Kings Row Needs Adjustment

[RikOz]

Apparently, the newer story content in Kings Row has caused some sweeping, zone-wide changes. One change seems to be that the whole zone is completely overrun by Skulls, and groups like The Lost are no longer appearing where they used to appear (now there are more Skulls in those places).

 

But I'm here to discuss the level range of the zone.

 

The zone menu at the tram station still indicates that KR is a level 5-10 zone.

 

However, street mobs over nearly the entire zone are now in the level 10-15 range, on par with Steel Canyon South and Skyway City North.

 

This becomes a problem because the various contacts in Atlas Park continue to introduce Kings Row contacts when the player character is around levels 5-7, and the Atlas Park contact, Aaron Thiery, becomes unavailable as soon as the player reaches level 8, making the second half of Matthew Habashy's story suddenly unavailable if the player hasn't already started it. [EDIT: These mechanics are clearly intended to push the player along to Kings Row and out of Atlas Park.] And then the "older" contacts in KR are still handing out missions based on the character and KR mobs being in the 5-10 range. This results in an issue where the first missions most of these contacts offer are "street-sweeping" missions. Missions to defeat mobs in KR that are now too high-level for the mission level. In other words, as soon as the player character is high-level enough to tackle the street mobs in KR, the KR contacts stop offering missions and instead start introducing contacts in Steel Canyon and Skyway City.

 

This includes the second tier of Shining Stars missions, which start in Kings Row when the player reaches level 10. One of the earliest missions here sends the player all the way to the north end of KR, to talk to Dillo, who tells the player to beat up 10 Skulls in that neighborhood (Skulls elsewhere in the zone don't count for this mission). Except that all of those Skulls are now level 14-15 and conning red or purple to the player.

 

In short, it seems that the new, previously-unreleased content for Kings Row was not finished at the time of Sundown. The new Superadine storyline is fine, but otherwise the rest of the zone has been rendered more or less obsolete by the combination of the overscaled mobs + regular contacts whose level range has not been adjusted to reflect the changes.

 

 

[PaxArcana]

+1

 

Even inside missions in KR, I'm having a seriously hard time facing mobs that are +2 and +3 to my poor Level 10 Corruptor.

[Wereowl9]

I agree

 

I understand that a game like this should ramp up in difficultly as the player levels up and therefore gains more skill in the game but either the current ramp up in skill is unable to keep up with the games difficulty or the game is failing to communicate a concept that will allow for beating of the area at the suggested character level.

 

Thank you.  :)

[PaxArcana]

Wereowl9, it's not a matter of player skill.

 

It's a matter of character level.  If, at level 7 to 12, you're facing enemies who are +1, +2, even +3 to you, and you're not playing a Tank, a Brute, or a Scrapper .... your face has just been given a probably-nonoptional appointment with the floor.  Whether it's your first character, or your fiftieth.  Whether you've been playing the game for 5 hours, or 5,000.

[OEM61]

I noticed this to.

 

I don't know why the zone got out of line, but yeah, it would be nice if they could turn it back into a 5-10 zone instead of an 8-15 zone or whatever it is right now.

 

Heck, if they think that they need 15s there for whatever reason then fine, but they need to make sure that they stick them in a specific neighborhood and that no one is going to send any level 5-10 characters into those neighborhoods, and certainly not for street-sweeping missions.

[Fista]

I've taken 6 to 8 characters through all this and had no problems. I suggest you review your tactics and learn to be patient. The spawns are there and you have to learn to pick your targets. You can't take out every group. Look for the weakest in the group and just take that one out and then leave. Fly, jump, run. teleport away.

[justicebeliever]

I've taken 6 to 8 characters through all this and had no problems. I suggest you review your tactics and learn to be patient. The spawns are there and you have to learn to pick your targets. You can't take out every group. Look for the weakest in the group and just take that one out and then leave. Fly, jump, run. teleport away.

 

I haven’t had issues (except trying to hunt Vahz in KR - had to autocomplete that mish).  But it doesn't sound like tactics are the issue for others

 

Even inside missions in KR, I'm having a seriously hard time facing mobs that are +2 and +3 to my poor Level 10 Corruptor.

 

You can’t exactly leave a mission and run away.  The strike quick and run away is pretty difficult, and extremely tiresome if all the mobs are showing orange/red/purple.  I mean how many times should a person be forced to leave and reenter the mission?

 

Pax, have you tried adjusting your difficulty slider? You really shouldn’t be getting +3 mobs in a missionon standard difficulty

 

This includes the second tier of Shining Stars missions, which start in Kings Row when the player reaches level 10. One of the earliest missions here sends the player all the way to the north end of KR, to talk to Dillo, who tells the player to beat up 10 Skulls in that neighborhood (Skulls elsewhere in the zone don't count for this mission). Except that all of those Skulls are now level 14-15 and conning red or purple to the player.

 

Again, doesn't seem like tactics are the issue.  Level 10 players shouldn't be forced to fight red/purples to street sweep

[PaxArcana]

Even inside missions in KR, I'm having a seriously hard time facing mobs that are +2 and +3 to my poor Level 10 Corruptor.

 

You can’t exactly leave a mission and run away.

 

Pax, have you tried adjusting your difficulty slider? You really shouldn’t be getting +3 mobs in a missionon standard difficulty

... and that's the thing, see: I've left it at teh default x0/+0 .... yet, I am seeing mobs that are 1 or 2 levels above the mission (and when I am occasionally 1 level below the mission, that's when I see +3's).

 

The issue is definitely not tactics.  It's balance.  It's mobs showing up higher level than they should, and/or, missions being put in places that are much higher threat than the mission is supposed to send you against.

[justicebeliever]

... and that's the thing, see: I've left it at teh default x0/+0 .... yet, I am seeing mobs that are 1 or 2 levels above the mission (and when I am occasionally 1 level below the mission, that's when I see +3's).

 

The issue is definitely not tactics.  It's balance.  It's mobs showing up higher level than they should, and/or, missions being put in places that are much higher threat than the mission is supposed to send you against.

 

I realized my earlier post was grammatically saying that tactics were the issue.  I updated it, because I agree with you 100%.

[PaxArcana]

No worries, Justice, the bit about tactics was aimed more at a previous poster ... um, ::scrolls back:: Fista, who insists he got 6-8 characters through KR "with no problem", and suggests the problem is player tactics.  (I have to wonder if he solo'd his way through it, though.)

[EggKookoo]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind an overall look at some low-level content. Now that travel powers are available at level 4, door missions could send players deeper into KR or even SC. It's easier to avoid the purples along the way.

[PaxArcana]

Easier for Flight, not as easy for SJ or SS.

 

And Teleport is it's own thing, that either you get later ('cause you pick up Hover to go with it), or it's fairly risky ('cause: gravity).

[RikOz]

Right, my point is that KR is supposed to be a level 5-10 zone, and all of the older content is still designed around that concept. Technically speaking, a character is supposed to get the heck out of Atlas Park no later than level 7 or so and move on to Kings Row. Then Steel Canyon and Skyway City are supposed to be the next step up at level 10. The Shining Stars mission I mentioned in the OP is supposed to serve the exact purpose of moving the character to the next zone. Dillo tells you to defeat those Skulls and then go talk to Grym at the University in Steel Canyon.

 

But as it stands now, Steel and Skyway are "easier" than Kings Row, when they're meant to be the next level of difficulty/challenge.

 

All this is why I suspect that the new material that was still unreleased at Sundown was simply not finished. I think the original devs still had adjustments to implement but just hadn't gotten that far yet, and then they never got the chance.

 

Keep in mind that I'm also trying to look at this from the point of view of a brand new player, of which we do have some. A new player who has leveled via missions, not repeated DFB runs, who hasn't yet figured out how to ideally slot their powers, and who might still have some stuff unslotted simply because they don't have the Inf and haven't gotten ideal drops.

[PaxArcana]

Also it's important old-time players who prefer to level by doing missions, and storylines.  "The old-fashioned way", if you will.

 

In my case, it's because I want to enjoy the nostalgia of it all.

[Fista]

I haven’t had issues (except trying to hunt Vahz in KR - had to autocomplete that mish).  But it doesn't sound like tactics are the issue for others

 

Even inside missions in KR, I'm having a seriously hard time facing mobs that are +2 and +3 to my poor Level 10 Corruptor.

 

You can’t exactly leave a mission and run away.  The strike quick and run away is pretty difficult, and extremely tiresome if all the mobs are showing orange/red/purple.  I mean how many times should a person be forced to leave and reenter the mission?

 

Clarification. I meant during street sweeping missions.

 

Pax, have you tried adjusting your difficulty slider? You really shouldn’t be getting +3 mobs in a missionon standard difficulty

 

This includes the second tier of Shining Stars missions, which start in Kings Row when the player reaches level 10. One of the earliest missions here sends the player all the way to the north end of KR, to talk to Dillo, who tells the player to beat up 10 Skulls in that neighborhood (Skulls elsewhere in the zone don't count for this mission). Except that all of those Skulls are now level 14-15 and conning red or purple to the player.

 

Again, doesn't seem like tactics are the issue.  Level 10 players shouldn't be forced to fight red/purples to street sweep

 

There are Orange and Yellows are there. I've done it multiple times. It does seem to be a matter of tactics and patience. Nothing you've said changes that. If this is a problem what are they going to do when they run into an AV? Maybe try teaming? That actually seems the easiest way.  I don't want to seem like I'm bragging but I did it multiple times. I don't see why others can't.  As far as issues in mission? Lower your difficulty. Pretty easy.

[justicebeliever]

There are Orange and Yellows are there. I've done it multiple times. It does seem to be a matter of tactics and patience. Nothing you've said changes that. If this is a problem what are they going to do when they run into an AV? Maybe try teaming? That actually seems the easiest way.  I don't want to seem like I'm bragging but I did it multiple times. I don't see why others can't.  As far as issues in mission? Lower your difficulty. Pretty easy.

 

As for difficulty slider, you really shouldn’t see much red for missions (bosses only, and even then pretty sparingly) on the standard difficulty and if you are, it’s likely a bug.

 

As for AV you can solo all the way thru and never see one unless you are soloing TF.  In fact, I’d argue that the way the game is supposed to be designed, no one should be able to solo an AV (I know it can be done, but it’s nothing any player should have to worry about).

 

And I get that there are some yellow/oranges there, but again, game design shouldn’t put the player in positions where the best they can hope for is a yellow to show up and that no red or purples pop up around the corner.

 

So the question isn’t is it doable, but rather is it appropriate for the level to solo.  Now I will say that same design still needs to provide some challenge for entire level range of that contact, so for a lvl 10-15 you should ideally have lvl 10 minions and lvl 15 bosses (which would be deep purple to a lvl 10), but more on the lower side and less on the higher side.

 

Sounds like from RikOz’s experience that’s not the case?

[PaxArcana]

There are Orange and Yellows are there. I've done it multiple times. It does seem to be a matter of tactics and patience.

Not all Archetypes - and within Archetypes, not all Powerset combinations - can handle Orange and Yellow enemies without serious, serious difficulty.

 

If this is a problem what are they going to do when they run into an AV? Maybe try teaming? That actually seems the easiest way.

The entire philosophy of City of Heroes is that any Archetype, with any combination of powersets, shoudl be able to SOLO nearly every ordinary mission in the game.

 

Yet here you are, arguing in favor of what would essentially be forced Teaming.

 

I don't want to seem like I'm bragging but I did it multiple times. I don't see why others can't.

On what ATs?  With what powersets?  At what levels?  (Because what's Orange or Yellow to a L10 hero, is Purple to a L5 hero ... and King's Row is meant for L5s as much as L10s.)

 

There is a world of difference soloing solid-yellow-and-orange missions as a Brute, Scrapper, or Tank, compared to a Corruptor or Controller.

 

As far as issues in mission? Lower your difficulty. Pretty easy.

Maybe you missed that I've been regularly having issues, with a +0/x0 difficulty setting?  It's not possible to lower it further, as far as I know.

[OEM61]

Patience is all well and good as long as the mobs are spawning at reasonable levels and in reasonable numbers.

 

I am certainly not saying that I haven't been able to get the job done or that there are no 5-10 mobs of whatever type in KR at all, but there are plenty of 11+ mobs, too, and it makes street sweeping missions more work than they should be, especially for non-flying toons.

 

Sure, sometimes you can find level-appropriate Clockwork just across from the monorail.  And sometimes you find Tesla Knights and Tesla Dukes that are conning red and life is a whole lot more difficult than it should be for someone that was told that KR is appropriate for their 5th or 6th level character that may well not have picked up a travel power yet.

 

Those Skulls that Dillo says you must defeat?  You can cross all of High park and might not find 10 that are in the 5-10 range.  You may not find any in that range.

 

Doable?  Sure.  Like I said, I did it.  Multiple people have done it.

Fun?  Enjoyable?  The way that it is supposed to be in a zone marked 5-10 for characters doing missions marked 5-10?  Those first two are debatable, the last is almost certainly "no".

[justicebeliever]

Maybe you missed that I've been regularly having issues, with a +0/x0 difficulty setting?  It's not possible to lower it further, as far as I know.

 

You can lower the difficulty one level down to -1

[RikOz]

If it helps, install Vidiotmaps. It's still valid ... except for Kings Row. Boy is it off. It clearly illustrates how out of whack KR is now. In the "red" neighborhood in the north, it shows nothing higher than level 9. Go to the area yourself, and good luck finding anything lower than level 11.

[Redlynne]

Maybe you missed that I've been regularly having issues, with a +0/x0 difficulty setting?  It's not possible to lower it further, as far as I know.

 

You can lower the difficulty one level down to -1

 

That works for instanced Door Missions.

For street sweeping out in the open world ... not so much ...

[EggKookoo]

Easier for Flight, not as easy for SJ or SS.

 

And Teleport is it's own thing, that either you get later ('cause you pick up Hover to go with it), or it's fairly risky ('cause: gravity).

 

Well, or Jump Pack or any of the P2W stuff. I guess a newbie might not know about that but there are options.

[justicebeliever]

The jump packs shut down after 30 sec.  They are great for supplementing travel, not super great for combat.  Good for get aways, but I sometimes end up landing in places I don’t want to due to the lack of flight and the engine cutting out.

 

Well, or Jump Pack or any of the P2W stuff. I guess a newbie might not know about that but there are options.

[Leogunner]

 

If this is a problem what are they going to do when they run into an AV? Maybe try teaming? That actually seems the easiest way.

The entire philosophy of City of Heroes is that any Archetype, with any combination of powersets, shoudl be able to SOLO nearly every ordinary mission in the game.

 

Yet here you are, arguing in favor of what would essentially be forced Teaming.

 

I don't want to seem like I'm bragging but I did it multiple times. I don't see why others can't.

On what ATs?  With what powersets?  At what levels?  (Because what's Orange or Yellow to a L10 hero, is Purple to a L5 hero ... and King's Row is meant for L5s as much as L10s.)

 

There is a world of difference soloing solid-yellow-and-orange missions as a Brute, Scrapper, or Tank, compared to a Corruptor or Controller.

 

As far as issues in mission? Lower your difficulty. Pretty easy.

Maybe you missed that I've been regularly having issues, with a +0/x0 difficulty setting?  It's not possible to lower it further, as far as I know.

 

Meh, I think you should just dial back the concern here.

 

Paragon, as it's always been, just has various multitudes of early content, from Perez street sweeps to Sewer network runs, obviously DFB and defunct Galaxy City or the classic Hollows...

 

There are just a lot of options and latching onto this particular progressions (King's Row) as somehow jarring is sort of making a mountain out of a mole hill.  On top of having travel powers starting at 4, at best I could see this particular issue just being a product of yore when games sometime unapologetically threw you a curve ball and you didn't hear people collectively pooling their discontent over a nothing burger.

[PaxArcana]

Leogunner, two things.

 

First, my Corrupter has 1 or 2 story-arcs already going in KR.  So she's kind of stuck there.

 

Second, just because there's other places that aren't broken, doesn't mean we should not fix places that are.