Sentinel Fire Blast-Inferno (+Full auto)

[Gobbledigook]

Inferno could do with a few more ticks of damage (80% chance of 3 ticks) adding to it.

Blasters/Def/Corr get 99% chance of 9 ticks of added burn damage. Even the defender burn damage is higher than the Sentinel burn damage and it ticks 9 times with 99% guarantee as well as hitting 6 more targets.

 

The other Sentinel T9 nukes get secondary effects like CC and debuffs etc but Inferno is damage only. It is not much more damage than the other T9s which have additional secondary effects.

 

Overcharge for example does more damage and is 40ft range, safer to use, with a defense debuff and a stun attached and is slightly faster activation.

 

A few more ticks of the burn damage would be good or make it 100% chance at least. Even add a secondary effect maybe.

 

Sentinel Full auto could do with a little something extra also.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[Rudra]

Are you willing to give up the faster recharge time that Sentinels get for their Inferno for the added damage?

 

Sentinel Inferno does 213.85457 damage against all targets within 10 feet and 157.08767 damage to all targets out to 20 feet every 93.168 seconds including cast time, arcana time, and recharge. (2.295 damage per second before any recharge reductions or damage enhancements.)

 

Defender Inferno does 232.4228 damage to all targets within 25 feet every 148.168 seconds including cast time, arcana time, and recharge. (1.569 damage per second before any recharge reductions or damage enhancements.)

 

Blaster Inferno does 402.27085 damage to all targets within 25 feet every 148.168 seconds including cast time, arcana time, and recharge. (2.715 damage per second before any recharge reductions or damage enhancements.)

Edited September 15, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to remove edit. Sentinel's Inferno has a 100% chance of an 80% chance of tic damage per COD. Weird. Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders have a 100% chance of a 99% chance of their tics. Also weird.

[Gobbledigook]

15 hours ago, Rudra said:

Are you willing to give up the faster recharge time that Sentinels get for their Inferno for the added damage?

 

Sentinel Inferno does 213.85457 damage against all targets within 10 feet and 157.08767 damage to all targets out to 20 feet every 93.168 seconds including cast time, arcana time, and recharge. (2.295 damage per second before any recharge reductions or damage enhancements.)

 

Defender Inferno does 232.4228 damage to all targets within 25 feet every 148.168 seconds including cast time, arcana time, and recharge. (1.569 damage per second before any recharge reductions or damage enhancements.)

 

Blaster Inferno does 402.27085 damage to all targets within 25 feet every 148.168 seconds including cast time, arcana time, and recharge. (2.715 damage per second before any recharge reductions or damage enhancements.)

I am comparing it to other Sentinel T9s and not other AT's. I used them as an example of how many dot ticks they get compared to Sentinel version. Inferno for sentinels should get a few more ticks compared to other T9's they have that bring secondary effects.

 

Sentinels got a faster recharge in place of higher damage and 16 targets. That is for all Sentinel T9s. I am concerned with the Sentinel T9s that do only damage and have no secondary effect.

 

Compare Overcharge to Inferno for example.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[Captain Fabulous]

/powercreep

[arcane]

17 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

/powercreep

Most butthurt poster of 2023 for sure

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Gobbledigook said:

I am comparing it to other Sentinel T9s and not other AT's. I used them as an example of how many dot ticks they get compared to Sentinel version. Inferno for sentinels should get a few more ticks compared to other T9's they have that bring secondary effects.

 

Sentinels got a faster recharge in place of higher damage and 16 targets. That is for all Sentinel T9s. I am concerned with the Sentinel T9s that do only damage and have no secondary effect.

 

Compare Overcharge to Inferno for example.

 

 

Overcharge? For Sentinels? You mean the power that does 213.54861 damage every 93.036 seconds compared to 213.33492 damage every 128.036 seconds on a Blaster? That Overcharge? The one that looks like it needs to be reigned in to me?

 

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I agree the DoT on Inferno for Sentinels should have the same proc chance as Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders. I just think your comparison is off-base.

 

Edit again: Even the chance to stun, the Mag of Stun, the duration of Stun, the range of the power, and the accuracy of the power is the same between the two Overcharges. Sentinels just lose 5 feet radius and 6 targets cap. For better damage than Blasters at a faster recharge.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Rudra

[Gobbledigook]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Overcharge? For Sentinels? You mean the power that does 213.54861 damage every 93.036 seconds compared to 213.33492 damage every 128.036 seconds on a Blaster? That Overcharge? The one that looks like it needs to be reigned in to me?

 

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I agree the DoT on Inferno for Sentinels should have the same proc chance as Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders. I just think your comparison is off-base.

 

Edit again: Even the chance to stun, the Mag of Stun, the duration of Stun, the range of the power, and the accuracy of the power is the same between the two Overcharges. Sentinels just lose 5 feet radius and 6 targets cap. For better damage than Blasters at a faster recharge.

I am not sure where you are getting your figures but in game it shows different figures and Sentinel Overcharge 219.05 damage compared to Inferno's 212.5 damage.

Overcharge is fully ranged and stuns and defense debuffs. Inferno does nothing but damage.

Blaster Inferno does 410.94 damage but that is irrelevant to Sentinel T9 to Sentinel T9.

Blaster overcharge does 218.97 damage also irrelevant, although Blaster Inferno vs Overcharge is a big increase in damage for Inferno yet Sentinel Inferno vs Sentinel Overcharge is worse.

 

A few extra dots to Sentinel Inferno would be good.or at least 99% chance.

 

You are miss reading the posts. I am not comparing Sentinels to Blasters or Defenders or Corruptors just other Sentinel T9's. I have stated that to you earlier. "I am comparing it to other Sentinel T9s and not other AT's".

Edited September 15, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[Gobbledigook]

This post is not about other AT's but is only a Sentinel Vs Sentinel T9 comparison. Inferno and FA are damage only yet they are not even the best at it, with others doing more damage and adding secondary effects.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[Wavicle]

What is being missed in this discussion is that OTHER than the 90 second cooldown, Sentinel Nukes (and Nukes in general) are not balanced against each other in the way being presupposed here. They are balanced, like all powers, within the context of the sets they come in.

That doesn't necessarily mean there shouldn't be a tweak here or there, but comparing them directly in absence of other information about the set they come in doesn't give a good picture of why they are the way they are.

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

I am not sure where you are getting your figures but in game it shows different figures and Sentinel Overcharge 219.05 damage compared to Inferno's 212.5 damage.

Overcharge is fully ranged and stuns and defense debuffs. Inferno does nothing but damage.

Blaster Inferno does 410.94 damage but that is irrelevant to Sentinel T9 to Sentinel T9.

Blaster overcharge does 218.97 damage also irrelevant, although Blaster Inferno vs Overcharge is a big increase in damage for Inferno yet Sentinel Inferno vs Sentinel Overcharge is worse.

 

You are miss reading the posts. I am not comparing Sentinels to Blasters or Defenders or Corruptors just other Sentinel T9's. I have stated that to you earlier. "I am comparing it to other Sentinel T9s and not other AT's".

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_ranged.beam_rifle.overcharge&at=sentinel

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=blaster_ranged.beam_rifle.overcharge&at=blaster

 

All my data is from City of Data. https://cod.uberguy.net/

 

4 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

This post is not about other AT's but is only a Sentinel Vs Sentinel T9 comparison. Inferno and FA are damage only yet they are not even the best at it, with others doing more damage and adding secondary effects.

 

And I fully understand that you are only looking Sentinel T9s. However, if Sentinels have a T9 that is outperforming Blasters, then the Sentinel T9 is in need of being nerfed. And it is that power you are using to say that Sentinel Inferno needs to be buffed.

[Gobbledigook]

Just now, Wavicle said:

What is being missed in this discussion is that OTHER than the 90 second cooldown, Sentinel Nukes (and Nukes in general) are not balanced against each other in the way being presupposed here. They are balanced, like all powers, within the context of the sets they come in.

That doesn't necessarily mean there shouldn't be a tweak here or there, but comparing them directly in absence of other information about the set they come in doesn't give a good picture of why they are the way they are.

Yes that could be the case. It just seems only 3 dots with 80% chance is a little low.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

However, if Sentinels have a T9 that is outperforming Blasters, then the Sentinel T9 is in need of being nerfed.

 

Don't forget that Blasters, between their inherent and their secondaries, have FAR greater access to Damage Buffs than Sentinels do. Your comparison ignores this, and I think it's likely at least part of why the two powers compare the way they do.

[Gobbledigook]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_ranged.beam_rifle.overcharge&at=sentinel

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=blaster_ranged.beam_rifle.overcharge&at=blaster

 

All my data is from City of Data. https://cod.uberguy.net/

 

 

And I fully understand that you are only looking Sentinel T9s. However, if Sentinels have a T9 that is outperforming Blasters, then the Sentinel T9 is in need of being nerfed. And it is that power you are using to say that Sentinel Inferno needs to be buffed.

I rather check in game for accurate figures.

 

Sentinel Inferno of 212.5 ddamage vs Blasters 410.94 hitting 16 targets does not out perform. Overcharge Blaster vs Sentinel i don't know...maybe. Maybe Blaster Inferno needs a nerf. "shrug".

Edited September 15, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[Wavicle]

The ingame numbers for Overcharge are confusing. If they are correct, then maybe there's something off. Maybe.

 

Again, you have to consider the whole set, and the AT. Beam Rifle Sentinel single target damage isn't so good (ignoring procs), Fire is pretty decent.

 

But maybe something is off with Overcharge. Brighter minds than mine will have to figure it out.

[Rudra]

218.98 damage for a Blaster using the in game numbers, as opposed to 219.07 damage for a Sentinel. I am of the opinion that Sentinel Overcharge is in need of being nerfed, so I believe it is a poor comparison for Sentinel Inferno.

 

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

Don't forget that Blasters, between their inherent and their secondaries, have FAR greater access to Damage Buffs than Sentinels do. Your comparison ignores this, and I think it's likely at least part of why the two powers compare the way they do.

You're correct that I am not factoring the Blaster inherent. (I was unaware it also boosted damage.) However, I am disinclined to factor secondaries. Sure, Blasters get manipulation sets for their secondaries which includes melee attacks, crowd control, and even debuffs/buffs; but Sentinels get armors which include buffs/debuffs and makes them far harder to kill.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You're correct that I am not factoring the Blaster inherent. (I was unaware it also boosted damage.) However, I am disinclined to factor secondaries. Sure, Blasters get manipulation sets for their secondaries which includes melee attacks, crowd control, and even debuffs/buffs; but Sentinels get armors which include buffs/debuffs and makes them far harder to kill.

The point is that almost every Blaster secondary has a strong Damage buff, and these numbers are also higher for Blasters. And yes, Defiance gives a significant stacking damage buff almost all the time. We aren’t debating the merits of Sentinel vs Blaster, simply evaluating why a power might be implemented differently for the two.

 

However, I’m also not completely sure those 218 and 219 numbers are accurate, but I don’t have toons to test with.

[FupDup]

Overcharge on Sents doesn't seem very out of line to me because it has identical damage stats as Thunderous Blast and most other Sent nukes. Sent nukes are really easy to compare for outliers since they all have the same recharge (other ATs are harder because many of their nukes trade recharge for upfront damage). 

 

Some examples:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_ranged.beam_rifle.overcharge&at=sentinel

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_ranged.electrical_blast.thunderous_blast&at=sentinel

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_ranged.radiation_blast.atomic_blast&at=sentinel

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_ranged.sonic_attack.dreadful_wail&at=sentinel

 

If anything, I think this makes it look like the non-Sent version of Overcharge is undertuned rather than Sents being too strong. If we nerfed Sent Overcharge for the sake of Blasters' feelings, then it would be the shittier compared to other Sent nukes. And there's no way we're going to nerf every other Sentinel nuke down to the same level of whatever Overcharge would get smacked down to. 

 

And I don't think Sents need to be pooped on any more than they are already. Like seriously join the early daily Hamidon raid and there's almost always several people shitting on the AT as if they're griefing their own team worse than a petless Mastermind. Discord has a fair bit of it too. Let Sents have a W for once. Just this once. As a treat. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by FupDup

[Wavicle]

I couldn't say for sure, but it occurs to me the Disintegrate mechanic might also have something to do with this. Targets with Disintegration are dealt more damage by Overcharge than is shown, and Blasters may have easier access to spreading Disintegrate to many targets.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, FupDup said:

Overcharge on Sents doesn't seem very out of line to me because it has identical damage stats as Thunderous Blast and most other Sent nukes. Sent nukes are really easy to compare for outliers since they all have the same recharge (other ATs are harder because many of their nukes trade recharge for upfront damage). 

 

Some examples:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_ranged.beam_rifle.overcharge&at=sentinel

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_ranged.electrical_blast.thunderous_blast&at=sentinel

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_ranged.radiation_blast.atomic_blast&at=sentinel

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_ranged.sonic_attack.dreadful_wail&at=sentinel

 

If anything, I think this makes it look like the non-Sent version of Overcharge is undertuned rather than Sents being too strong. If we nerfed Sent Overcharge for the sake of Blasters' feelings, then it would be the shittier compared to other Sent nukes. And there's no way we're going to nerf every other Sentinel nuke down to the same level of whatever Overcharge would get smacked down to. 

 

And I don't think Sents need to be pooped on any more than they are already. Like seriously join the early daily Hamidon raid and there's almost always several people shitting on the AT as if they're griefing their own team worse than a petless Mastermind. Discord has a fair bit of it too. Let Sents have a W for once. Just this once. As a treat. 

I may be doing the numbers wrong (that is a lot of numbers I'm seeing on Thunderous Blast that aren't marked critter or player), but here goes.

 

Thunderous Blast:

Blaster: 480.0495 every 173.168 seconds

Sentinel: 346.9721 every 93.168 seconds

 

Atomic Blast:

Blaster: 250.246 every 148.168 seconds

Sentinel: 194.5856 every 93.168 seconds

 

Dreadful Wail:

Blaster: 250.246 every 147.112 seconds

Sentinel: 194.5856 every 92.112 seconds

 

Overcharge:

Blaster: 213.33492 every 128.036 seconds

Sentinel: 213.54861 every 93.036 seconds

 

Overcharge is a definite outlier.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Rudra said:

Overcharge:

Blaster: 213.33492 every 128.036 seconds

Sentinel: 213.54861 every 93.036 seconds

 

Overcharge is a definite outlier.

 

I think someone needs to verify these numbers by using the actual powers, not just looking at the info.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Overcharge:

Blaster: 213.33492 every 128.036 seconds

Sentinel: 213.54861 every 93.036 seconds

 

Overcharge is a definite outlier.

 

I think someone needs to verify these numbers by using the actual powers, not just looking at the info.

In game test data works for me. I'm betting it comes up similar since the game data, CoD, and Mids all say Overcharge is more powerful on a Sentinel than a Blaster though.

[Wavicle]

Then the next step would be to compare what else the set gets on each AT and see how they stack up, paying close attention to Disintegration.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Wavicle

[FupDup]

25 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I may be doing the numbers wrong (that is a lot of numbers I'm seeing on Thunderous Blast that aren't marked critter or player), but here goes.

 

Thunderous Blast:

Blaster: 480.0495 every 173.168 seconds

Sentinel: 346.9721 every 93.168 seconds

 

Atomic Blast:

Blaster: 250.246 every 148.168 seconds

Sentinel: 194.5856 every 93.168 seconds

 

Dreadful Wail:

Blaster: 250.246 every 147.112 seconds

Sentinel: 194.5856 every 92.112 seconds

 

Overcharge:

Blaster: 213.33492 every 128.036 seconds

Sentinel: 213.54861 every 93.036 seconds

 

Overcharge is a definite outlier.

I was comparing Sent vs. Sent. The Blaster ones don't have a consistent baseline because they have varying recharges. The Sent ones are mostly uniform so if there was an outlier it would stick out pretty hard. 

 

Overcharge:
56.7669 energy (inner radius)

137.8187 energy (outer radius)

 

Thunderous Blast: 

56.7669 smashing (inner)
137.8187 energy (outer)

 

Atomic Blast:

56.7669 smashing (inner)
137.8187 energy (outer)

 

Dreadful Wail:

56.7669 smashing (inner)
137.8187 energy (outer)

 

Blackstar:

56.7669 negative (inner)
137.8187 negative (outer)

 

Nova:

56.7669 energy (inner)

137.8187 energy (outer)

 

Meteor:

56.7669 fire (inner)

137.8187 smashing (outer)

 

Psychic Wail:

56.7669 psi (inner)

137.8187 psi (outer)

 

Inferno:

56.7669 fire (inner)

137.8187 fire (outer)

 

I stuck with the "single shot" nukes because those are easier to deal with than DOT stuff like Rain of Arrows, Full Auto, or Category 5. This covers almost all of them anyways so it should be enough to form a comparison. 

 

All of them share the same recharge. I don't see any outliers among these, at least not in terms of raw damage or recharge (secondary effects can be debated as to which might be better, animation times, other little nuances). If we're going to go with the conclusion of Sent Overcharge being OP, that means we would have to nerf EVERY other Sent nuke because most of them do the same damage with the same recharge. How is Overcharge too strong compared to other Sentinel nukes?

 

And there's also the point that Blasters have a 16 target cap vs. Sentinel's 10, plus defiance, uniform nuke damage instead of inner radius stuff, larger AOE radius (Sentinel nukes are mostly 20ft, Blasters and others are 25ft) more damage granted from Aim, higher damage cap, longer range, Build Up in most secondaries, being actually appreciated by their teammates and the general playerbase...I think the Blasters will be fine. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by FupDup

[Wavicle]

Yea, the question, IF these numbers are accurate, should be why is Blaster Overcharge so weak (not a claim I've seen anyone make)?

Edited September 15, 2023 by Wavicle