Suggestions for Development and testing

[Puma]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Maybe.

OK. That makes sense. 

 

Do you see what WindDemon is showing about the chain lightning getting weaker with each jump, btw?  Im going to assume the going between 210 and 206 deals with resistance differences (one type probably had a small energy damage resistance).   Its first hit is 350, second is 275, and the rest go back and forth between the 206 and 210.  

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Puma said:

OK. That makes sense. 

 

Do you see what WindDemon is showing about the chain lightning getting weaker with each jump, btw?  Im going to assume the going between 210 and 206 deals with resistance differences (one type probably had a small energy damage resistance).   Its first hit is 350, second is 275, and the rest go back and forth between the 206 and 210.  

You posted while I was editing to address this.

[Player-1]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

There also seems to be something fundamentally bugged with storm cell, which maybe that is what is also resulting in the procs seeming extra bad. Here's an example, long-snipe direct strike is 80% proc chance, with intensify, that is 100% that it should guarantee full proccing. Storm cell, outside of misses, then should be guaranteed to hit 7 targets, but as you can see, it's not doing so. Take away *maybe* one target for REALLY bad RNG, and it should still have hit 6 targets with the lightning: (god for the life of me i can't figure out why i can't seem to record again). I tried it 3 times in a row with different mobs in PP that were close together. Twice in a row Laying cell, cast intensify, cast slow snipe I only got 2 strikes to hit other targets, the 3rd time It hit 4.

 

Hi @WindDemon21, firstly I want to thank you for consolidating the prior information into one post. That is very helpful to us as even though we do comb the forums, bits and pieces mixed in with banter gets lost quickly.

 

Secondly, the quote above may be a misconception about how Storm Cell works. When you proc Lightning, it only procs one lightning at a time. There is not a chance to trigger Lightning (Focused) and (Spread) when you activate a power, rather a split between which version triggers when it is procced at all. Having the expectation of potentially 7 bonus targets can certainly sway opinions!

 

Lastly, Storm Blast is still subject to change over time just as with the rest of the game. Given we get enough data to make a compelling case one way or another of course be that internal or otherwise! 

[WindDemon21]

17 hours ago, Player-1 said:

Secondly, the quote above may be a misconception about how Storm Cell works. When you proc Lightning, it only procs one lightning at a time. There is not a chance to trigger Lightning (Focused) and (Spread) when you activate a power, rather a split between which version triggers when it is procced at all. Having the expectation of potentially 7 bonus targets can certainly sway opinions!

Ok well that would certainly explain why it currently seems SO terrible and isn't getting enough procs and even less useful as especially not being able to determine which enemy gets the proc can lead it to be heavily wasted. Perhaps that should be looked at first. Again on top of it's opportunity tax of having to use storm blast powers rather than just providing it's own damage, the closest thing to look at regarding it's damage would be rain powers (which though not as big also have their own -speed and fear for mitigation effects).

 

So what you're saying is that at MAX even with 100% proc chances, and let's say gust is fixed to a 1s activation time, You'd be using direct strike I believe quick form is 1.33s, and one of the other two, or chain, which we'll use (assuming shorter end/rech fixed) cause it's the next lowest cast time for proccing) at 1.17s, IE, trying to get the best procs per second using gust every other attack which would be 1.125s avg cast:

 

75.07 is the max damage per proc, per second. (which again, whether focused, split, or spread is how much damage max per proc)

 

So that's 66.73 damage per second. (again, if ONLY using storm blast powers)

 

A rain power, we'll look at whirlpool since it's in the middle of the rains:

 

131.46 damage over 15s, hits 16 targets = 140.224 dps

 

So on big mobs rains are vastly superior for damage, especially at current as they evenly hit the mob guaranteed where as mentioned above the strikes can hit targets, lets say a minnion that would die with your next jet stream anyway, and be completely wasted (that's also a BIG factor that should be considered as well, ie, would be better if cell procs were only the split value but hit more targets for example)

 

Now let's look at the average of what happens when the minnions die and you're left with lt's and bosses after usually about 3 seconds after the aoe/cone are cast, which i believe are often about 10 min's in the mob, then like 4 lts and 2 bosses. So that's 52.584dps (but don't forget, that before this it also helped to kill off the minnions, which storm cell hardly does anything for that except somewhat currently for how terrible chain lightning is, and except the average conditions where it fills in on the weaker damage of chain lightning.

 

So at this point only when the mob is down to the lt's and bosses does storm cell outpace it, but this is again only in a 100% proc chance scenario. This is also still, assuming you are doing nothing but storm blasting. At this point, given the mitigation/debuff, and fact that most if it is useless at the start of the mob assuming its much higher chance of hitting minnions, I'd say it's about even for what it should do. I could maybe see a tiny damage reduction, but would rather see the damage evened out to be all the same proc with that 5 target cap more similar to c5, thus allowing you to knowingly use a non-storm blast attack during the lockout period, ie every other attack.

 

However currently, this is in the best case scenario, of using direct strike, cloudburst, and alternating hailstones and chain lighting every other attack: 1.33+1.67+1.67+1.17/4= 1.46s avg cast, at 60+60+60+40/4 = 55% avg proc chances. That's only 28.28 damage per second. WELL below a rain, but more focused when the targets are small even at 4 targets which is the max spread, (less targets means if spread hits damage is wasted, same with split so that also goes against it). At 4 targets currently:

 

Whirlpool: 35.056 versus cell's 28.28, still beating it out

 

3 targets: 26.292dps vs 29.47dps, so only at 3 targets or less is the cell beating out any rain power and technically you can mostly perma a rain power, though often you wouldn't if only 3 targets left unless they were really tough, so cell helps a little more extended past 15s, though most fights further on don't last that long, or if they do, not much longer where cell makes up that much more of a difference. This is also at full optimal proccing rotation, not accounting for using gust/jet stream which lower your proc chances currently, and if you're using your other sets powers which drive those numbers even further. In normal play, this means that it is doing just god awful damage. T

 

Currently cell, is just really, really bad for any reliable damage. (which Wavicle's chart showed, on just storm blast alone, knowing how bad chain lightning is too, you can see that storms aoe is bad which means storm cell is doing even LESS compared to a normal aoe set) I also think while it's great to have the extra effects of the attacks in storm cell, they should also be viable on their own when cell is not up. As a set, having it's damage be less for some of the mitigation is fine but it's also way lower, and on top of that, chain especially, is also worse-stattted on top of that, so it's not justified on it's own, or as a whole set either, hence all the suggested fixes.

 

Personally, I'd much rather see more procs (while also mentioned values need adjusted to be a bit better, but even at the 100% proc rate, it's still about average for the power just itself, and the set would still be lower on damage), but also less reliability on it for those times you don't want to recast it just yet. Fixing chain is also the second part of that, to which even with fixed actual stats by lowering the end/rech keeping the same damage, it still has the issues of not proccing, and missing half or all of the mob often due to the way it chains. There is also the opportunity costs vs using your other sets powers, the cost of the cell-strikes hitting targets where the damage doesn't matter anyway, and that the set generally has zero burst damage compared to other sets which also make it lag behind, and the extra end cost currently by being behind (ie big part of inefficiency relying on procs and inconsistent aoe on chain).

 

When you account all this, while some of the mitigation is nice, it doesn't currently make up enough for the damage/endurance issues and reliance on only storm blasting, which is where I'd say to start off, number one, making all the attacks proc 100% and normalize the lightning strike damage and set to 5 targets (ie about the damage of the split) and the splits KD chances, keeping the 2s lockout, which actually given the powers cast times ends up being more like a 2.5-3s lockout, and then two, reduce chain's end/rech values to closer to 8end/10s rech. I think you/anyone would notice a big improvement on the set doing so, while still not anywhere near overpowering it, and it's never going to have that burst damage like other sets.

 

[JasperStone]

10 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Ok well that would certainly explain why it currently seems SO terrible and isn't getting enough procs and even less useful as especially not being able to determine which enemy gets the proc can lead it to be heavily wasted. Perhaps that should be looked at first. Again on top of it's opportunity tax of having to use storm blast powers rather than just providing it's own damage, the closest thing to look at regarding it's damage would be rain powers (which though not as big also have their own -speed and fear for mitigation effects).

 

So what you're saying is that at MAX even with 100% proc chances, and let's say gust is fixed to a 1s activation time, You'd be using direct strike I believe quick form is 1.33s, and one of the other two, or chain, which we'll use (assuming shorter end/rech fixed) cause it's the next lowest cast time for proccing) at 1.17s, IE, trying to get the best procs per second using gust every other attack which would be 1.125s avg cast:

 

75.07 is the max damage per proc, per second. (which again, whether focused, split, or spread is how much damage max per proc)

 

So that's 66.73 damage per second. (again, if ONLY using storm blast powers)

 

A rain power, we'll look at whirlpool since it's in the middle of the rains:

 

131.46 damage over 15s, hits 16 targets = 140.224 dps

 

So on big mobs rains are vastly superior for damage, especially at current as they evenly hit the mob guaranteed where as mentioned above the strikes can hit targets, lets say a minnion that would die with your next jet stream anyway, and be completely wasted (that's also a BIG factor that should be considered as well, ie, would be better if cell procs were only the split value but hit more targets for example)

 

Now let's look at the average of what happens when the minnions die and you're left with lt's and bosses after usually about 3 seconds after the aoe/cone are cast, which i believe are often about 10 min's in the mob, then like 4 lts and 2 bosses. So that's 52.584dps (but don't forget, that before this it also helped to kill off the minnions, which storm cell hardly does anything for that except somewhat currently for how terrible chain lightning is, and except the average conditions where it fills in on the weaker damage of chain lightning.

 

So at this point only when the mob is down to the lt's and bosses does storm cell outpace it, but this is again only in a 100% proc chance scenario. This is also still, assuming you are doing nothing but storm blasting. At this point, given the mitigation/debuff, and fact that most if it is useless at the start of the mob assuming its much higher chance of hitting minnions, I'd say it's about even for what it should do. I could maybe see a tiny damage reduction, but would rather see the damage evened out to be all the same proc with that 5 target cap more similar to c5, thus allowing you to knowingly use a non-storm blast attack during the lockout period, ie every other attack.

 

However currently, this is in the best case scenario, of using direct strike, cloudburst, and alternating hailstones and chain lighting every other attack: 1.33+1.67+1.67+1.17/4= 1.46s avg cast, at 60+60+60+40/4 = 55% avg proc chances. That's only 28.28 damage per second. WELL below a rain, but more focused when the targets are small even at 4 targets which is the max spread, (less targets means if spread hits damage is wasted, same with split so that also goes against it). At 4 targets currently:

 

Whirlpool: 35.056 versus cell's 28.28, still beating it out

 

3 targets: 26.292dps vs 29.47dps, so only at 3 targets or less is the cell beating out any rain power and technically you can mostly perma a rain power, though often you wouldn't if only 3 targets left unless they were really tough, so cell helps a little more extended past 15s, though most fights further on don't last that long, or if they do, not much longer where cell makes up that much more of a difference. This is also at full optimal proccing rotation, not accounting for using gust/jet stream which lower your proc chances currently, and if you're using your other sets powers which drive those numbers even further. In normal play, this means that it is doing just god awful damage. T

 

Currently cell, is just really, really bad for any reliable damage. (which Wavicle's chart showed, on just storm blast alone, knowing how bad chain lightning is too, you can see that storms aoe is bad which means storm cell is doing even LESS compared to a normal aoe set) I also think while it's great to have the extra effects of the attacks in storm cell, they should also be viable on their own when cell is not up. As a set, having it's damage be less for some of the mitigation is fine but it's also way lower, and on top of that, chain especially, is also worse-stattted on top of that, so it's not justified on it's own, or as a whole set either, hence all the suggested fixes.

 

Personally, I'd much rather see more procs (while also mentioned values need adjusted to be a bit better, but even at the 100% proc rate, it's still about average for the power just itself, and the set would still be lower on damage), but also less reliability on it for those times you don't want to recast it just yet. Fixing chain is also the second part of that, to which even with fixed actual stats by lowering the end/rech keeping the same damage, it still has the issues of not proccing, and missing half or all of the mob often due to the way it chains. There is also the opportunity costs vs using your other sets powers, the cost of the cell-strikes hitting targets where the damage doesn't matter anyway, and that the set generally has zero burst damage compared to other sets which also make it lag behind, and the extra end cost currently by being behind (ie big part of inefficiency relying on procs and inconsistent aoe on chain).

 

When you account all this, while some of the mitigation is nice, it doesn't currently make up enough for the damage/endurance issues and reliance on only storm blasting, which is where I'd say to start off, number one, making all the attacks proc 100% and normalize the lightning strike damage and set to 5 targets (ie about the damage of the split) and the splits KD chances, keeping the 2s lockout, which actually given the powers cast times ends up being more like a 2.5-3s lockout, and then two, reduce chain's end/rech values to closer to 8end/10s rech. I think you/anyone would notice a big improvement on the set doing so, while still not anywhere near overpowering it, and it's never going to have that burst damage like other sets.

 

Wall of text.

You win.

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, JasperStone said:

Wall of text.

You win.

Lol was trying to be as detailed/specific as i could haha

[Wavicle]

Is Whirlpool really more than 10% of Water Blasts damage output when fighting on +1/x2 (as my tests were)?

Edited May 19, 2023 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

On 5/17/2023 at 2:54 AM, Player-1 said:

@WindDemon21, I would advise that the best way to get our eyes and ears on something is to be objective as with @Wavicle in providing evidence to back up claims.

 

Just saying "X is godawful and the devs MUST do Y to fix it!" is guaranteed to be glazed over when compared to doing the work of "X is godawful because of ABC compared directly to DEF, it would be better if Y was done instead". Making dozens of posts in a row without stopping to dig down and bring up the specifics, resorting to hyperbole, and focusing on retorting with other posters rather than the actual issue at hand will only get posts like this critiquing the method of feedback. 

I just want to say thanks, I don't think anyone has ever called me objective before.

Also, big thanks to @Galaxy Brain for parsing the data for me.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Wavicle

[WindDemon21]

15 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Is Whirlpool really more than 10% of Water Blasts damage output when fighting on +1/x2 (as my tests were)?

Whirlpool does a good bit yeah, more overall than a normal aoe I wouldn't say but also depends on how you're encountering mobs though. IF you're fighting where it's timed that you're casting it at the start of every fight then it does a good bit. Rain powers in general ie rain of fire, whirlpool, and ice storm though even back on live i've always said they really should have a 30s base rech not 60 (and thus 60 for the epic ones)

 

They're useful, but not so much that they are really ok at 60s IMO, but as they are the closest thing to storm cell per use they were the best things to judge around.