Making the "Weave" power more accessible

[biostem]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:  There are precious few aspects left in the game where making a good or bad decision has lasting consequences, and build choice is one of them.  Allowing powers like weave to be taken with no opportunity cost only serves to further diminish build choice...

[honoroit]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again:  There are precious few aspects left in the game where making a good or bad decision has lasting consequences, and build choice is one of them.  Allowing powers like weave to be taken with no opportunity cost only serves to further diminish build choice...

 

it does the opposite, it means people will take skippable powers, or try another pool they cannot.

 

theres nothing but an increase in build variety by removing pool preselects, or getting kick punch up above tough weave odering wise.

[KaizenSoze]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again:  There are precious few aspects left in the game where making a good or bad decision has lasting consequences, and build choice is one of them.  Allowing powers like weave to be taken with no opportunity cost only serves to further diminish build choice...

I am not following this logic. If you allow weave to be available w/o boxing or kick, then players can take more powers which means more variation in builds.

 

For instance, I would probably take grant invisibility, assault, vengeance more often because I would have the extra pick and those powers are good with just one slot.

[biostem]

6 minutes ago, honoroit said:

it does the opposite, it means people will take skippable powers, or try another pool they cannot.

 

theres nothing but an increase in build variety by removing pool preselects, or getting kick punch up above tough weave odering wise.

 

5 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I am not following this logic. If you allow weave to be available w/o boxing or kick, then players can take more powers which means more variation in builds.

 

For instance, I would probably take grant invisibility, assault, vengeance more often because I would have the extra pick and those powers are good with just one slot.

 

It lessens the investment one must take to get weave.  That, by definition, reduces the opportunity cost to take weave.  On top of all that, since the meta is to take defense-granting powers in which to slot LotGs, that'd be even easier to achieve.  I have another idea - allow taking weave at 4, but doing so eliminates one of your power picks.

[honoroit]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

 

 

It lessens the investment one must take to get weave.  That, by definition, reduces the opportunity cost to take weave.  On top of all that, since the meta is to take defense-granting powers in which to slot LotGs, that'd be even easier to achieve.  I have another idea - allow taking weave at 4, but doing so eliminates one of your power picks.

 

it doesnt matter. 

 

opportunity cost IS a reduction in build variety.

 

the whole line of thinking here for pool reordering is that one takes kick/punch as a brawl replacement, or simply unbars it.

 

it is an punitive cost.

 

the same line of thinking had us taking leap-higher or moves-fast in fitness on the way to health/stamina.

 

i think theres almost universal agreement that that going inherent grsatly improved build variety.

 

its rubbish when your thinking, ok next 6 levels are the requisite tough/weave get, better get it iver with.

 

that opportunity cost can be equated to lost enjoyment in the leveling process paid as sacrifice to get a thing.

 

thats not fun, thats grindy and crappy and leaves you at the end with unbarred kick/punch.

 

no fun. no fun!

Edited June 24, 2023 by honoroit

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, honoroit said:

by a crappy brawl replace.

Let's take a look at that. I can't find Brawl on CoD, so just going to use Mids for this.

 

Brawl (on a Scrapper):

22.52 smashing damage

2 second recharge

0 END cost

-20% ToHit debuff, but only if you have either Boxing or Kick

-10% recharge debuff, but only if you have Boxing or Kick

 

Boxing (on a Scrapper):

49.92 smashing damage

57.41 smashing damage if you also have Kick

64.9 smashing damage if you also have Kick and Cross Punch

2.5 second recharge

4.42 END cost

Mag 2 Stun for 4.77 seconds with a 10% chance of triggering

Mag 2 Stun for 7.152 seconds with a 100% chance of triggering if you also have Kick

Mag 3 Stun for 4.77 seconds with a 35% chance of triggering if you also have Kick

 

Kick (on a Scrapper):

55.18 smashing damage

63.46 smashing damage if you also have Boxing

71.73 smashing damage if you also have Boxing and Cross Punch

3 second recharge

4.94 END cost

15% chance of scoring a KD

Looks like 30% chance of scoring a KD if you also have Boxing

-3% END to all targets with 100% chance if you also have Cross Punch

-5% REC to all targets for 4 seconds with 100% chance if you also have Cross Punch

 

Street Justice: Initial Strike (on a Scrapper):

57.81 smashing damage

3 second recharge

4.37 END cost

Mag 2 Stun for 7.152 seconds with a 10% chance of triggering

 

Street Justice: Heavy Blow (on a Scrapper):

79.83 smashing damage

5 second recharge

6.03 END cost

30% chance of scoring a KD

 

I may be biased, but that doesn't look at all crappy to me.

[honoroit]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Let's take a look at that. I can't find Brawl on CoD, so just going to use Mids for this.

 

Brawl (on a Scrapper):

22.52 smashing damage

2 second recharge

0 END cost

-20% ToHit debuff, but only if you have either Boxing or Kick

-10% recharge debuff, but only if you have Boxing or Kick

 

Boxing (on a Scrapper):

49.92 smashing damage

57.41 smashing damage if you also have Kick

64.9 smashing damage if you also have Kick and Cross Punch

2.5 second recharge

4.42 END cost

Mag 2 Stun for 4.77 seconds with a 10% chance of triggering

Mag 2 Stun for 7.152 seconds with a 100% chance of triggering if you also have Kick

Mag 3 Stun for 4.77 seconds with a 35% chance of triggering if you also have Kick

 

Kick (on a Scrapper):

55.18 smashing damage

63.46 smashing damage if you also have Boxing

71.73 smashing damage if you also have Boxing and Cross Punch

3 second recharge

4.94 END cost

15% chance of scoring a KD

Looks like 30% chance of scoring a KD if you also have Boxing

-3% END to all targets with 100% chance if you also have Cross Punch

-5% REC to all targets for 4 seconds with 100% chance if you also have Cross Punch

 

Street Justice: Initial Strike (on a Scrapper):

57.81 smashing damage

3 second recharge

4.37 END cost

Mag 2 Stun for 7.152 seconds with a 10% chance of triggering

 

Street Justice: Heavy Blow (on a Scrapper):

79.83 smashing damage

5 second recharge

6.03 END cost

30% chance of scoring a KD

 

I may be biased, but that doesn't look at all crappy to me.

good breakdown, but id prefer not to be forced to take it.

 

hence, power reordering or level-barred only but free choice, or allowing 3 (so tough) and weave only needing 1x.

[KaizenSoze]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

 

 

It lessens the investment one must take to get weave.  That, by definition, reduces the opportunity cost to take weave.  On top of all that, since the meta is to take defense-granting powers in which to slot LotGs, that'd be even easier to achieve.  I have another idea - allow taking weave at 4, but doing so eliminates one of your power picks.

 I understand opportunity costs. Still not following how this leads to less build choice.

 

Let's take Luck of the Gambler: Global recharge. It is my understanding, though I cannot find this limitation on the wiki, that slotting more than 5 has no effect.

 

Say someone really needs to maximize recharge. So, they stick LofG pieces everywhere. Limiting which sets they can use to maximize set bonuses. Now, if I get an extra power choice, because weave is easier to access. Now, I can take Grant Invisibility, because I take Infiltration on a lot of builds. And throw a LotG into that power, which allows me to use a different defense set where as before I had to LotG. This is more build diversity, not less.

 

Please, give me specific example of builds with specific powers where making weave's requirement lower leads to less build diversity. Talking in generalities does make you argument any clearer.

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, honoroit said:

it doesnt matter. 

 

opportunity cost IS a reduction in build variety.

 

the whole line of thinking here for pool reordering is that one takes kick/punch as a brawl replacement, or simply unbars it.

 

it is an punitive cost.

 

the same line of thinking had us taking leap-higher or moves-fast in fitness on the way to health/stamina.

 

i think theres almost universal agreement that that going inherent grsatly improved build variety.

 

its rubbish when your thinking, ok next 6 levels are the requisite tough/weave get, better get it iver with.

 

that opportunity cost can be equated to lost enjoyment in the leveling process paid as sacrifice to get a thing.

 

thats not fun, thats grindy and crappy and leaves you at the end with unbarred kick/punch.

 

no fun. no fun!

Unfortunately, "fun" cannot be the end-all, be-all of game balance.  I know it sounds counterintuitive, but having to plan your build and pick your limited selection of powers wisely *is* fun to some people.  Why not just give everyone every power at level 1?  Have you played Champions Online and their freeform system?  I bought a lifetime sub for that game back in '09, and it was a bad decision looking back on it.  I can make the more OP tankmage there, and it is no fun - it's just boring.  I want every power pick to matter, and I want to know that investing in going down the path of a power pool is a worthwhile endeavor.  Simply freeing up a power pick and getting what you want "now" doesn't actually make it more fun - it'll only make you want the next power with some prerequisite to be selectable without it...

[honoroit]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Unfortunately, "fun" cannot be the end-all, be-all of game balance.  I know it sounds counterintuitive, but having to plan your build and pick your limited selection of powers wisely *is* fun to some people.  Why not just give everyone every power at level 1?  Have you played Champions Online and their freeform system?  I bought a lifetime sub for that game back in '09, and it was a bad decision looking back on it.  I can make the more OP tankmage there, and it is no fun - it's just boring.  I want every power pick to matter, and I want to know that investing in going down the path of a power pool is a worthwhile endeavor.  Simply freeing up a power pick and getting what you want "now" doesn't actually make it more fun - it'll only make you want the next power with some prerequisite to be selectable without it...

 

am i eating too much candy?

[KaizenSoze]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Let's take a look at that. I can't find Brawl on CoD, so just going to use Mids for this.

 

Brawl (on a Scrapper):

22.52 smashing damage

2 second recharge

0 END cost

-20% ToHit debuff, but only if you have either Boxing or Kick

-10% recharge debuff, but only if you have Boxing or Kick

 

Boxing (on a Scrapper):

49.92 smashing damage

57.41 smashing damage if you also have Kick

64.9 smashing damage if you also have Kick and Cross Punch

2.5 second recharge

4.42 END cost

Mag 2 Stun for 4.77 seconds with a 10% chance of triggering

Mag 2 Stun for 7.152 seconds with a 100% chance of triggering if you also have Kick

Mag 3 Stun for 4.77 seconds with a 35% chance of triggering if you also have Kick

 

Kick (on a Scrapper):

55.18 smashing damage

63.46 smashing damage if you also have Boxing

71.73 smashing damage if you also have Boxing and Cross Punch

3 second recharge

4.94 END cost

15% chance of scoring a KD

Looks like 30% chance of scoring a KD if you also have Boxing

-3% END to all targets with 100% chance if you also have Cross Punch

-5% REC to all targets for 4 seconds with 100% chance if you also have Cross Punch

 

I may be biased, but that doesn't look at all crappy to me.

 Boxing and kick are perfectly fine powers for builds that melee. Should my defender or controller be required to take them just so I can get at more defense?

[biostem]

1 minute ago, KaizenSoze said:

Please, give me specific example of builds with specific powers where making weave's requirement lower leads to less build diversity.

You have things reversed - YOU are the one advocating for a change, and I am not convinced said change should be implemented.  Spouting "but muh build diversity" is not a valid reason - don't take weave, you have plenty of other choices.  Why not allow me blaster level damage and tanker level defenses all on 1 character?  It'd increase build diversity.  You haven't convinced me...

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

It is my understanding, though I cannot find this limitation on the wiki, that slotting more than 5 has no effect.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Enhancement_Set_Bonuses#The_Law_of_Fives

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Boxing and kick are perfectly fine powers for builds that melee. Should my defender or controller be required to take them just so I can get at more defense?

Yes.

[KaizenSoze]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

You have things reversed - YOU are the one advocating for a change, and I am not convinced said change should be implemented.  Spouting "but muh build diversity" is not a valid reason - don't take weave, you have plenty of other choices.  Why not allow me blaster level damage and tanker level defenses all on 1 character?  It'd increase build diversity.  You haven't convinced me...

Silly exaggerated straw men reply tells me there is nothing backing up your logic.

 

I have provided specific examples why lowering weave would help build diversity. You have not provided any specific examples of how it would hurt build diversity.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

 Boxing and kick are perfectly fine powers for builds that melee. Should my defender or controller be required to take them just so I can get at more defense?

There is Hover, Combat Jumping, Maneuvers, Stealth, and Infiltration also available. There are more defensive options than just Weave. And except for Weave, you can grab all of them without any prerequisites. Defense options galore.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, KaizenSoze said:

Silly exaggerated straw men reply tells me there is nothing backing up your logic.

Show me where I have misrepresented your stance, provide specific examples or retract your statement.

 

1 minute ago, KaizenSoze said:

I have provided specific examples why lowering weave would help build diversity. You have not provided any specific examples of how it would hurt build diversity.

You are using "build diversity" as a smokescreen for "I want weave without having to make an investment in the fighting pool".  You don't like boxing or kick, I get it - then don't take weave.  Weigh the costs - either weave *is* worth that extra power pick or it isn't.  If it isn't, then what are you arguing for?  If it is, then we're done now...

[megaericzero]

1 hour ago, honoroit said:

sorcery lets you at a combo teavel power. hasten. (full stop)

 

The devil is in the details. Sorcery gives you teleport as a BOGO for taking its version of fly. Hasten has always been a controversial power and, even then, has drawbacks - not compensating your increased endurance consumption, a crash, and a bar for build investment to perma.

 

32 minutes ago, honoroit said:

the same line of thinking had us taking leap-higher or moves-fast in fitness on the way to health/stamina.

 

The delta in performance with and without stamina made the game pretty unplayable and the live devs did eventually agree. And that was for every archetype. The difference between weave and no-weave is far less and not applicable to all archetypes.

 

19 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Should my defender or controller be required to take them just so I can get at more defense?

 

Yes. You chose an archetype that isn't armored. It's one of your vulnerabilities and there's a cost to shore it up.

 

Before you tear me a new one on game design for saying that, I did acknowledge in an earlier post that it's a Gygax design artefact. Games have shifted to have less polarized class stats over the years but there's still some level to which classes should differ and that includes having deficits. Otherwise your choice is reduced to just what animations you want your tankmage to have.

Edited June 24, 2023 by megaericzero

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Before you tear me a new one on game design for saying that, I did mention in an earlier post that it's a Gygax design artefact. Games have shifted to have less polarized class stats over the years but there's still some level to which classes should differ and that includes having deficits. Otherwise your choice is reduced to just what animations you want your tankmage to have.

To expand upon this, there are sets in those other ATs, such as force field or sonic resonance, which allow you to beef up your own durability, but at the *expense* of other buffs or debuffs.  That's what I love about CoH - you have sets that stick closer to the "classic" view of the archetypes and ones that deviate.  You want to fill those gaps in your defenses, on an AT that has many?  It's gonna cost you...

[honoroit]

but its boring. to have to do it every time. after hundreds.

 

its boring. 

[megaericzero]

2 minutes ago, honoroit said:

but its boring. to have to do it every time. after hundreds.

 

I really don't mean to come off as an a-hole but, honestly, that's a choice. There are a handful archetypes that don't really even benefit from weave (depending on armor set).

 

The meta has been about capped defense for a long, long time now but if that's all you're building maybe it's worth trying something suboptimal. It might suck but it might also turn out to be a fun and refreshing character.

[biostem]

9 minutes ago, honoroit said:

but its boring. to have to do it every time. after hundreds.

You use the phrase "have to", but the only thing compelling you to take weave "after hundreds" is yourself.  Try branching out your builds.  I assure you, weave is *not* required...

[KaizenSoze]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

There is Hover, Combat Jumping, Maneuvers, Stealth, and Infiltration also available. There are more defensive options than just Weave. And except for Weave, you can grab all of them without any prerequisites. Defense options galore.

Sigh. Stealth and infiltration are mutual exclusive and lose a ton of the defense value when you get hit.

 

You only have four pools and epic available. Using defender values I would have to take both hover and combat jump to equal weave, 2.5% + 2.5% = weave's 5% That's two pools vs one. And how many people take both hover and CJ?

 

As for maneuvers it's only 3.5%, to achieve soft cap in a few types of defense. I usually need to take maneuvers + weave + scorpion shield. That's two pools and the epic down and then there is the whole hasten discussion which is out of scope.

[KaizenSoze]

58 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Before you tear me a new one on game design for saying that, I did mention in an earlier post that it's a Gygax design artefact. Games have shifted to have less polarized class stats over the years but there's still some level to which classes should differ and that includes having deficits. Otherwise your choice is reduced to just what animations you want your tankmage to have.

You had a very reasonable reply, right up to invoking the tankmage strawman. Most of my builds already have to take leadership, speed, concealment, and fighting to achieve the defense values I prefer. Removing the weave requirement gets me another power selection which I could use to improvement my builds a little with some one slot powers like Grant Invis, Assault, and Vengeance. Now, if I could take two epic pools that would be a tankmage. Something I would be against.

 

Allowing one extra power would not break the game, but would provide some benefit w/o sticking non-melee builds with a useless melee power. The only arguments I hear are it's always been that way, never a good argument against change. Power creep which this change would only add one extra power without out any extra slots to build out said extra power. The power creep would be minimal. If you think I am wrong on the power creep argument, please tell me the power you would take that be so beneficial that to justify not removing weave's restrictions.   

[Rudra]

32 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

And how many people take both hover and CJ?

*raises hand*

 

32 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

As for maneuvers it's only 3.5%, to achieve soft cap in a few types of defense.

So the goal isn't fun, it's improved min-maxing/character optimization. Which is full on power creep. Well, maybe power trot. In a game that is already of questionable difficulty to even casual players from all the previous power creep. You see, that is the issue I have with the request. That it is all about improved min-maxing. About freeing up power slots to load up on even more defense, resist, or damage. Nevermind how easy the game already is. Which was the driving factor in the creation of the Hard Mode content. Which with more power slots to better optimize their characters, will eventually get to the point of even that not being a challenge.

 

Edit: And by the way, Maneuvers is +DEF (All), not +Def (Some).

 

Edit: You might be surprised by the things you can pair up when you don't chase the Holy Quad. You may not as well. Just saying there are lots of options for character building when you don't limit yourself to the Holy Quad.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Rudra