Lockouts, savage melee/assault, psy melee

[WindDemon21]

Just now, biostem said:

Which is a CHOICE you, the player, can make whether to use or not.  Use them?  Lose the buff.  Don't use them, keep it.  Easy as.

 

Give me a specific example of another set's mitigation that you believe to be better than a global 20% recharge & 30% end redux buff.  Even then, just play those other sets, then...

Again, you're NOT  going to be constantly at those max stats, and easily.

 

Pretty much any of the sky splitter buffs.

 

Big defense bonus from most weapon sets.

 

Constant to hit/damage buff on claws/dual blades/super strength.

 

Lots of mitigation on sets with more knockdowns. Lots of sets that also translate to more rech via force feedback slotting, vicious slash is really not great at proccing that.

 

Ice Patch

 

Sets with a hold/stun to nullify/detoggle certain enemies.

 

There are lots, most sets have something they bring to the table. Savage's main thing is the buff from those stacks, so again, really dumb having that lockout there.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Pretty much any of the sky splitter buffs.

So 1 attack out of an entire set.  Riiiight.

 

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Big defense bonus from most weapon sets.

Do you mean the 1 attack from broadsword and katana?

 

3 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Constant to hit/damage buff on claws/dual blades/super strength.

Again, 1 attack does not make a set, and let's not forget the lockout from rage or the need to complete a combo in DB to maximize the buff.

 

4 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Lots of mitigation on sets with more knockdowns. Lots of sets that also translate to more rech via force feedback slotting, vicious slash is really not great at proccing that.

And savage can slot plenty of procs as well, but that's not what we're talking about, here.  Don't muddy the waters.

 

5 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Ice Patch

1 power.

 

6 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Sets with a hold/stun to nullify/detoggle certain enemies.

Few and far between.

 

6 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

There are lots, most sets have something they bring to the table. Savage's main thing is the buff from those stacks, so again, really dumb having that lockout there.

It's only "really dumb" if you are unable to unwilling to work within the way the set functions.  If it's too difficult for you, the good news is there are plenty of other options for you to play.

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

So 1 attack out of an entire set.  Riiiight.

 

Do you mean the 1 attack from broadsword and katana?

 

Again, 1 attack does not make a set, and let's not forget the lockout from rage or the need to complete a combo in DB to maximize the buff.

 

And savage can slot plenty of procs as well, but that's not what we're talking about, here.  Don't muddy the waters.

 

1 power.

 

Few and far between.

 

It's only "really dumb" if you are unable to unwilling to work within the way the set functions.  If it's too difficult for you, the good news is there are plenty of other options for you to play.

If you really think that when i mentioned most of  those, that those are the ONLY benefits to those melee sets, you clearly aren't understanding this game. There is a LOT more to staff for example, that was just one power picked out as an example, and even that is more than that, Same with ice patch, etc.

 

Staff, and titan weapons get the defense buff attack as well. on brutes/tanks at least, though should be scrap/stalkers too, MA gets a defense bonus.

 

Ice melee also has freezing tough and frozen aura.

 

FU/BF, don't make a set, no, but it is a huge part of them. Both have really good mitigation in focus/shockwave/1c cuts/sweep combo.

 

Really trying to nitpick because only one power was mentioned as if that's all those sets have. Really pathetic argument, and in no way detracts from what I/We have been saying about the issues with the lockouts. Again, just because you don't mind, doesn't mean most of us don't, or that it would OP/Detract from the set to have those lockouts removed.

 

There is a MAJOR difference between too difficult, and just plain annoying/unnecessary. It's laughable where your frame of thought is on this thinking we don't understand how it works..

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

TBH, while i like the benefit of the buffs, not ONCE have i ever though of the blood stacks as "too good" to have that lockout. Especially when, in any normal play, they get consumed, you are never permanently at the max buffs. Your average stacks across a battle are maybe about 2.5 on average to keep in mind, and that's if there was no blood lockout at all.

 

I'd much rather have there just be no finishers, and the buffs just be there for you that build up in more of a rage-type fashion or something.

Even at 2.5 stacks average, that translates to 15% END discount for all powers and 10% +recharge for all powers. Without need for any enhancements, enhancement set bonuses, or power picks. Take away the finishers? And now you can sustain the full 5 stacks for 30% END discount for all powers and 20% +recharge for all powers.* Without using enhancements, enhancement set bonuses, or using up any power picks. Pretty hefty boost....

 

Now I for one am not a fan of the lockouts. (I can work with them though. On my savage melee character, I do my best to avoid having the full 5 stacks of Blood Frenzy. So I hit a finisher as soon as I have four counters.) That said, what Blood Frenzy gives is rather strong. What would you give up to maintain the balance?

 

Edit:

* - I say this because it never seems to take me any time to get my stacks back. And no finishers means nothing to consume the stacks any more.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Rudra

[biostem]

1 minute ago, WindDemon21 said:

If you really think that when i mentioned most of  those, that those are the ONLY benefits to those melee sets, you clearly aren't understanding this game. There is a LOT more to staff for example, that was just one power picked out as an example, and even that is more than that, Same with ice patch, etc.

Then it is a failure on your part to not express all the points you wanted to make.  I'm not psychic.

 

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Really trying to nitpick because only one power was mentioned as if that's all those sets have. Really pathetic argument, and in no way detracts from what I/We have been saying about the issues with the lockouts. Again, just because you don't mind, doesn't mean most of us don't, or that it would OP/Detract from the set to have those lockouts removed.

Not my fault you can't articulate your points coherently.

 

Either way, I'm dipping out of this conversation.  I like savage melee just fine, and have no problems maximizing the aspects of any set I want to play.  If you can't do so, then the problem does not lie with the set.  You aren't going to get a 20% rech and 30% end redux buff global buff without having to "pay for it" in some way...

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

Then it is a failure on your part to not express all the points you wanted to make.  I'm not psychic.

 

Right, my fault for assuming you knew more about this game and it's powers than simply just your experience on savage melee when you broadly stated asking what else other sets bring to the table as if they didn't also bring anything worthwhile.

 

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

You aren't going to get a 20% rech and 30% end redux buff global buff without having to "pay for it" in some way...

Nobody is, as you seem to once again miss that even without the lockouts you're not going to be running constantly with the max stacks. And we are paying for it via the lack of mitigation/defensive buffs/debuffs that other sets have. So when we're locked out, we're paying for it with essentially no bonus at that point too then.

Edited August 9, 2023 by WindDemon21

[WindDemon21]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Even at 2.5 stacks average, that translates to 15% END discount for all powers and 10% +recharge for all powers. Without need for any enhancements, enhancement set bonuses, or power picks. Take away the finishers? And now you can sustain the full 5 stacks for 30% END discount for all powers and 20% +recharge for all powers.* Without using enhancements, enhancement set bonuses, or using up any power picks. Pretty hefty boost....

 

Now I for one am not a fan of the lockouts. (I can work with them though. On my savage melee character, I do my best to avoid having the full 5 stacks of Blood Frenzy. So I hit a finisher as soon as I have four counters.) That said, what Blood Frenzy gives is rather strong. What would you give up to maintain the balance?

 

Edit:

* - I say this because it never seems to take me any time to get my stacks back. And no finishers means nothing to consume the stacks any more.

Right, I didn't say the stacks did nothing, quite the opposite which is why the annoyance of the lockouts. As those stacks are the main benefit of the set since it hardly has any mitigation and other effects. Nothing would need to be given up, as it's already traded off for that lack of mitigation/other buffs/debuffs that other sets get. The blood stacks ARE the tradeoff for not having those, why it's extra dumb to completely lock out (for a very long time in battle too) of those stacks which the set is balanced around.

 

When most people are actively trying to avoid using the finishers, it's really a bad set design, which is mostly completely due to the lockouts.

 

And you misunderstood, when i mentioned removing the finishers as a suggestion, meaning that you'd lose the extra damage boosts on those finishers at the tradeoff within the set of being able to consistently have more blood stack buffs. (This would also mean no extra damage with less than max stats too, as a suggested tradeoff for losing the lockouts, though this isn't necessary, removing the lockouts would be all that's needed)

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

And we are paying for it via the lack of mitigation/defensive buffs/debuffs that other sets have

Savage Melee has DoTs that continue the damage after the initial damage from the attack, -Def (All), KD, - running speed, jumping speed, and jumping height, and an AoE damage gap closer. So it does have mitigation in the form of KD in an attack that can be used every 9 seconds before you slot enhancements or factor in Blood Frenzy. And it does have defense debuffs in a cone attack that reduces DEF by 9% for 10 seconds that can be used every 7.5 seconds before you slot enhancements or factor Blood Frenzy. And both of those attacks grant Blood Frenzy, making their recharge better just by using those attacks.

 

Edit: And Blood Thirst revokes the lockout while granting 5 stacks of Blood Frenzy too....

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_melee.savage_melee.blood_thirst&at=scrapper

Edited August 9, 2023 by Rudra

[Captain Fabulous]

/powercreep

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Savage Melee has DoTs that continue the damage after the initial damage from the attack, -Def (All), KD, - running speed, jumping speed, and jumping height, and an AoE damage gap closer. So it does have mitigation in the form of KD in an attack that can be used every 9 seconds before you slot enhancements or factor in Blood Frenzy. And it does have defense debuffs in a cone attack that reduces DEF by 9% for 10 seconds that can be used every 7.5 seconds before you slot enhancements or factor Blood Frenzy. And both of those attacks grant Blood Frenzy, making their recharge better just by using those attacks.

 

Edit: And Blood Thirst revokes the lockout while granting 5 stacks of Blood Frenzy too....

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_melee.savage_melee.blood_thirst&at=scrapper

We're aware of that, where that also limits the initial burst damage on the set too in a big way for the alpha strike. Those other things mentioned, just a -speed debuff means extremely little outside of pvp, especially with doms. The -defense in the cone is one of the only other real benefits as far as buff/debuff, and mainly on the dom version, melee version cone is there but it's, not that great. (would definitely make sense for that cone to get the 120 degree angle that shadow maul got).

 

Fyi, shred is already on a 2.17s cast time, which already negates the small bonus granted by the blood stacks. and also in fuller builds becomes essentially null compared to that longer cast time. Vicious slash as well, you aren't accounting for the 1.67 cast time. Which isn't bad, just stating that its 10.67s base cycle, not 9 seconds (really 10.802 arcanatime), Where that cast time factors in to minimizing the benefit on the attacks themselves of that small recharge boost especially on fuller builds.

[WindDemon21]

55 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

/powercreep

/notthatmuchpowercreep

 

Different benefit versus other sets, not OP. We're also talking the difference between what can be done now, and what it would be without a lockout (which again, taking the average buff, not going to be at a full 5 stacks constantly)

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Vicious slash as well, you aren't accounting for the 1.67 cast time. Which isn't bad, just stating that its 10.67s base cycle, not 9 seconds (really 10.802 arcanatime)

Really? I'm not even against the OP, but I find that line of reasoning hard to swallow. How long does it take a mob on average to regain his/her/its feet after being knocked down? Just with a Mako's Bite Damage/Recharge, Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge, and Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge slotted; absolutely no other enhancements slotted so no set bonuses from anything, no other powers picked so nothing else is affecting its recharge, Vicious Slash is down to 5.41 seconds of recharge. Just 3 enhancements. That's it. Want me to finish building the character and see what it gets down to just slotting for general combat and survivability? How about if I chase the Holy Quad and include Hasten and all 5 Luck of The Gambler procs we can use and still get the bonus? How about if I factor in other sets that also give a global recharge buff? Or how about I turn on Blood Frenzy and see what 3 or 4 stacks of it does for its recharge? (Full disclosure: My Savage Melee/Fiery Aura character has a recharge of 4.45 seconds on Vicious Slash. And most players would find my global recharge buff on the character to be laughable.)

 

Like I said, I am not a fan of the lockout. You have no idea how much I want to be in favor of the OP. However, your argument fails to convince. You are citing an attack with a 67% chance of scoring a KD effect, that can with only 3 enhancements that each split their effect between recharge and at least 1 other buff for reduced effect, no set bonuses of any kind, and not even factoring in Blood Frenzy's own effect since the power grants TWO stacks of Blood Frenzy for being used for another +8% recharge by itself, as the set lacking mitigation.

 

(Edit: And that isn't even getting into the other things Savage Melee does. All I'm asking for is that you give an honest debate about the set. The lockout sucks, I agree. It definitely looks required for balance to me though.)

 

Edit again: My personal take for getting rid of the lockout? We lose the endurance reduction and recharge effects. All of it. Gone. The Blood Frenzy stacks empower the finishers to do more damage like they do now. Maybe slightly more. Or lose either the endurance reduction or the recharge reduction, and reduce the other by half, keeping Bloody Frenzy as a boost for the finishers. Under those conditions? I could see no need for any lockout to exist on the set any more.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Rudra

[Saiyajinzoningen]

[General Idiot]

I thought lockouts were a stupid idea when the live devs first added one to Water Blast and my opinion has not changed in the however many years it's been since then, they're still a stupid idea now and only more so for each new set that comes with a mandatory 'no you don't get to use your fun gimmick for this completely arbitrary period' mechanic. If removing the lockout would make the powers unbalanced as is, then rebalance them so they're not.

[WindDemon21]

On 8/9/2023 at 8:11 PM, Rudra said:

Really? I'm not even against the OP, but I find that line of reasoning hard to swallow. How long does it take a mob on average to regain his/her/its feet after being knocked down? Just with a Mako's Bite Damage/Recharge, Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge, and Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge slotted; absolutely no other enhancements slotted so no set bonuses from anything, no other powers picked so nothing else is affecting its recharge, Vicious Slash is down to 5.41 seconds of recharge. Just 3 enhancements. That's it. Want me to finish building the character and see what it gets down to just slotting for general combat and survivability? How about if I chase the Holy Quad and include Hasten and all 5 Luck of The Gambler procs we can use and still get the bonus? How about if I factor in other sets that also give a global recharge buff? Or how about I turn on Blood Frenzy and see what 3 or 4 stacks of it does for its recharge? (Full disclosure: My Savage Melee/Fiery Aura character has a recharge of 4.45 seconds on Vicious Slash. And most players would find my global recharge buff on the character to be laughable.)

 

Like I said, I am not a fan of the lockout. You have no idea how much I want to be in favor of the OP. However, your argument fails to convince. You are citing an attack with a 67% chance of scoring a KD effect, that can with only 3 enhancements that each split their effect between recharge and at least 1 other buff for reduced effect, no set bonuses of any kind, and not even factoring in Blood Frenzy's own effect since the power grants TWO stacks of Blood Frenzy for being used for another +8% recharge by itself, as the set lacking mitigation.

 

(Edit: And that isn't even getting into the other things Savage Melee does. All I'm asking for is that you give an honest debate about the set. The lockout sucks, I agree. It definitely looks required for balance to me though.)

 

Edit again: My personal take for getting rid of the lockout? We lose the endurance reduction and recharge effects. All of it. Gone. The Blood Frenzy stacks empower the finishers to do more damage like they do now. Maybe slightly more. Or lose either the endurance reduction or the recharge reduction, and reduce the other by half, keeping Bloody Frenzy as a boost for the finishers. Under those conditions? I could see no need for any lockout to exist on the set any more.

I'm not saying it's a bad attack at all i think you misconstrued that. What I am saying, is that especially in /melee, it's the only attack that has any mitigation. I was explaining adding the cast time to the equation for relating to other sets that also provide mitigation.

 

So for that being the only mitigation, figure about half recharge on these attacks for slotting/bonuses example, against each sets best mitigation (which obviously most sets have more than one, where savage melee, this is it's only one:

 

Savage Melee:

Vicious slash: 60s/6.17s x .67 chance = 6.52 kd's per minute

 

Axe:

Swoop: 60/7.23 x .7 chance = 5.81 kd's per minute

Gash = 4.78KDPM

Chop = 5.77KDPM = Total between these 3 16.36KDPM (obv true amount is better as for fluid chain you'll fit in cleave/beheader which also have chances)

 

Bs:

Disembowel = 6.62KDPM

Headsplitter = 3.86 + 6.62 = 10.48KDPM (also not accounting for the massive defense boost of parry to help for mitigation as well)

 

Claws:

Focus: 13.73KDPM

Shockwave: 8.51KDPM Even just using focus it's vastly superior, but can use shockwave in a single target too given the lower end costs, but it's not needed to blow savage out of the water. Shockwave is also one of the best aoe mitigations too which can't be discounted.

 

Dual Blades: Arguably the weirdest to counter, mostly because vengeful slice has a HORRIBLY long animation time, which NEEDS reduced to about 1.43s which would mean instead of the 4 hits, it would just be the last two, which would be terribly easy to fix the animation to do just that (not coding wise not sure on that, just mean how it would look)

1k cuts: 5.56KDPM

Current Vengeful Slice: 9.33KDPM

Fixed Vengeful Slice: 11.05KDPM

Still superior (vastly if they'd fix vengeful slice which they really should) But even current vengeful slice is still much more superior, it's just hard to count with this set cause it's such a horrible attack you won't use it. 1k cuts, can be used against a single target if you need the mitigation, but often won't, but then if you don't, it's not needed anyway. But as a set, it's a big wide cone that offers MUCH more mitigation than simply vicious slash alone.

 

Dark Melee: Has no knockdown to make this an easy comparison. It does have the -to hit which is easy to stack 22.52% on a single target using just the damaging attacks alone, 33.77 if you use touch of fear as well. Plus the self heal offers extra "mitigation" via healing in way too. Plus once you're at 50, midnight grasp gets an extra really big hold proc from gravitational anchor (which stacks very often with the winter hold proc too to hold bosses, or pretty much guarantee anything under a boss will be held by it). All this together, against a single target the set pulls vastly far ahead of savage melee against a single target.

 

Elec Melee: Another hard set to compare given an alternative mechanic. About the only set that savage pulls ahead of it against a single target unless you manage to drain that target.

However, the set as a whole provides SOOOO much more mitigation than savage melee against a mob it's laughable. If needed against a single target, you could still rely on thunderstrike for 3.9 KDPM against a single target. And 3.7KDPM from Lightning Clap if your end can handle it. The set also can slot the power transfer heal procs in the attacks, and the call of the sandman 15% heal proc into Havoc Punch or Jacob's ladder for even more "healing" which gives the set better survival chances as well.

 

Energy Melee: While it has no knockdowns, it has so much stun that a single target will be pretty much perma stunned, making it one of the best single target mitigation sets, aoe-wise, it does offer some aoe stun, but it's not a ton, but is more than savage melee offers.

 

Fire Melee:

Cremate: 10.91KDPM

The set also offers just plain much more damage to a single target as well. However, TERRIBLY stupidly, I'd still prefer savage on the aoe aspect just because fire melee is really bad on aoe. FSC just doesn't cut it. It amazes and INFURIATES me, that they didn't swap breath of fire for combustion, for another aoe attack that should make fire melee stand out better, cause FSC alone is just horrid, and why i've done 3 fire melee scrappers now that all get shelved because the aoe is so terrible. They really do still need to fix that and swap BoF for combustion.

But mitigation wise and damage wise, fire melee beats savage out tenfold.

 

Ice Melee: Another somewhat hard tone to compare directly, but obviously it has much more mitigation than savage melee does between perma ice patch, freezing touch, and and -recharge. Another set that vastly needs a couple powers fixed though to fix it's terrible single target damage. (FF should be the .83s cast one punch like charged brawl, and GiS should be swapped back to the Ice Slash 1.83s cast time that it was before, the damage values of each attack are still on the lower end so it wouldn't be winning any contests, but it would help make it not so terribly horrid on the ST front)\

 

Katana:

Soaring Dragon: 7.72KDPM

Golden Dragonfly: 4.6KDPM + 7.72 = 12.32KDPM, plus obviously the massive defense boost of divine avalanche if you get that, but not needed in this comparison.

 

Kinetic Melee:

Quick Strike: 6.44

Focused Burst: 5 + 6.44 = 11.44 KDPM, the set also offers -damage, and a good bit of single target stun for more mitigation. It also offers a lot more aoe mitigation on a mob as well.

 

Martial Arts:

Crane Kick: 5.4 KDPM

As a direct comparison it's a bit less, though this, soaring dragon, swoop, disembowel etc, you have to also factor in the longer mitigation of knockup/knockback if you don't put a KB-KD in them as well. MA also has several stuns against a single target for mitigation, aoe knockdown with dragon's tail (which still needs moved up to at least tier 6 IMO), slottable grav anchor hold proc in CaK, and for tank/brutes (which REALLY needs added to scrap/stalkers too!) they get a defense bonus to storm kick as well.

 

Psionic Melee:

Telekinetic Blow: 6.03KDPM

So close on that alone, but the set also does -recharge, A mag 3 hold  in greater psy blade, and stackable boggle. Aoe-wise, also has a really hefty aoe knockup attack for mitigation.

(also needs its lockout removed)

 

Rad Melee:

Radioactive Smash: 3.96KDPM. So less on pure knockdown mitigation, but the set also has a strong self heal when used right, and some single target stuns. It has some stun in the aoe, but it's fairly poor so wouldn't count that much.

 

Stone Melee:

Stone Mallet: 5.35

Heavy Mallet: 5.9KDPM + 5.35 = 11.25KDPM Much more. The set also has some stun/hold to a single target (more if you proc Seismic Smash), but the set also VASTLY outpaces savage melee in mitigation between tremor and fault, though obviously savage wins out in aoe damage, stone beats it in single target as well. (esp if using procs)

 

Spines: Another set that's hard to compare directly. Obviously doing well at aoe damage, the single target really needs to have Impale fixed to the 1.43s cast time that dominators have.

Mitigation wise, it does have some -recharge, and then main direct mitigation via:

Ripper: 4.69KDPM

Where it's less to a single target, it also hits a decent cone's worth of that knockdown so overall is much more mitigation.

 

Staff:

Serpent's Reach: 7.66KDPM

Sky Splitter: 10.81KDPM + 7.66 = 18.47KDPM

Vastly superior on straight ST knockdown mitigation, but the set also has a defense bonus skill, and the massive benefits of the sky splitter buffs with main focus on the 83% recovery (much better than savage's end reduction on average even with the lockout being removed, comparable perhaps if you had a perma 5 stacks of blood which currently is only current unfixed hemorrhage version of savage melee, not assault) and 125%regen, or the 9.98%-13% global resistance it offers as well. The set also offers lots of aoe, but aoe knockdown as well.

 

Street Justice:

Heavy Blow: 5.04

Crushing Uppercut: 4.09KDPM + 5.04 = 9.13KDPM

This set also offers aoe knockdown for more mitigation, but it's a somewhat tough comparison as a whole for how terrible the radius is on spinning strike. Another set where at least this one power REALLY needs fixed, if nothing else to have a wider radius, but the power doesn't even make sense as a taoe attack. Even the animation is spinning around your own body, and the power should most definitely be a Pbaoe like dragon's tail, not a Taoe like touch of fear. (both powers regardless really need even that one more foot like thunderstrike has, Its crazy noticeable how much more hindered they are at a 6ft radius versus 7, but for a melee set, they really should be 10ft for a melee taoe radius.)

 

Titan Weapons:

Follow Through: 9.84KDPM Vastly better, though it also has the odd mechanic of not being able to use out of momentum, even with that though, the KDPM would still be much higher for how often you have to just use crushing blow before it.

The set also has titan sweep which is usable against a single target for knockdown, and defensive sweep for a defense boost power. Overall the set also has MUCH more aoe knockdown for vastly better mitigation as well.

 

War Mace:

Jawbreaker: 6.59 which is about even, but the knockup provides longer mitigation than a knockdown so it's better than that.

The set also has clobber to stun a target, though it's not really perma-able to much sadly, but it does help starting out on non-bosses. The set as a whole again also has much more mitigation between shatter and crowd control, much better single target damage, and still really good aoe damage as well.

 

As you can see, almost no set has less mitigation than savage melee does. Most have better single target damage at the very least if procs are thrown into the mix given savage's shorter cast and recharge times. The only place savage beats about half of the sets is aoe damage thanks mostly to savage leap, but as mentioned at the vast cost of mitigation, though it's also the most resisted damage type as well. Which is why those blood stacks are SO important to not have the lockout. They're needed to help balance the set as a bonus niche. Otherwise the set is about average to a little better on aoe (which this gets cut WAY down in the current form, as the lockout means you may not want to use rending flurry which will greatly lower your aoe damage), on the lower end of single target damage, and almost no mitigation by comparison. This set NEEDS the lockout removed.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

wall of text crits for over 9000