Mastermind growth

[Rudra]

53 minutes ago, EyesWideShut said:

Lets use HP as an example. I don't have access to my MM at the moment so I'll use City of Data -- Correct me if I'm wrong. Note that these numbers are placeholders yada yada and can be changed and yada yada not final numbers.

 

Boss Henchmen have 966.583 HP at level 51

LTs have 773.266 at 51

Minions have 579.95 at 51

 

In this case, we use our upgrade power that has +50% healing from whatever combination of IOs/set bonuses, etc just to make the calculations easier.

We split the the amount provided by our enhancements into uneven thirds -- 50% of value, 30% of value, 20% of value, giving us +25%, +15%, and +10% for minions, lts, and bosses respectively.

 

Minions go from 580 -> 725 (+145)

LTs go from 773 -> 889 (+116)

Bosses go from 997 -> 1097 (+100)

 

It presents a bit of an interesting choice here -- Do you slot Defense or Resistance? Do you slot for more HP or more damage? How many slots do you dedicate to your equip powers? How does your secondary affect your options? Those with say, Force Fields, may opt for +Res into their powers, while Thermal may opt for +Def. You got two equips, so do you double down on one aspect, or do you try to even out the attributes? How about slot allocation?

 

I think this would both present interesting opportunities, as your enhancement slotting would largely depend on what secondary you've chosen (and what the pets already provide themselves), while also boosting the power of MM pets in an interesting way to help keep up with higher powered threats.

 

Edit: I realize that this didn't answer your first question.

In order to make the coding behind this no more difficult than it needs to be, low level numbers could probably stay the same as high level ones. Enhancement bonuses are weaker at lower levels, and as such, while it'd still provide a boost, it shouldn't be overwhelmingly powerful -- And lower level MMs don't need extra help, as many have already noted in this thread that MMs are quite good levlers.

 

Edit2: To answer the incarnate question more clearly:
HP for level 53 minions:

Minion: 583.28

Lt: 777.707

Boss: 972.134

 

The HP gains from the level shifts are *measly*. I'm not worried too much about the potential of level shifts with this system.

Let me try this a different way. First, all MM pets (from their primaries) are lieutenants. MMs don't have minion (except in Gang War) or boss pets. The complaint some players have about MM pets is the negative levels they get when there are more than 1 of them. So the MM's T1 pets at level 50 are all level 48 lieutenants. The T2 pets at level 50 are both level 49 lieutenants. And the T3 is a level 50 lieutenant. So there is no minion or boss math for any of them.

 

Now when you get into an incarnate zone or an incarnate instance mission? That changes. A MM (like any other AT) can get up to 50+3. (They aren't level 53, they are level 50 with three incarnate shifts applied.) The MM pets undergo a change while in an incarnate zone or an incarnate instance map. They get enough level shifts to be equal to the MM's incarnate shifted level. So in this case, if you have a level 50+3 MM, the T1 pets are all level 48+5, the T2 pets are both level 49+4, and the T3 pet is level 50+3; all of them still lieutenants. (Edit: However, if those pets leave the MM's Supremacy radius of effect, they lose those level shifts, reverting to level 48, 49, or 50 as appropriate.)

 

So with that in mind, my questions are how would your proposal interact with the MM's pets from level 1 to level 50, and how would your proposal interact with the MM's pets while in an incarnate zone or incarnate instanced map?

Edited February 15 by Rudra

[EyesWideShut]

That is certainly news to me. I was under the impression that pets had their own attributes based their Class Name

Am I missing something here or?

[Rudra]

32 minutes ago, EyesWideShut said:

That is certainly news to me. I was under the impression that pets had their own attributes based their Class Name

Am I missing something here or?

Log on the game and check your pets. At level 50, those genin show as level 48, but are blue, -1 level to you. Those jounin are level 49, but con as white, so equal level to you. And that oni is level 50 but cons at yellow, so +1 to you. If the genin were minion class, then at level 48 they would be green to you. Those jounin would show as they already are. And that oni would con orange for being a boss of your level. When you are level 1 and you summon your lone genin? He is at your level, but cons yellow, because he is a lieutenant.

 

(Edit: Now, as for where they fit in your pet hierarchy? Yes, the T1s would be your minions, the T2s would be your lieutenants, and the T3 would be your boss pet, but they are all lieutenant strength pets in actuality. It's like how you sometimes get a combat NPC that says (s)he is a boss, but is actually only a lieutenant for their capabilities/HP.)

Edited February 15 by Rudra

[EyesWideShut]

Sorry this response took a bit. Short answer: It wouldn't do anything to interfere with it. Whether they should or not would depend on the math.

 

Levelshifts change combat level. Combat level determines, according to the wiki:

"A character's Combat Level determines their base health and the base strength of all their powers. It, along with the Combat Level of the character's enemies, affects their chances of hitting and getting hit."

Although I'm not quite certain it does on the HP part -- My brute had 2633 HP with or without her alpha slot.

 

The base strength of the powers modifies very, very little. In the case of going from 48 to 50 on my battle drones, the base damage change for Laser Burst is 37.65 (level 48) to 37.87 (level 50). We can assume the scaling is very similar from 50 to 53.

The biggest benefit that the minions get from the level shifting is the ability to hit their targets more often. With regards to the attack formula, players attacking critters of higher level suffer a larger accuracy penalty.

A 53 minion being attacked by a 49 player-minion (Level 48 + 1 for lieut) has a 39% BaseHitChance (player summon pets use player BaseHitChance, relative level +4).  Assuming no to-hit and no defense on the target

HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )

AccMods  =  the power's inherent Accuracy  ×  (1.0 + the power's Accuracy Enhancements + all global Set Accuracy bonuses)

 

Assume no enhancements in the pet. The 39% for BaseHitChance is then multiplied by the 1.67x accuracy of Laser burst for a total for about a 65~% chance to hit. If the minion was level shifted to 53, BaseHitChance becomes 75%, and the total accuracy is 125.25%, clamped to 95%.

 

 

If we assume a level 50 ACC IO into one of the equip powers, it's a 42.4% ACC increase. You don't hit diminishing returns here, so we'll go ahead and divide this up like we did HP: 50%, 30%, 20%. Since this is a minion, they'd receive 50% of the ACC bonus, or 21.2%. AccMods now becomes 1.67 * (1 + .212) or 2.0207.

If the minion is 49: 39% base chance becomes 78%; a 13% increase over the previous math; which is pretty good (although not as much as putting an enhancement into the power itself). If the minion is level shifted to 53, the the accuracy is 151%... clamped down to 95%. No change.

 

If we use thugs instead, who have a 1.1 on their pistol, you're looking around:

49 = 42.9

53 = 82.5

49 + enhanced = 51.9%

53 + enhanced = 95% (99.99% clamped down).

 

I really should have used thugs instead of bots for the math the first time around (My mastermind is bots, so I checked there first).

 

The biggest thing to note is that this is with 0 ACC slotted into the pet power themselves. A full 6 slot of Sovereign Right provides 97.49% ACC, moving the numbers to something like

49 = 83~

53 = clamped

49 + enhanced = clamped

53 + enhanced = clamped

 

So as noted at the start, it wouldn't change much on the accuracy front, which is the biggest change for the level shift.

Edited February 16 by EyesWideShut

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, EyesWideShut said:

Sorry this response took a bit. Short answer: It wouldn't do anything to interfere with it. Whether they should or not would depend on the math.

 

Levelshifts change combat level. Combat level determines, according to the wiki:

"A character's Combat Level determines their base health and the base strength of all their powers. It, along with the Combat Level of the character's enemies, affects their chances of hitting and getting hit."

Although I'm not quite certain it does on the HP part -- My brute had 2633 HP with or without her alpha slot.

 

The base strength of the powers modifies very, very little. In the case of going from 48 to 50 on my battle drones, the base damage change for Laser Burst is 37.65 (level 48) to 37.87 (level 50). We can assume the scaling is very similar from 50 to 53.

The biggest benefit that the minions get from the level shifting is the ability to hit their targets more often. With regards to the attack formula, players attacking critters of higher level suffer a larger accuracy penalty.

A 53 minion being attacked by a 49 player-minion (Level 48 + 1 for lieut) has a 39% BaseHitChance (player summon pets use player BaseHitChance, relative level +4).  Assuming no to-hit and no defense on the target

HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )

AccMods  =  the power's inherent Accuracy  ×  (1.0 + the power's Accuracy Enhancements + all global Set Accuracy bonuses)

 

Assume no enhancements in the pet. The 39% for BaseHitChance is then multiplied by the 1.67x accuracy of Laser burst for a total for about a 65~% chance to hit. If the minion was level shifted to 53, BaseHitChance becomes 75%, and the total accuracy is 125.25%, clamped to 95%.

 

 

If we assume a level 50 ACC IO into one of the equip powers, it's a 42.4% ACC increase. You don't hit diminishing returns here, so we'll go ahead and divide this up like we did HP: 50%, 30%, 20%. Since this is a minion, they'd receive 50% of the ACC bonus, or 21.2%. AccMods now becomes 1.67 * (1 + .212) or 2.0207.

If the minion is 49: 39% base chance becomes 78%; a 13% increase over the previous math; which is pretty good (although not as much as putting an enhancement into the power itself). If the minion is level shifted to 53, the the accuracy is 151%... clamped down to 95%. No change.

 

If we use thugs instead, who have a 1.1 on their pistol, you're looking around:

49 = 42.9

53 = 82.5

49 + enhanced = 51.9%

53 + enhanced = 95% (99.99% clamped down).

 

I really should have used thugs instead of bots for the math the first time around (My mastermind is bots, so I checked there first).

 

The biggest thing to note is that this is with 0 ACC slotted into the pet power themselves. A full 6 slot of Sovereign Right provides 97.49% ACC, moving the numbers to something like

49 = 83~

53 = clamped

49 + enhanced = clamped

53 + enhanced = clamped

 

So as noted at the start, it wouldn't change much on the accuracy front, which is the biggest change for the level shift.

We're talking past each other.... Sorry, I'm dropping out of this conversation. My stand on your proposal? I'm not against or for it. Each MM primary's pet upgrade powers only allow enhancements based on what they grant. So in the case of the ninjas and bots, you can already choose to improve their defense or resist respectively in their T1 upgrade. So I'm just going to let wiser heads than mine figure out what is going on and if it should be done.

[plainguy]

On 2/14/2024 at 6:37 AM, tidge said:

The one change for MMs that I had been advocating for is building in the effects of the first upgrade to all the henchmen... it makes no sense that the first upgrade is available before two of the three henchmen summons, and that it is available IIRC for the T1 henchmen in all exemplared content. We are WAY past the point at which players would take a long time to get to level 10+, which is teh era I think that the placement of the T1 summons and first upgrade reflect.

 

I've tempered my calls for this, only because MM now have some better slotting options for that power, so it can yield set bonuses/mules/etc.

 

Never-the-less, for primaries that don't have a "fourth" summons power to mule the Defense/Resistance globals, I wouldn't mind if the first upgrade was changed into some sort of resummonable "buff" pet (not a henchman) that could take those globals. I wouldn't mind there being some sort of balance pass.

There shouldn't be a Pet upgrade buff.. It should be automatic like any other power in any other set in the game.
Replace the 2 pet upgrade buffs with other powers.

[tidge]

9 minutes ago, plainguy said:

There shouldn't be a Pet upgrade buff.. It should be automatic like any other power in any other set in the game.
Replace the 2 pet upgrade buffs with other powers.

 

I feel that the second/final upgrade at Level 26 is warranted. The extra offense granted by that power makes sense to me, from a "progression through the game" PoV.  Much of the lower level content would be absurdly easy if the second upgrade's offense was baked in to each henchmen.

 

I point fingers at the first upgrade only because pretty much every MM (except a self-gimping variant) will always have the first upgrade before they get the second or third summons, so except for the brief time immediately after summoning, there won't be a time when the second and third henchmen won't have that buff applied.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

There shouldn't be a Pet upgrade buff.. It should be automatic like any other power in any other set in the game.
Replace the 2 pet upgrade buffs with other powers.

That would make MMs easier to play. And with the 2 freed up power slots, they would be even more powerful. (Edit: Of course, that would also mean that the changes to Ninjas and Robotics to make it possible to boost their defense or resist respectively would be wasted.)

Edited February 16 by Rudra

[biostem]

Each MM pet upgrade is literally 3 or more new powers you get for only 1 power pick and essentially requires no slotting to get the most out of, (since they benefit from the slots in the actual pet summon power, not the upgrade).  Maybe we should require MMs to use a power pick for each and every power they want their pets to get, since every other AT must do that as well.

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

Each MM pet upgrade is literally 3 or more new powers you get for only 1 power pick and essentially requires no slotting to get the most out of, (since they benefit from the slots in the actual pet summon power, not the upgrade).  Maybe we should require MMs to use a power pick for each and every power they want their pets to get, since every other AT must do that as well.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you are being sarcastic about requiring MMs to use power slots to get each of their pets' added abilities for the sake of making a point. (Though you do make a very good point.) And as any 'MM that hasn't had time to upgrade their pets because of mid-battle concerns' player can attest to, the pets can get by without the upgrade powers. So if a MM player doesn't want to take the upgrade powers, they don't really have to take them. (Their pets just won't have their full array of attacks/abilities, but that does work from a disposable henchmen point of view.)

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you are being sarcastic

Yes, I was being sarcastic, but to bring up a point;  A MM's pets are, for lack of a better analogy, their attacks.  They each have their own pools of HP and endurance, and can attack regardless of whether the MM is mezzed or out of range.  Could those pets use some love with regard to their fragility or the annoyance that is having to micromanage and upgrade them, or how the T1s being -2 levels means they are -6 to enemies when you are at +4, sure.  Does this mean they should get the benefits of the upgrade without having to take the upgrade powers, no.  Turning the existing upgrades into optional auto-powers that allow the pets to be instantly upgraded seems like a good compromise, IMHO...

[tidge]

The second henchmen (not pets) upgrade is the equivalent of the T9 "nukes", which is why it makes sense to me to keep that as an actual upgrade for the henchmen that are already part of the MM's suite of powers. It takes ~255K XP after level 22 (third and final henchman summons at level 22) to unlock the level 26 second upgrade.

 

It's the first henchmen upgrade, available after earning only ~3100 XP (level 6), and will almost always be chosen before the second henchman summons (~18K XP later, at level 12) that strikes me as weirdly wasteful in terms of primary set design space. Baking the offensive powers from the first upgrade into all of the henchmen pretty much only gives the MMs a relative boost during that first 3K XP of their career. I don't think this is game-breaking or over-powering.

 

...If that first henchman enhancement isn't necessary to give those particular attacks/powers to the henchmen, then it appeals to me to reconfigure that first power into something that can still provide the defenses/resistances but could also be used to mule those "pet globals". As it is right now, some primaries (e.g. Demons, Thugs) have a primary power that isn't one of their henchmen to slot those global pieces, while other primaries do not (e.g. Ninja, Robots)... so if those MM also don't have a secondary power that offers a place to put those pieces, the MM has to sacrifice slots that would otherwise go to Accuracy, Damage, Endurance for the henchmen... which we all agree is where the actual offense of the Mastermind comes from.

 

Despite the side-eye that this is me asking to make MM's over-powered, I'm actually just asking to (1) level the slotting potential across ALL MM primaries by (2) re-evaluating a power that (pretty much) all MMs will have in their build after just 3K XP and has another set of MM specific oddities; e.g. it may be cast as few times as once per gaming session, every primary summons after that first 3K XP will require a cast  of the power, etc.

 

I rather like the page 5-ish reworking of the MM primaries, such that I don't think there is much of a reason to revisit them for a while. However: when they are revisited, I think the level 6 power is common to all MM primaries and is worth examining.

 

As an aside: the recent influx of new players has me observing that in terms of percentages: I see a LOT more MM players than I would have expected, given how the AT can be "clumsy" to play in some content. MMs are rather unique to CoX, and the Homecoming team's choices (both for the MM AT and for Quality-of-Life changes) have improved things such that I'm happy for all the new MM players. I've gotten more PMs about Masterminds since January 2024 than for any other AT. I expect we'll see many questions/suggestions about the AT... ultimately thi Level 6 power oddity is pretty much the only area I see as needing a tweak.