The Subtle Arts - TW/Nin

[jack_nomind]

The subtle art of NGAF is one that must be forgotten in order to be taught.

 

All positions softcapped, 175% ghaste.

 

Now some of you may be asking, "Do you really need to six-slot Blinding Powder with purples?"

 

And to those I answer, "Of course I do.  Have you seen that set?  It's nuts."

 

(Edit 3.7.19: Updated post to reflect the comments and testing of the thread. Here's the original version, done in Pines 1.962.  Please see the comments for discussion of how to make a higher-damage version that loses the Stealth pool.)

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 2.22

http://www.cohplanner.com/

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

The Subtle Art of NGAF: Level 50 Natural Scrapper

Primary Power Set: Titan Weapons

Secondary Power Set: Ninjitsu

Power Pool: Fighting

Power Pool: Concealment

Power Pool: Speed

Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

 

Hero Profile:

Level 1: Crushing Blow -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(A), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(3), CrsImp-Dmg/Rchg(3), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), AchHee-ResDeb%(7)

Level 1: Ninja Reflexes -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(7), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(9), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(9), Ksm-ToHit+(11)

Level 2: Danger Sense -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(11), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(13), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(13)

Level 4: Titan Sweep -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(21), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(23), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25)

Level 6: Shinobi-Iri -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(25), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(27)

Level 8: Follow Through -- SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrStr-Dmg/Rchg(27), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SprScrStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprScrStr-Rchg/+Crit(31)

Level 10: Kuji-In Rin -- RechRdx-I(A)

Level 12: Kick -- Empty(A)

Level 14: Tough -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(31), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33), TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(33)

Level 16: Seishinteki Kyoyo -- EffAdp-EndMod/Rchg(A), EffAdp-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(33)

Level 18: Rend Armor -- SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprCrtStr-Dmg/Rchg(34), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), SprCrtStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), SprCrtStr-Rchg/+50% Crit(36)

Level 20: Kuji-In Sha -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-Heal(36), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(37), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(37), Prv-Heal/Rchg(37), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(39)

Level 22: Weave -- Rct-ResDam%(A), Rct-Def(39), Rct-Def/EndRdx(39), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(40), Rct-Def/Rchg(40), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40)

Level 24: Grant Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A)

Level 26: Whirling Smash -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(42), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(42), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)

Level 28: Bo Ryaku -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(43), UnbGrd-Max HP%(43), UnbGrd-ResDam(45)

Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45)

Level 32: Arc of Destruction -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-%Dam(45), Obl-Acc/Rchg(46), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(46), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)

Level 35: Build Momentum -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(48), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(48), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(50), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(50), GssSynFr--Build%(50)

Level 38: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)

Level 41: Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A)

Level 44: Misdirection -- RechRdx-I(A)

Level 47: Blinding Powder -- Prp-Acc/Rchg(A)

Level 49: Physical Perfection -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A)

Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Critical Hit

Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)

Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)

Level 4: Ninja Run

Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)

Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), NmnCnv-Heal(15), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(15), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(17), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(17), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(19)

Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)

Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(19), PrfShf-EndMod/Acc(21)

Level 1: Momentum

Level 50: Agility Radial Paragon

------------

[oldskool]

This checks a lot of anime boxes...

 

Ninjutsu arts? Check

 

Impractically large weapon? Check

 

Cat girl costume....?  Cheeeeck?

 

All kidding aside, that build idea looks awesome and fun!

[jack_nomind]

Hahah, thanks.  I originally set out to make a TW/SR, which I think makes a very solid combo, but then I found out that Ninja has a button you click that just... gives you back half your endurance every fifteen seconds.  And that's hard to pass up.

[honoraryorange]

Nice build! I was actually looking at TW/SR, but this seems more interesting. Does Nin have the same defense debuff resistance SR has? What's the misdirection for? Is it worth using as part of your rotation before a big hitter? Or is it more of just an oh crap button?

[jack_nomind]

Does Nin have the same defense debuff resistance SR has?

 

No, it's much lower, about in line with other Def sets. 

What's the misdirection for? Is it worth using as part of your rotation before a big hitter? Or is it more of just an oh crap button?

 

I needed another +Def power and for theme consistency went with Stealth over Manuevers.  I ended up with some free picks and Misdirection seemed like one of the most interesting choices... I think in practice it actually might improve dps even ST if used after every second cycle.

[Murcielago]

*cries in INF*

 

[honoraryorange]

You can't have Stealth and Shinobi-Iri active, even though Pine lets you.

 

Given that, would you shift the 2 slots from Stealth to Shinobi-Iri in order to up defense slightly and just leave LotG Recharge in Stealth?

 

Also since you can't stack the two stealths, would you swap Grant Invis for actual Invis?

[GritIron]

Celerity Stealth IO will make this ability Invisibility without the need for taking any of the Concealment Powers.  I know this from my experience with my Kat/Nin Scrapper. :)

[jack_nomind]

You can't have Stealth and Shinobi-Iri active, even though Pine lets you.

 

Ick.  Always the problem with theorycrafting.  But hey, problems are just opportunities in disguise -- dropping Stealth gives us a better build.

 

Concealment was always an idiosyncratic choice.  I'd keep the pool and do Grant Invis -> Invis -> Misdirection.  (However, a potentially better choice is to go Leadership here; the build can still function with one fewer LotG unique, or you can put Vengeance in the third pick and keep it.)

 

But I'd keep Concealment, so I'd move one of the Stealth slots to Arc of Destruction to finish out Obliteration, gunning us back up to 48% melee and dropping our end consumption.  I'm a sustain junkie, so I'd probably put the other one into Health for a third Numina's to gain a net hp/s improvement on the lost LotG set bonus... or for others, there's a pretty good argument to be made for finishing out one of the other 5/6th Obliterations in Whirling Smash or Titan Sweep, given /Nin's pretty low DDR.

 

Edit: The third option would be to put the slot into Sprint and two-slot Celerity for 2.25% S/L resist and the Stealth proc.  That's a bit attractive to me but it does make me want to see how much I'd have to trade to hit >68% S/L res.  Getting to 65% isn't too tough... hmm.

[honoraryorange]

Definitely some good ideas!

 

I decided to toy with this yesterday, so I did a quick 1-50 and kitted it out, I'll play around a bit more tonight.

 

I like the idea of the stealth proc, too, since I think it stacks with Nins stealth for proper invis? I haven't played around with it much yet though so I'm not entirely sure.

 

Finishing out Obliteration is really smart, imo, that extra melee defense will get it closer to the cap given all the missing defense from not being able to run Stealth.

 

Obliteration 6 slotted plus 2 slotted Maneuvers seems to bring things to 47% across the board, not bad at all.

[jack_nomind]

Obliteration 6 slotted plus 2 slotted Maneuvers seems to bring things to 47% across the board, not bad at all.

 

Hmm.  With everything active, it should be 48/47/47 w/o Manuevers.  Is this pre-Alpha Slot?

[honoraryorange]

Yeah that was pre-Alpha. If I add in Alpha but turn off Maneuvers, I see 47.4/46.4/46.4, which is pretty darn close.

[honoraryorange]

I've been playing around a bit...

 

I'm assuming Combat Jumping can work with Shinobi-Iri? Not positive though. Pine says so, but we know how well Pine has worked for that so far :) But if we dump all of the Concealment pool that frees up a chunk of powers, too.

 

Removed that, added in CJ, Maneuvers (purely for recharge IO), and Superspeed (because why not? Although this could be something else, too).

 

CJ toggled on (2 slotted, Global Recharge+Defense) and with Maneuvers toggled off... puts this to 47.4/46.6/46.6 without incarnates, 50.4/49.4/49.4 with Agility Total Radial Revamp. As you mentioned, it isn't bad to be a bit over cap given the mostly lack of Defense Debuff Resist. It also has 57% S/L resist which isn't terrible.

 

I think it leaves some flexibility with Superspeed, could be used for most anything else. But I assume Superspeed+Shinobi-Iri also provides real invis, which isn't bad to have either.

 

 

[jack_nomind]

I've been playing around a bit...

 

I'm assuming Combat Jumping can work with Shinobi-Iri? Not positive though. Pine says so, but we know how well Pine has worked for that so far :) But if we dump all of the Concealment pool that frees up a chunk of powers, too.

 

Pines allows it, but the power description of Shinobi-Iri (including the version in Pines) explicitly mentions that it doesn't work with CJ or Super Speed.

[honoraryorange]

I've been playing around a bit...

 

I'm assuming Combat Jumping can work with Shinobi-Iri? Not positive though. Pine says so, but we know how well Pine has worked for that so far :) But if we dump all of the Concealment pool that frees up a chunk of powers, too.

 

Pines allows it, but the power description of Shinobi-Iri (including the version in Pines) explicitly mentions that it doesn't work with CJ or Super Speed.

 

Hmm it says it can't be used at the same time as other stealth powers. But nothing about CJ/SS.  At least in-game... Pines says differently. WTF!

 

EDIT: Confirmed, Shinobi-Iri, CJ, and SS all stack! Woot! Currently sitting at 47%/46.3/46.3% with no Incarnates. End Drain of less than 1.0%/sec with all toggles on (Except SS).

 

For now I also ended up going with Concealment/Grant Invis for my final power to dump a LotG Recharge into. Figure there might be a little utility there to invis a team while I use my own SS+Shinobi-Iri for invis.

[jack_nomind]

Just tested on Justin with Sprint, Walk, Ninja Run, Slide, CJ, SJ, SS, Stealth, and Invisibility.

 

Walk, Stealth, and Invisibility detoggled Shinobi-Iri; nothing else did.

[honoraryorange]

Nice! Looks like CJ is an easy way to kinda top off the defense then if people want to go that route. Right now I went with CJ/Grant Invis/SS to replace a few of those, and it's working good. Soft capped with no incarnates yet (hoping to get my T3 agility tonight though).

 

Nice build! But WOW does it chew through endurance. Gotta remind myself to pop that End button between momentum cycles.

[jack_nomind]

What having CJ available really means is that you can run this build with Musculature instead of Agility, although you'll need to factor in Ageless to make up the lost +rech.

[honoraryorange]

Not a bad point, and it'll help with Endurance, too.

 

Muscular Radial might not be a bad idea either, because then you get a bit more Endurance at minimal damage cost?

[GritIron]

This build fascinates me....

[honoraryorange]

So far I'm loving it, but I haven't done anything super duper demanding that has like defense debuffs and stuff. But for smashing content it is great and fast. The resists are lower than I'm used to for when those mobs get that shot through the defenses, but that giant self heal works great. Killing speed is very fast, TW is amazing.

 

It also exemplars very well, I've been working on Task Force Commander and my defenses are pretty much still capped at the lower levels, too, with attuned IOs and the slot setup. Even soloing Clamor at the end of Yin's TF was a snoozefest/bore (in a good way).

[Redlynne]

So I dual booted over to the Windoze side of my Mac today in order to take TW/Ninjitsu for a spin in Pine's 2.22 and get a sense for what's happening in here and ... wound up with something (starting from scratch) that makes me kind of sit back and wonder if there is a DOG.

 

 

 

Allow me to explain.

 

 

 

On my Ice/Ice Tanker build, one of the things that I am exceptionally keen on doing is frankenslotting Frost as a Melee Cone for Range so as to get its allowed reach up from 10 ft to around ~15 ft ... which doesn't sound like much, but it actually increases the AREA of space that Frost can attack/hold at risk by very nearly DOUBLE in size (in square foot terms).  That's because 1.4*1.4=1.96 ... so increase the Range on a Cone attack by +40% and you nearly double the area of (2D) ground you can hold at risk.

 

So what I do with Frost is something I like to call the "Hop 'n' Pop" with it ... where instead of just standing on the ground (like a Stone Tanker) with my feet nailed to the floor, instead I'll JUMP UP above the cluster of aggro I've gathered around myself (see: Tanker with Auras) so as to point the Cone of my Frost attack DOWNWARDS at everything clustered up (temporarily) under me, rather than pointing Frost off to one side of the pie and missing 75% of the $Targets around me.  So I'm not doing THIS ...

 

 

... instead I'm doing THIS ...

 

 

... and even just from this extremely simplistic representation of a (not even 90º wide) cone, you can see how the addition of the blue and purple layers at the bottom of the cone intersect a much larger/wider area on the ground than the green layer does.  Well, I worked out that with Hurdle (only, so no Combat Jumping, and slotted with a single common 50 Jump IO) your PC will jump straight up about 15 feet in height ... which just so happens to almost exactly match the "reach" of a Range extended Frost, so that I can quickly jump up ... point the Cone of the Frost attack DOWNWARDS into the dogpile of aggro I've got around me, click Frost when I'm at the top of my jump (you quickly develop a feel for the timing to do this) and successfully turn Frost from a Cone that misses most of what's around you into a Cone that hits pretty much everything around you as if it were a PBAoE (even though it's really a Cone).

 

Clever use of game mechanics (and positioning) and all that.

Ye ken hoo i'tis.

 

 

 

 

So I was looking at Titan Weapons, which I haven't played before, and noticed that for Scrappers the powerset has three 120º melee cones of 10 foot range.

But then when I went to go and start frankenslotting them for Range I found something I hadn't been expecting ... in Pine's at least you can't slot common Range enhancements into Titan Weapons(!).  This is at least consistent with legacy info found at City of Data for Titan Weapons, where Range enhancements were not permitted to be slotted into the Cone powers.

 

But then, that's never stopped me from wondering about these things before ...

 

 

 

 

So even though I shouldn't have been able to do it (ha ha) ... I was able to frankenslot my way to getting some Range enhancement slotting into the three melee Cones available to Titan Weapons, along with some +Defense set bonuses (definitely needed on the build I was working on) and even a proc IO in the 6th slot.

 

 

This brought the range (in Pine's) for these three Cone attacks up to 14-15 ft, just like I'm accustomed to with Frost in Ice Melee, but each of these attacks in Titan Weapons has a wider 120º Cone instead of a more limiting 90º Cone meaning increased opportunity to PUNISH fools who don't run away fast enough.

 

PUNISH.  PUNISH.  PUNISH ...

 

 

 

 

The problem with all of this, of course, is that it works great In Theory™ ... but I have no idea if it will work "properly" in the actual game engine itself.

Would anyone be willing to conduct a simple test of the proposition for us (and me) on Justin?

 

All you need to do is create a Titan Weapons Scrapper on Justin, insta-level to 50, and slot 3 Damage/Range Hami-O enhancements along with a couple Accuracy and an Endurance Reduction into each of the three Cone attacks (so as to keep the results from getting too skewed by missing and too tedious due to running out of blue bar).  After that, it's just a matter of determining if the Cone attacks get more "reach" with the (not meant to be allowed) Range enhancement slotted into the powers or not.

 

 

 

I figure the basic difference between Titan Weapons and Ice Melee on this point is that Titan Weapons is a melee WEAPON (meaning costume item) powerset, while Ice Melee does not have an associated melee weapon costume item (although Ice Sword and Greater Ice Sword will temporarily manifest weapon-ish looking items as part of the animation of those powers).  Frost, however doesn't manifest a weapon at all, so "allowing" the Range on the Cone of the attack to be enhanced doesn't wind up with a conceptual oddity of a "weapon" being able to reach farther (via taffy pull?) than usual, and in the process wind up looking ridiculous from an animation perspective.  At the very least, being able to verify this particular distinction would have value for the community, I'm thinking.

 

So ... any takers testers willing to help out a Mad Engineer known agent of KAOS take control of the world?