks.  Each -successful- single target ranged attack instantly heals them for a small portion of their hit points, while their placed AOE attack pets offer protection in the form of absorb shields and and increases in their base HP. Successful melee attacks motivate them and grant them endurance.  In short, the more traps they lay and the more they're attacking, the harder they are to kill.  Engagers also have one loyal companion as a key part of their secondary that offers additional attacks and buffs. 

 

Base HP:  1170.9-1306.6 (just above Corruptor/defender level at rest to Scrapper level when fighting).

 

Damage modifier:  ranged .85 (falling between a Kheld and a  Dominator), Melee 1.00 (blaster level).  Max damage boost is 400%, so lower than a blaster.  They do get an Aim- like power in their primary. 

 

Max healing- 500%. 

 

Companions: 

The companions are somewhere between a controller's pet and a mastermind's tier 1-2 pet.   At tier 1 they  have 1 minor ranged attack, 1 moderate AoE attack, and offer a small form of protection for the player in the form of added accuracy (which increases the likelihood of successful attacks that heal).  At tier 2 they offer an additional 1 high dmg attack and 1 AoE debuff or buff/minor damage attack.  They are largely uncontrollable, like controller pets, but share one direct control to help the player survive like a Mastermind's. When Battlefield Coordination is active, the pet moves close to the player, and the AoE attack and Debuff are swapped for Status Effect protection and a minor heal over time effect. Basically it lets you sacrifice damage for  status effect protection and healing in tough moments. 

 

**The secondary sets would be more limited in selection, at least at first, due to their diverse and unique playstyle, to make sure balancing is done correctly.  

 

Primary Powerset =  Combat
Tier 1:  Ranged, moderate damage , Single.  Self + minor hp
Tier 2:  Ranged, minor damage, foe immob or stun, self +minor hp
Tier 3:  Location based AoE pet, moderate damage over time, self +moderate base HP/absorb
Tier 4:  Ranged Targeted AoE, moderate damage, self +minor HP
Tier 5:  Locked In- Self +to hit, +DMG, +healing (5% for)
Tier 6:  Location based pet, single target damage over time, Self +moderate base HP/absorb
Tier 7:  Sniper- Extreme damage, self +absorb/ Heal over time
Tier 8:  Ranged, single target, superior damage, self
Tier 9:  Location based pet, AoE, DoT, Foe Status effect, Self +HP/Absorb.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Secondary Powerset:  Deployment **

Tier 1:  Melee Single target minor DMG,  foe status (immob or stun).  Self +end

Tier 2  Melee Single target Moderate DMG, Self +end

Tier 3  Companion (tier 1):  Various *

Tier 4  Melee single target High DMG,

Tier 5  Battlefield Coordination- Toggle Companion and Self +Status effect protection.

Tier 6  Direct  Companion:  unlocks Companion tier 2 powers, various.

Tier 7  melee AOE- High Damage, self +Recovery

Tier 8  Inspiration - PBAoE Heal/buff depending on powerset

Tier 9  Tactical Retreat- PBAoE Foe debuff (Mag 3), Self +SPD/JMP.

 

 

 

So here is what it would look like in actual theory: 

 

 

Primary Powerset =  Ice Combat
Tier 1: Bolt of Ice-  Ranged, moderate cold damage, Foe -rech.  Self + minor hp
Tier 2:  Chillbain Ranged, minor cold damage, foe immob or stun, self +minor hp
Tier 3:  Frozen Fissure: You open a fissure in the earth that spews forth freezing air blasts at your foes periodically.  Opening this fissure coats you in a layer of ice and frost, giving you added protection from damage.  (basically imagine the animation from Volcanic Gasses, but spewing icy blasts cold into the air around it).   Location based AoE, moderate cold damage over time, self +moderate absorb.
Tier 4:  Ice Ball:    You gather moisture in the air into a heavy ball of solid ice, hurling it at your enemies.  It explodes on impact, damaging nearby foes and slowing them.   (imagine the animation from Repulsing Torrent, only as you whirl your hands ice gathers that you launch at foes).  Ranged Targeted AoE, moderate cold damage, self +minor HP.
Tier 5:  Battle Focus- Self +To Hit, +DMG, Healing increase (+5 %)  (Build up)
Tier 6:  Ice storm:   You summon a bitterly cold rain of ice down around you. The ice is thick, damaging your foes, and clings to your icy skin, covering you in a layer of ice that boosts your total Hit Points.  Location based AoE, minor cold damage over time, Self +base HP.
Tier 7:  Focused Freeze-  A focused, long range shot that has high accuracy.  The brief exhilaration of a successful attack lets you ignore incoming damage.  If you have more than 97% to-hit, this attack becomes instant-cast.  Sniper, Extreme damage, foe -spd/recharge, self +absorb
Tier 8:  Bitter Ice Blast.  Ranged, single target, superior damage cold/smash, self +HP.
Tier 9:  Icy Refuge -  You encompass a large area in icy shards that immediately knock all but the strongest foes down.  These shards do cold and lethal damage to foes in the area, and foes have a good chance of continuing to slip and fall as they try to escape the afflicted area.  Your naturally cold body also collects ice from  the shards, protecting you from incoming damage.  (imagine a larger Sleet patch with ice shard animations added in, that removes the -res and -def in exchange for guaranteed knockdown on initial cast and strong chance of knockdown for the duration.) Location based pet, AoE, DoT cold, Foe Status effect, Self +HP/Absorb.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Secondary Powerset:  Ordinance Deployment

Tier 1:  Stun Glove. You strike at your foe briefly with an electrically charged glove.  The charge from the glove briefly stuns your target and does Melee Single target minor DMG electric/smashing,  foe stun.  Self +end

Tier 2  Baton Strike: You hit your foe with a retractable steel baton, dealing moderate smashing damage giving a short adrenal burst to yourself. Self +end

Tier 3  Companion (tier 1) Combat Drone:  You release a combat drone. This drone is finely tuned to your fighting style, and its AI is designed to aid you in several ways.   Tier 1 attacks: Stun Gun (Taser from Devices),  Static burst (Ball lighting from Electric Blast), and +accuracy.

Tier 4  Steel Toed Boots:  You strike at a foe's shins with steel toed boots, doing high damage and reduced their movement and attack speeds briefly.  This momentary respite lets you regain some endurance.  Melee single target High DMG, foe -spd, -rch,  self +end.

Tier 5  Battlefield Coordination- Toggle: Companion -attacks, Self +Status effect protection, healing over time.  You place your Combat Drone in Defensive coordination mode.  The drone reduces its attacks and focuses on protecting you by releasing a cloud of close stimulants around you.  You have strong resistance to status effects and some minor healing over time while Battlefield Coordination is active.

Tier 6  Advanced Mode:  You place your drone in Advanced mode, giving it greater capabilities.   This unlocks Companion tier 2 powers:  Laser Burst: single target Foe Heavy Damage energy, -res (10%); and Cloaking Field: AoE foe -To Hit, ally +Stealth.

Tier 7  :  Charged Suit:   You are wearing a specialized conductive material that generates energy as you move.  When needed, you release it in a burst of highly damaging force around you.  Some of that stored energy is released back to you boosting your recovery.  Melee AOE- High Damage energy, self +Recovery

Tier 8  Inspiration -  You strengthen your resolve, briefly inspiring your allies to do the same.  This allows you to briefly ignore your own pain and focus more clearly, increasing your to-hit.   (click PBAoE +Dmg, +HP)

Tier 9  Tactical Retreat- A good warrior knows when they may be overwhelmed.  When you find yourself in a dangerous situation, you release a grenade at your feet that releases toxins that you and your allies have been vaccinated against. The smoke momentarily blinds your foes, and then leaves all but the toughest foes sick momentarily.   PBAoE Foe -perception, vomit, (Mag 3), Self +SPD/JMP.

 

 

Some other secondary sets could include Infernal deployment with a fiery Orb or single Demon or Oni companion,  Darkness Deployment with a Litch or - Haunt-like companion,  Electric Deployment with a ball lightning  or Gremlin-like companion, Psionic deployment with a manifestation-like companion, etc.  

 

The general idea is a corruptor/blaster playstyle that REALLY incentivizes movement and action instead of cover, downtime, or relying on buffs from others.   You survive by attacking.  You do less damage than a blaster overall, but more than a Corruptor because you aren't stopping to buff and heal, and with the aid of a companion.  You have the benefits of sustain powers from blasters being built into the use of other powers. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Puma

[Saiyajinzoningen]

There are a few IO's that allow you to build a character that plays in this manner. The "entropic chaos" set works great for single target ranged damage and there is "power transfer" for your endurance modification powers and of course there are a ton of regen IO's in the health set that will aid you in this endeavor. water powers have a drain life skill or elec ranged will allow you to also siphon endurance + health when set up in this manner. Check out the Storm secondary set for corrupters the psuedo pets help with the damage with very few buffs or heals. In essence this playstyle is already available with a little inf and a lot of imagination 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Saiyajinzoningen

[Puma]

15 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

There are a few IO's that allow you to build a character that plays in this manner. The "entropic chaos" set works great for single target ranged damage and there is "power transfer" for your endurance modification powers and of course there are a ton of regen IO's in the health set that will aid you in this endeavor. water powers have a drain life skill or elec ranged will allow you to also siphon endurance + health when set up in this manner. Check out the Storm secondary set for corrupters the psuedo pets help with the damage with very few buffs or heals. In essence this playstyle is already available with a little inf and a lot of imagination 

 

 

I have to disagree in one key aspect: this playstyle IS available for certain specific powers in some powersets in certain archetypes, but nothing like this exists for an entire archetype. And honestly, if we start throwing in IOs as a way to do things, then we might as well scrap archetypes altogether, since IOs can make any archetype a fully armored, full damage dealing, high regen and end recovering monster. 

 

I say this as someone who has played hundreds of blasters, corruptors, and defenders to incarnate level.  While this playstyle is available to blasters or corruptors to some degree via IOs and specific powersets, so is tanking, frankly, but  that doesn't really "feel" the same as an archetype DESIGNED to function that way.  

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Puma

[Glacier Peak]

I'm pretty sure this is called a Peacebringer. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Glacier Peak
I'm pretty, but also sure

[biostem]

I think this proposed AT has too much going on, and the reliance on either placing the AoE or attacking in order to survive means they couldn't really take the alpha strike.

[Puma]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

I think this proposed AT has too much going on, and the reliance on either placing the AoE or attacking in order to survive means they couldn't really take the alpha strike.

Actually, placing an AoE immediately grants you a buff to your max HP and an absorb shield precisely for the alphas.  This more than a blaster has.  This archetype has less going on than a Defender, Corruptor, or controller if you think about it.  Those involve balancing team buffs, self heals and debuffs or controls, and then also trying to attack.  With the Engager, It's basically just entirely attack, attack, attack and that covers the self healing and buffing.    

 

Oh, it should be pointed out I think the AoEs should be dropped point blank (similar to Storm's lighting cloud, as opposed to how Sleet is placed, etc) except in powers that simply wouldn't work that way.  This would maintain the fast paced attacking feel.  That's how I play my blasters via macros, anyway, and it's much more efficient than having to drop them via a mouse in the heat of a battle. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Puma

[Puma]

9 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'm pretty sure this is called a Peacebringer. 

 I'm curious in what way?  How do you see similarities? 

[Rudra]

On 4/2/2023 at 9:01 AM, Puma said:

Tier 5:  Battle Focus- Self +Dmg, +to hit  (Build up)

You made a ranged power set. Ranged power sets get Aim, not Build Up. Melee power sets get Build Up. Minor point.

 

On 4/2/2023 at 9:01 AM, Puma said:

Tier 7:  Focused Freeze-  A focused, long range shot that has high accuracy.  The exhilaration of a successful attack makes you less mindful of incoming damage for a brief period.  If you have more than 97% to-hit, this attack becomes instant-cast.  Sniper, Extreme damage, foe -spd/recharge, self +absorb 

I thought ToHit was capped at 95%? Or am I confusing things? I know my chances to hit a target are capped at 95% no matter what. (Edit: Also, why is this snipe working differently than the other snipes in the game for when it is fast cast or slow cast?)

 

I'm also trying to figure out how all those attacks grant the character +HP/absorb. I can see a dark set siphoning life from a target, but not a distantly placed patch of ice or hurled bolt of ice.

 

I otherwise don't have any real opinion on the set or AT. Just those three questions/comments.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Rudra

[Puma]

52 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You made a ranged power set. Ranged power sets get Aim, not Build Up. Melee power sets get Build Up. Minor point.

 

I thought ToHit was capped at 95%? Or am I confusing things? I know my chances to hit a target are capped at 95% no matter what. (Edit: Also, why is this snipe working differently than the other snipes in the game for when it is fast cast or slow cast?)

 

I'm also trying to figure out how all those attacks grant the character +HP/absorb. I can see a dark set siphoning life from a target, but not a distantly placed patch of ice or hurled bolt of ice.

 

I otherwise don't have any real opinion on the set or AT. Just those three questions/comments.

Actually, you're partly right about snipes.  I forgot about the changes made on this server to snipes being in/out of combat fast snipes, but the 97% now triggers increased damage when fast.  

As for your question about how they trigger +HP/Absorb, it's explain in the power descriptions.  For example, with Ice Strorm, "The chaos from this attack cause your foes' attacks to be less effective, giving you added protection from the damage. "  If this doesn't sit right with you, you could easily say "The falling ice particles also absorb some income damage, boosting your own survivability."   Basically the traps absorb some of the enemy fire indirectly (not via taunt).   With the +end from the secondary, it's that the thrill of battle excites you and motivates you to continue fighting tirelessly.   

 

By the way, thanks for the catch on Build Up.  I swapped it in the description, and it now does +To Hit, some minor +Dmg, and offers a boost to healing.  

Edited April 4, 2023 by Puma

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Puma said:

As for your question about how they trigger +HP/Absorb, it's explain in the power descriptions.  For example, with Ice Strorm, "The chaos from this attack cause your foes' attacks to be less effective, giving you added protection from the damage. "  If this doesn't sit right with you, you could easily say "The falling ice particles also absorb some income damage, boosting your own survivability."   Basically the traps absorb some of the enemy fire indirectly (not via taunt).   With the +end from the secondary, it's that the thrill of battle excites you and motivates you to continue fighting tirelessly. 

The chaos from the attack causing your foes to be less effective would be a -damage effect, -accuracy effect, or both applied to the targets since it would not just benefit your character, but all characters those enemies may be attacking.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add ", -accuracy effect, or both".

[Puma]

On 4/4/2023 at 9:47 AM, Rudra said:

The chaos from the attack causing your foes to be less effective would be a -damage effect, -accuracy effect, or both applied to the targets since it would not just benefit your character, but all characters those enemies may be attacking.

Maybe, but I think If it said "the chaos from the attacks causes your enemies attacks to be less power" or something, then that would inherently mean -dmg, and if it said "less accurate" this would be -acc. but "less effective" is sort of in between. It just doesn't damage you as much. 

As I said, you could easily say "Casting <trap> also creates a barrier of <cold/heat/energy/nano-particles> around you, absorbing a moderate amount of damage"  if that sits better with you.   So  dropping ice storm also casts a small layer of frost protection, a thermal trap like "Thermal Eruption" casts a layer of ash protection, a weapons cast like Gun Drone casts a layer of Kevlar nano-particle protection, etc.  

 

The great thing about this game is it plays fast and loose enough with physics you can basically explain any desired effect of a power and stay within the game's existing mechanics.  

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, Puma said:

Maybe, but I think If it said "the chaos from the attacks causes your enemies attacks to be less power" or something, then that would inherently mean -dmg, and if it said "less accurate" this would be -acc. but "less effective" is sort of in between. It just doesn't damage you as much. 

As I said, you could easily say "Casting <trap> also creates a barrier of <cold/heat/energy/nano-particles> around you, absorbing a moderate amount of damage"  if that sits better with you.   So  dropping ice storm also casts a small layer of frost protection, a thermal trap like "Thermal Eruption" casts a layer of ash protection, a weapons cast like Gun Drone casts a layer of Kevlar nano-particle protection, etc.  

 

The great thing about this game is it plays fast and loose enough with physics you can basically explain any desired effect of a power and stay within the game's existing mechanics.  

If you launch an attack, and that attack causes your enemies' attacks to be less powerful or less effective, then it affects their ability to affect anyone. Not just your character. That is a -damage effect, -accuracy effect, or both. Because it affects their ability to fight. Not yours.

 

Edit: The effect of it being a trap that affects the targets is a prime example of a power that afflicts the enemy, not enhances you.

 

Edit again: And if the trap is an ice storm and it casts a small layer of frost protection? It will grant that small layer of frost protection to the targets within the confines of the ice storm. Storms affect the area they are in. They don't provide direct enhancements to areas outside their area. And if your gun drone is providing you kevlar protection, then it is a very articulated gun drone and you would still be better off just putting the kevlar on instead of hoping your gun puts it on for you.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Rudra

[biostem]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use a power that applies a debuff or a buff to you that targets an enemy, and the enemies attack in retaliation, aren't those initial attacks calculated before the buff or debuff is applied?  I suppose it's a matter of the precise timing of all the powers and such...

[Puma]

29 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If you launch an attack, and that attack causes your enemies' attacks to be less powerful or less effective, then it affects their ability to affect anyone. Not just your character. That is a -damage effect, -accuracy effect, or both. Because it affects their ability to fight. Not yours.

 

Edit: The effect of it being a trap that affects the targets is a prime example of a power that afflicts the enemy, not enhances you.

 

Edit again: And if the trap is an ice storm and it casts a small layer of frost protection? It will grant that small layer of frost protection to the targets within the confines of the ice storm. Storms affect the area they are in. They don't provide direct enhancements to areas outside their area. And if your gun drone is providing you kevlar protection, then it is a very articulated gun drone and you would still be better off just putting the kevlar on instead of hoping your gun puts it on for you.

Frozen Fissure: You open a fissure in the earth at your feet that spews forth freezing air blasts at your foes periodically.  Opening this fissure encases you in a layer of frost and ice that absorbs a moderate amount of incoming damage.  (basically imagine the animation from Volcanic Gasses, but spewing icy blasts cold into the air around it).   Location based AoE, moderate cold damage over time, self +moderate base HP/absorb.
 

Infernal Fire: Summons a rain of blazing fire around your location, burning foes and reducing their movement speed.  Casting this rain encases you in a layer of solid ash, absorbing a moderate amount of damage.  Location based AoE, minor fire damage over time, Self +moderate base HP/absorb. 

Gun Drone: You launch a short lived Gun Drone on the ground at your feet.  This drone remains stationary, but will attack any foes within range with rapid fire projectiles.  Activating this drone releases a small cloud of Kevlar nano-particles that cling to your skin, absorbing a moderate amount of incoming damage. Location based AoE, moderate smashing/lethal. Self +moderate Absorb

 

Pulsing orb:  You create an orb of plasma energy at your location. This orb sends out waves of energy at nearby foes in a cone in front of you, knocking  them down and doing minor energy damage over time.  The orb's energy also supercharges your cells, boosting your maximum HP temporarily. Location based AoE, minor energy damage, Foe Knockdown, Self +HP.  


 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Puma

[Rudra]

Then you are talking about the character being able to armor up. And if the character can armor up, then why doesn't the character just maintain the armor?

 

Frozen Fissure: You open a fissure in the earth at your location that spews forth freezing air. The freezing air slows targets in its area or the freezing air chills targets causing them to be less accurate as they shiver or other effect.

   If the fissure can encase you in ice that absorbs damage, then you are talking about an armor and the character should be able to maintain it. That is an armor power.

 

Infernal Fire: You summon a rain of blazing fire at your location that burns foes and slows them.

   If the rain can encase you in ash that absorbs damage, then you are talking about an armor and the character should be able to maintain it. That is an armor power.

 

Gun Drone: You set up a gun drone turret at your location. While immobile, the drone rapid fires at targets within its engagement range.

   If the gun drone sets up a shield, then you are talking about a force field. Which should also benefit any allies that get behind it. Hello. combined FFG and gun drone.

 

Pulsing Orb: You create a plasma orb at your location that repels targets, inflicting minor energy damage as it does.

   If the orb can boost your health, then why can't it also boost the health of your allies?

 

So your pitch is either armor that for some reason the character chooses not to maintain, which would require dedicated armor powers or an armor set, or an effect that in actuality boost every ally in the effect area, or an effect that hinders enemies rather than boosting the character. Do you see the problem I ahve with this element of the AT? If you can armor up, then why aren't you maintaining the armor while you fight? If the benefit is a field or a shield, then why aren't your allies also benefitting from it? If the effect affects your enemies and hinders them, then it is an effect that attacks and hinders your enemies.

 

Here is a power set, not AT, that can work the way you are describing. Not surprisingly, it is a Dark set.

T1: Absorbing Blast: Attempts to absorb the life energy of the target, using that energy to fortify your own life.

T2: Draining Blast: Attempts to absorb the life energy of the target, using that energy to fortify your own life.

T3: Area Drain: Attempts to absorb the life energy of targets in the area, using that energy to fortify your own life.

T4-T9, see above.

 

In order for you to gain benefit personally from attacking or hindering a foe without it benefitting any allies with you, the attack has to be of an absorption style. Your character using his/her ability to steal energy from others and use it to benefit himself/herself like the Blue Ink Men from the Tsoo. That limits your power sets to a kinetics or a darkness approach. Fire burns. Ice freezes. Bullets tear and shred. If they are going to drain the target, then they need an added element to make that make sense. Hellfire can both burn and drain, but is also both fire and dark.

 

Edit: I am starting to think I should oppose the proposed AT. You are talking about combining armors with your attacks while maintaining buffs and picking up a at least semi-commandable pet. This AT is starting to look like the "I want everything" AT.

 

Edit again: Here is a big issue I have with your pitch now that I've had a chance to eat something. If all your primary powers grant you an armor effect, then you have taken the Sentinel AT and made it a power set instead. It doesn't matter if those armor effects expire after 30 seconds, 10 seconds, or even 5 seconds after you stop attacking. You have a free armor set built into the ranged attack set. That you can still pair with a combined support + MM-style pet in your secondary. So the proposed AT is a Sentinel-Mastermind with slightly reduced capabilities on both aspects.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Rudra
Speling and word choice.

[Puma]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Then you are talking about the character being able to armor up. And if the character can armor up, then why doesn't the character just maintain the armor?

 

Frozen Fissure: You open a fissure in the earth at your location that spews forth freezing air. The freezing air slows targets in its area or the freezing air chills targets causing them to be less accurate as they shiver or other effect.

   If the fissure can encase you in ice that absorbs damage, then you are talking about an armor and the character should be able to maintain it. That is an armor power.

 

Infernal Fire: You summon a rain of blazing fire at your location that burns foes and slows them.

   If the rain can encase you in ash that absorbs damage, then you are talking about an armor and the character should be able to maintain it. That is an armor power.

 

Gun Drone: You set up a gun drone turret at your location. While immobile, the drone rapid fires at targets within its engagement range.

   If the gun drone sets up a shield, then you are talking about a force field. Which should also benefit any allies that get behind it. Hello. combined FFG and gun drone.

 

Pulsing Orb: You create a plasma orb at your location that repels targets, inflicting minor energy damage as it does.

   If the orb can boost your health, then why can't it also boost the health of your allies?

 

So your pitch is either armor that for some reason the character chooses not to maintain, which would require dedicated armor powers or an armor set, or an effect that in actuality boost every ally in the effect area, or an effect that hinders enemies rather than boosting the character. Do you see the problem I ahve with this element of the AT? If you can armor up, then why aren't you maintaining the armor while you fight? If the benefit is a field or a shield, then why aren't your allies also benefitting from it? If the effect affects your enemies and hinders them, then it is an effect that attacks and hinders your enemies.

 

Here is a power set, not AT, that can work the way you are describing. Not surprisingly, it is a Dark set.

T1: Absorbing Blast: Attempts to absorb the life energy of the target, using that energy to fortify your own life.

T2: Draining Blast: Attempts to absorb the life energy of the target, using that energy to fortify your own life.

T3: Area Drain: Attempts to absorb the life energy of targets in the area, using that energy to fortify your own life.

T4-T9, see above.

 

In order for you to gain benefit personally from attacking or hindering a foe without it benefitting any allies with you, the attack has to be of an absorption style. Your character using his/her ability to steal energy from others and use it to benefit himself/herself like the Blue Ink Men from the Tsoo. That limits your power sets to a kinetics or a darkness approach. Fire burns. Ice freezes. Bullets tear and shred. If they are going to drain the target, then they need an added element to make that make sense. Hellfire can both burn and drain, but is also both fire and dark.

 

Edit: I am starting to think I should oppose the proposed AT. You are talking about combining armors with your attacks while maintaining buffs and picking up a at least semi-commandable pet. This AT is starting to look like the "I want everything" AT.

 

Edit again: Here is a big issue I have with your pitch now that I've had a chance to eat something. If all your primary powers grant you an armor effect, then you have taken the Sentinel AT and made it a power set instead. It doesn't matter if those armor effects expire after 30 seconds, 10 seconds, or even 5 seconds after you stop attacking. You have a free armor set built into the ranged attack set. That you can still pair with a combined support + MM-style pet in your secondary. So the proposed AT is a Sentinel-Mastermind with slightly reduced capabilities on both aspects.

The absorb mechanic is not an armor power. Blasters have absorbs in many of their secondaries, which don't get armors.  They aren't armors. Absorbs don't take armor enhancements like resist and defense sets, they take healing enhancements.   It feels like you're arguing about semantics instead of genuinely trying to entertain the idea or even find a way to make it work.  Which is fine, that's you're right. It's not super constructive though.   

For example, you made the statement "If all your primary powers grant you an armor effect, then you have taken the Sentinel AT and made it a power set instead. It doesn't matter if those armor effects expire after 30 seconds, 10 seconds, or even 5 seconds after you stop attacking. You have a free armor set built into the ranged attack set. That you can still pair with a combined support + MM-style pet in your secondary."  All your primary powers don't grant you an [absorb]. Exactly 3 of the 9 grant either an absorb OR a boost to HP. So it gets, at most, TWO more than current blaster sets like Ice and Plant.  As I said, absorbs aren't armors. Even if they were, though,  this set still doesn't have "a free armor set."  It has a blast set that offers self healing in some attacks and either some absorb or some bonus HP in a few others. So we're talking, with all pets deployed, maybe 200-300 HP of protection.   You then have your other attacks to try and keep the healing going after the alpha, or until you can relay another trap.  It gets no defense, no +res, etc. It may get some secondary mitigation like all powers, but that comes at the expense of raw damage, just like all sets.   Unlike Sentinels, it can't withstand alphas easily, and will struggle with prolonged AV fights with heavy hits, etc. unless it starts dealing out damage via a trap immediately.   Likewise it doesn't get "support" powers in its secondary; it has melee attacks, just like blasters, and has an uncontrollable pet that basically only offers a few minor or moderate attacks, or can be used as a status effect protection power (which a solo player often will need)  by losing its best attacks.  This comes in place of Build Up, and the control power it gets is only similar in strength to blasters, but comes at tier 9.    I can't think of another Achetype in the game whose survivability is entirely dependent on them continuing to stay in the fight attacking constantly, and having played that now, I think there's real potential for fun with it here.  It's a fun balance of trying to dish out damage while watching your health bar actually move up and down, which is far more interactive and exciting than the way armor sets in this game largely work, which tend to be "set and forget". 

     

Edited April 6, 2023 by Puma

[Puma]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

Gun Drone: You set up a gun drone turret at your location. While immobile, the drone rapid fires at targets within its engagement range.

   If the gun drone sets up a shield, then you are talking about a force field. Which should also benefit any allies that get behind it. Hello. combined FFG and gun drone.

 

Pulsing Orb: You create a plasma orb at your location that repels targets, inflicting minor energy damage as it does.

   If the orb can boost your health, then why can't it also boost the health of your allies?

 

Here is what I actually wrote for Gun Drone: "You launch a short lived Gun Drone on the ground at your feet.  This drone remains stationary, but will attack any foes within range with rapid fire projectiles.  Activating this drone releases a small cloud of Kevlar nano-particles that cling to your skin, absorbing a moderate amount of incoming damage."  It doesn't "set up a shield."  It releases a one time cloud of nano-bots that attach to you.   That doesn't help anyone but you.  If you really feel like you need a detailed breakdown of the mechanics, you are wearing a specialized magnetic clothing that attracts them, and you just couldn't afford to make enough for everybody.  I'll send you the schematics via mail. 

As for the Orb: I dunno. Maybe my body which is somehow able to generate and create energy blasts, etc. is uniquely able to ALSO be charged from them in a way yours isn't.  I'm special, you know?   Just like the MANY powers in this game that only affect self but, I mean, really, should be affecting others if we had any actual control over that kind of power. 

 

 

These are the kinds of answers, given the way powers work in this game in a MILLION creative ways, that suggest you're less interested in actually discussing this as a possibility and how it would work and more interested in point out why it can't, but without giving any real thought.  I mean, no one has YET to explain to me how someone can literally COVER me in Ice sheets cold enough or flames hot enough to stop incoming bullets and hammers and swords but NOT give me frostbite or burn my hair off. It's called suspension of disbelief.  This game is filled with it.  But somehow your using your powers in a way that can protect you but not others is where you draw the line and must criticize.  Which is fine...if that somehow is beneficial or entertaining for you.  But do you remember all those years people asked for a blast/armor set and were told "you just want the best of everything"?  Or when they said they wanted a kinetic mastermind and were told "You just want the best of everything and it would be easy mode"?  Your complains so far seem more like that to me than genuinely though about concerns about how this archetype would function and whether that might be appealing to part of the player base. 

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by Puma

[Rudra]

You're correct in that absorbs aren't armor. (In some ways, they are better than armors since they flat block the damage instead of reduce it.) The way you have the attacks described though, it sure feels like you are describing an armor or a force field to me, depending on which power you listed I look at. The power harms your enemy and encases you in some protective material or field? That is a combined attack/armor power regardless of whether you are talking about damage resist or damage absorb.

 

Look, having a blast set that heals you (very slightly) with all of its attacks would be a novel concept. No argument there. However, the heals would have to be limited in scope. They should not be strong enough to make the set feel like a regen' scrapper blaster as a single power set. I trust the devs to figure that out if they decide to tackle it. Absorb is an amazingly effective mechanic. A single absorb proc' has saved my brutes on many occasions when their armors were rendered worthless. So the absorb component would also have to be very slight or you would effectively have a better than armor armor set integrated into all your primary attacks. Or the absorb component could be unaffected by enhancements. Gaining increases to your max HP is also a highly effective mechanic. It not only gives you more HP for the mobs to have to whittle down, it also increases your regeneration rate automatically since your regeneration is derived from your max HP. If you want to include any of these mechanics into the primary sets' attacks? Then that should be the only secondary effect of any of the attacks. And only one of those three effects should be allowed for any one attack. I have no problems with any of that.

 

The problem I ahve is that the way you are describing the attacks, it makes no sense for the attacks to work the way you are saying they do. You conjure up an ice storm and it encases you in ice that protects you while inflicting damage on your foes? That seems to be two different powers to me. You conjure up a fire storm and it encases you in ash (from somewhere) that protects you from harm while inflicting damage on your foes? That also seems to be two different powers to me. So on and so forth. And then on top of that, you also have added effects built in like slows. So now you have an attack power that reamins for a set duration that makes you harder to hurt, makes it harder for your enemies to even fight, and does damage all at the same time. And you have that baked into every power in your example primary set starting from the tier 1 power. And that is before we even start looking at the secondary power sets.

 

So here is an AT with ranged attacks, auto-heals and/or damage mitigation built into every ranged attack, debuffs built into several attacks, melee attacks, mez protection, buffs, and a pet. Seriously, look at what you made and tell me it doesn't do all of that. You have the support type covered. You have the pet type covered, even if only a single upgradeable pet, which is better than MMs get since 5 of their 6 pets degrade as they level up. You have the melee type covered between the melee attacks and the built in damage mitigation or reduction plus mez protection. You have the ranged type covered. What does your AT not do?!

 

Adjust the primary powers to either grant a minor heal when used, grant minor absorb when used, or grant a debuff effect. Not all of the above. Make the AT not do everything under the sun.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Puma said:

Here is what I actually wrote for Gun Drone: "You launch a short lived Gun Drone on the ground at your feet.  This drone remains stationary, but will attack any foes within range with rapid fire projectiles.  Activating this drone releases a small cloud of Kevlar nano-particles that cling to your skin, absorbing a moderate amount of incoming damage."  It doesn't "set up a shield.  It releases a one time cloud of nano-bots that attach to you.   That doesn't help anyone but you.  If you really feel like you need a detailed breakdown of the mechanics, you are wearing a specialized magnetic clothing that attracts them, and you just couldn't afford to make enough for everybody.  I'll send you the schematics via mail. 

Why would the nano-particles not be of use to your allies as well if they are close to you?

 

Edit: For that matter, why would your ice storm not also be able to provide your allies with a similar protective covering if they are in the effect? Or the fire storm? Or anything else?

Edited April 6, 2023 by Rudra

[Puma]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

Look, having a blast set that heals you (very slightly) with all of its attacks would be a novel concept. No argument there. However, the heals would have to be limited in scope. They should not be strong enough to make the set feel like a regen' scrapper blaster as a single power set. I trust the devs to figure that out if they decide to tackle it. Absorb is an amazingly effective mechanic. A single absorb proc' has saved my brutes on many occasions when their armors were rendered worthless. So the absorb component would also have to be very slight or you would effectively have a better than armor armor set integrated into all your primary attacks. Or the absorb component could be unaffected by enhancements. Gaining increases to your max HP is also a highly effective mechanic. It not only gives you more HP for the mobs to have to whittle down, it also increases your regeneration rate automatically since your regeneration is derived from your max HP. If you want to include any of these mechanics into the primary sets' attacks? Then that should be the only secondary effect of any of the attacks. And only one of those three effects should be allowed for any one attack. I have no problems with any of that.

 

This I complete agree with, and think this is actually constructive feedback and discussion. Thank you.  

[biostem]

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The problem I ahve is that the way you are describing the attacks, it makes no sense for the attacks to work the way you are saying they do.

We have a precedent for this - Radiation Armor's Ground Zero - it damages & debuffs enemies, while healing allies.

[Rudra]

Personally, I think your proposed AT works better as a specific blast set available to ranged ATs rather than as an AT. Certain power effects are conducive to what you are trying for while others are not.

[Puma]

17 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So here is an AT with ranged attacks, auto-heals and/or damage mitigation built into every ranged attack, debuffs built into several attacks, melee attacks, mez protection, buffs, and a pet. Seriously, look at what you made and tell me it doesn't do all of that. You have the support type covered. You have the pet type covered, even if only a single upgradeable pet, which is better than MMs get since 5 of their 6 pets degrade as they level up. You have the melee type covered between the melee attacks and the built in damage mitigation or reduction plus mez protection. You have the ranged type covered. What does your AT not do?!

 

Adjust the primary powers to either grant a minor heal when used, grant minor absorb when used, or grant a debuff effect. Not all of the above. Make the AT not do everything under the sun.

 It does only the SECONDARY EFFECTS that already exist for any given powerset, and since those powersets' damage levels are built around those secondaries, you can't just get rid of Ice's slows, or electric's -end, or sonics' -res without increasing the damage like fire has.  And no, it doesn't have buffs.  The only "buff" I can see is one Aim power in its primary, which is standard for blast sets, and one tier 9 AoE mez power that boosts spd and jump as an "escape" power.  And I'll need you to explain "ou have the pet type covered, even if only a single upgradeable pet, which is better than MMs get since 5 of their 6 pets degrade as they level up" because Mastermind pets actually get TWO Pet increases as they level, which gives each of their pets MULTIPLE new attacks.  Again, the pet in this secondary does about the kind of damage that a single tier 1 Mastermind pet does, and then has the ability to be WEAKENED in exchange for saving the player from mez when needed.  
 
Sentinels got "full armor sets, full blast sets, full mez protection, secondary damage mitigation or debuffs built into the secondaries of each attack, and buffs" by this logic.  Except they really didn't. They got the standard blast sets that include the standard effects of blast power, they got the typical armor sets that give mez protection as well, and they got some added effects on some powers with their inherent that make them either more survivable or more damaging.  It's about the balance of those mechanics.  The same would be with this archetype.  The heals offered by the single target attacks and absorb from pets would be enough that, if used effectively, can keep you alive as long as you keep attacking and don't miss too much.   The secondary attacks keep your end up and give you moments to break briefly if you miss too much or recharge isn't enough to keep you attacking and healing enough.  That's it.  

Edited April 6, 2023 by Puma

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

We have a precedent for this - Radiation Armor's Ground Zero - it damages & debuffs enemies, while healing allies.

And is also a single power in the power set rather than every power in the power set.

[Puma]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Personally, I think your proposed AT works better as a specific blast set available to ranged ATs rather than as an AT. Certain power effects are conducive to what you are trying for while others are not.

What about an Epic Archetype, with some branching options for pets? So you always have attacks that also heal, and melee that also gives +end, but  you can select from like 4 single pets that offer different minor supplements like listed above?  Maybe one offers mez protection, but another offers +Rech, etc.  when in the guard mode?