How to improve Scrappers base performance?

[aethereal]

8 hours ago, Maelwys said:

 

And then came the Fury nerfs.

 

No.  Fury in its present state is just fine to make a Brute handily outdamage a scrapper who isn't using the ATOs.  You're just wrong.

 

If you want, you can go ahead and post a pylon time or whatever else without the ATOs -- heck, even with ATO1, or with both but with the ATO2 proc in an attack you don't use, if you want its set bonuses.  You simply have an incorrect view of where the scrapper's power comes from.

[Maelwys]

On 2/27/2024 at 5:07 PM, aethereal said:

 

No.  Fury in its present state is just fine to make a Brute handily outdamage a scrapper who isn't using the ATOs.  You're just wrong.

/jranger

I literally posted the comparative numbers earlier in this thread.
Purely with SOs alone and a basic (non ATO) crit rate, attack-for-attack Brutes will draw equal at ~80% ~65% Fury.
With any more damage buffage than that (Build Up, Against All Odds, Firey Embrace, Set Bonuses, Musculature Alpha, Teammate Buffs, etc.) or lower Fury, Scrappers pull ahead.

If you believe that I'm erring here (always possible!) then please show me the math.
 

Edited February 28 by Maelwys
[EDIT: Amended Fury Value]

[Gavlam]

I’m just going to leave this post here, for your review: Ston Min/Max

 

 Here’s some other notes: 

 

“Brutes/Tankers use as many procs as possible. For most builds, this was 6 damage/utility procs per attack. This is the best way to get the most damage out of these ATs since they can't get as much average base damage as Scrapper/Stalkers.”

 

I don’t think Ston mentions even using the scrapper ATO and it still outperforms with massive help from procs to brutes and tanks. Even if the ATO is being used, are most tanks/brutes proccing this hard in normal content? No. 
 

Scrappers are in an incredible place, just some people don’t like to play them, which is fine! 
 

I also agree, this thread is weird lol. 

 

 

Edited February 28 by Gavlam

[Greldek]

On 2/26/2024 at 5:24 PM, venetiasilver said:

The functional part is First Impressions.
Level 1 to 6 when say a brand new player will be hitting mobs, on the Brute they'll be deceived long term by how much more HP mobs are gaining. On a Scrapper they'll feel things are sluggish with some spice on the crits on Lieutenants every now and then. 

Brutes and scrappers have the easiest time if any ATs starting outm they are both damage machies compared to everything else, you could probably add stalkers to that short list.

 

You focus entirely too much on the below 20 game, it's perfectly fine that brutes out perform scrappers from 1 to 20, because from 21 to infinity scrappers out perform brutes

 

Is it somewhat of a bummer that they are so tied their ATO? Sorta I guess, but so are kheldians, stalkers, tankers , I think arachnos soldiers too. They all have bonus tied to their ATO that greatly benefits class, kheldian forms get a significant buff they can't replicate otherwise. Tankers get massive resists buff proc to help them cap resists. Stalkers damage rotation depends on their hide proc and they make liberal use of their build up recharge to get their numbers.

 

I'd much rather have interesting ATOs like those than some of the duds other ATs get.

 

This game is 20 years old and thousands of people play it daily, and hundreds of of them are playing scrappers.  They have potentially the highest ceiling of all ATs and def of the melee ATs. Scrappers are in a good place.

 

They have a few sinker sets that need reworks but so does every AT.

[aethereal]

16 hours ago, Maelwys said:

/jranger

I literally posted the comparative numbers earlier in this thread.
Purely with SOs alone and a basic (non ATO) crit rate, attack-for-attack Brutes will draw equal at ~80% Fury.

 

No that's not what your own post showed.  Scrapers draw even with Brute damage with a 10% crit rate at about 65 fury.  Brutes easily get and maintain 80-85 fury, which as it turns out is a significant amount better than 65 fury.

 

Sure, build up is better for Scrappers than Brutes.  And damage procs are better for Brutes than Scrappers.

 

Scrappers need more than a 10% crit rate.  They just don't need the kind of de facto 50% crit rate that the top builds can achieve.

[Maelwys]

10 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

No that's not what your own post showed.  Scrapers draw even with Brute damage with a 10% crit rate at about 65 fury.  Brutes easily get and maintain 80-85 fury, which as it turns out is a significant amount better than 65 fury.

Fair point and apologies.
That was likely a toddler-sleep-deprivation-induced brainfart rather than a typo.

That said, the numbers in that post you're referring to still shed considerable doubt on your statement that "Fury in its present state is just fine to make a Brute handily outdamage a scrapper who isn't using the ATOs".

Consider:
+ A solo Scrapper without ATOs but with a Musculature Core Alpha and a /SD secondary (AAO vs 1 Foe) @10% Crit Rate will remain ahead of a Brute until 83+ Fury.
+ A solo Scrapper without ATOs but with a Musculature Core Alpha plus a /Bio Secondary (Offense + Hardened Carapace) @10% Crit Rate will remain ahead until 88+ Fury.
+ If we ignore Damage Buffs from the Secondary (Scrappers gain 1.25x the buff from self +DamageStrength compared to a Brute; so it could be seen as unfair) and just take the Musculature Alpha then the Scrapper would require an additional +17% damage (@80 Fury) or +32% Damage (@85 Fury) to begin to pull ahead. Those are trivial numbers to reach solo with Set Bonuses, let alone with outside buffage from teammates/pets.

Therefore there is definitely a point that is pretty trivial to reach for many powerset combinations where Scrapper ATOs are just "icing on the cake".

Without any +Damage from an Alpha slot then things would certainly shift in favour of the Brute... however the breakpoints (+49% Damage @80 Fury and +65% Damage @85 Fury) still aren't exactly insurmountable even when soloing, especially if the Scrapper is Claws/ (1-stacked Followup puts Scrappers ahead instantly @80% Fury and only +16% Damage behind @85 Fury)
 

Quote

Sure, build up is better for Scrappers than Brutes.  And damage procs are better for Brutes than Scrappers.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from?
Damage Procs ignore Enhancements and other Buffs; including Fury.

Therefore if a Brute deals "X damage" and a Scrapper deals "Y damage" with an attack... and both slot the same damage proc... then all that will do is raise each of their damage by exactly the same amount (e.g. You just end up with "X+ProcDamage" and "Y+ProcDamage". ProcDamage itself remains constant regardless of Buffs or Fury - the only thing that would affect it is resistance buffs/debuffs on your target)

If your argument is that "Brutes tend to perform better with their attacks 6-slotted with damage procs"... then that'd be a fair statement; but the reason for this is that Brutes gain proportionally less benefit from +Damage Enhancement whenever they run at high Fury; and Scrappers have a much higher base damage modifier (which confirms my earlier statement that a large part of the power of Scrappers comes by way of their high damage modifier). However slotting attacks entirely with Damage Procs also requires ignoring +ACCURACY Enhancement; which requires substaintial concessions elsewhere in your build for sufficient +ToHit buffs or +GlobalAccuracy set bonuses to let you reliably hit your target with all of those procs.

 

Quote

Scrappers need more than a 10% crit rate.  They just don't need the kind of de facto 50% crit rate that the top builds can achieve.

Now you're just messing with me.

Surely there is no way in hell that any build is consistently averaging "50% Crit rate"??!?

As far as I'm aware, the highest Crit Chance you could conceivably reach is with a few specific T9 attacks vs LTs+ and a SSS ATO (+21%) plus a Critical Strikes ATO Proc (+50%) for 71% chance for that single attack to crit.
Aside from that, you could maybe fit an additional low-Arcanatime attack into the same Critical Strike Proc buff window (+16%+50% = maximum 66% chance for this second attack to crit), depending on what your T9's 'Animation Time Before Effect' value is.
However the SSS Proc itself has a maximum 90% chance to activate even under perfect conditions, so in reality you'd instead be looking at an average of +63.9% and +59.4% crit chance at *best*.
Then the proc-triggering attack itself along with any other attacks in the chain would have at most +16% chance to crit.
Therefore even with a hypothetical 3-attack chain, you'd be looking at an *extremely* best case average crit rate of 46.4%.

As I understand it, even in today's meta builds will have a bare minimum of 4 attacks in their chain; and likely closer to 6+. 
Perhaps you might get the average Crit Rate up sufficiently if you somehow managed to squeeze in another additional low-Arcanatime attack into the Critical Strike Proc buff window...? Maybe??
But even then, I suspect that hitting the maximum 90% Proc activation rate on SSS is often... dubious.

In practice, any given Scrapper's effective average crit chance should be far, FAR lower than that, because it is extremely difficult to cap the SSS Proc's activation rate in a fast-base-recharge attack (at least without enough Global Recharge that your ears are bleeding and/or the first 10 seconds of an Ageless Epiphany Destiny running). Which means that you have to choose between either using a short attack chain with a lower chance for the SSS Proc to activate; or a long attack chain with a higher chance for the SSS Proc to activate. (As RL examples from my own toon stable, I've a Katana Scrapper with a 4-attack chain that has a 32.9% chance for the Proc to activate; and an EnergyMelee Scrapper with a 6-attack chain that has an 85.2% chance for the Proc to activate...)
 

Edited February 28 by Maelwys

[Yomo Kimyata]

First of all, blasters usually have more damage than scrappers, so that's a problem.

Secondly, it's extremely unfair that tankers have such an easier time building for protection.  Fix that.  And why do they get inherent taunt and we don't?!?

Thirdly, why is it so hard for scrappers to debuff their enemies?  Defenders can easily keep a -25%+ damage resistance debuff up.  I think an inherent across the board -25% resistance aura sounds about right, and maybe that's where you put the taunt aura?

Fourth, how come dominators can routinely hold bosses and I'm lucky if I get my Blistering Cold proc to activate?  My themes demand a hold power for my scrapper and maybe I don't have the PRIVILEGE of being high enough level to access patron pools, ok?

 

This is nonsense.

[aethereal]

6 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Consider:
+ A solo Scrapper without ATOs but with a Musculature Core Alpha and a /SD secondary (AAO vs 1 Foe) @10% Crit Rate will remain ahead of a Brute until 83+ Fury.
+ A solo Scrapper without ATOs but with a Musculature Core Alpha plus a /Bio Secondary (Offense + Hardened Carapace) @10% Crit Rate will remain ahead until 88+ Fury.
+ If we ignore Damage Buffs from the Secondary (Scrappers gain 1.25x the buff from self +DamageStrength compared to a Brute; so it could be seen as unfair) and just take the Musculature Alpha then the Scrapper would require an additional +17% damage (@80 Fury) or +32% Damage (@85 Fury) to begin to pull ahead. Those are trivial numbers to reach solo with Set Bonuses, let alone with outside buffage from teammates/pets.

Therefore there is definitely a point that is pretty trivial to reach for many powerset combinations where Scrapper ATOs are just "icing on the cake".

 

 

No, you're just ignoring all the things that weigh in for Brutes.  For example, Brutes get more damage from damage auras (which don't crit), and the DoTs of Savage and Fire, and their damage works with things like Energy Transfer and Total Focus, which get nerfed crits.  They get their Fury bonuses on non-critting attacks from pools.  Because their damage is less feast-or-famine than Scrappers, they also are less likely to "waste" hits on overkill attacks on low-health opponents.  They get their full damage against the most numerous enemies of the game, etc.

 

Again, actually try this.  Go do a pylon or a trapdoor or whatever with a Scrapper who isn't using the ATOs.  It's a whole different AT.

 

(Note also: Brutes have real survivability advantages over Scrappers, and punchvoke and taunt.  Scrappers don't just need to be able to stay about even with Brute damage, they do need a damage advantage over them.  Just not the gigantic damage gulf that they have with optimized 50 builds.)

 

6 hours ago, Maelwys said:

I'm not sure where you're getting that from?
Damage Procs ignore Enhancements and other Buffs; including Fury.

Therefore if a Brute deals "X damage" and a Scrapper deals "Y damage" with an attack... and both slot the same damage proc... then all that will do is raise each of their damage by exactly the same amount (e.g. You just end up with "X+ProcDamage" and "Y+ProcDamage". ProcDamage itself remains constant regardless of Buffs or Fury - the only thing that would affect it is resistance buffs/debuffs on your target)

 

Damage procs do not eat into Brute fury, they do eat into Scrapper crits. 

 

6 hours ago, Maelwys said:

If your argument is that "Brutes tend to perform better with their attacks 6-slotted with damage procs"...

 

For any number of damage procs, they benefit a Brute more than a Scrapper.

 

6 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Now you're just messing with me.

Surely there is no way in hell that any build is consistently averaging "50% Crit rate"??!?

As far as I'm aware, the highest Crit Chance you could conceivably reach is with a few specific T9 attacks vs LTs+ and a SSS ATO (+21%) plus a Critical Strikes ATO Proc (+50%) for 71% chance for that single attack to crit.
Aside from that, you could maybe fit an additional low-Arcanatime attack into the same Critical Strike Proc buff window (+16%+50% = maximum 66% chance for this second attack to crit), depending on what your T9's 'Animation Time Before Effect' value is.
However the SSS Proc itself has a maximum 90% chance to activate even under perfect conditions, so in reality you'd instead be looking at an average of +63.9% and +59.4% crit chance at *best*.
Then the proc-triggering attack itself along with any other attacks in the chain would have at most +16% chance to crit.
Therefore even with a hypothetical 3-attack chain, you'd be looking at an *extremely* best case average crit rate of 46.4%.

 

I'm not trying to make a very exact "what is precisely the crit rate of a scrapper overall."  But the best builds have absolutely absurd effective uptime of the ATO2, and specifically they get it for their heaviest-hitting attacks.  The natural PPM of the superior ATO2 is 4.  With 180% global recharge (and no local recharge), its effective PPM is more than 11.  Its buff window is 3.25 seconds, so we would expect more than 50% uptime for it.  But you can finagle it so that some of your "downtime" from it is eaten by the tail end of the animation of attacks that were effected by it.  So if you have let's say 60% uptime with the ATO2, then your crit rate overall is .16 * .4 + .66 * .6 = 46%.  If the attacks that benefit from the higher crit rate are disproporionately your heavier-hitting attacks, you'll see that as the equivalent of an above-50% crit rate.  You'll probably only really achieve that in a pretty controlled circumstance where you don't have to move and can concentrate on cycling your attacks absolutely optimally, like a pylon, yes, the upper limit is somewhere around a 50% overall crit rate.

 

And that's what you're seeing.  You're seeing effective crit rates of 30%, 40%, yes, even 50% in top Scrapper builds, in their pylon times and trapdoor times and just their holistic performance in play, and then you back yourself into imagining that that performace doesn't come mostly from ATO2, because it seems impossible.  But it really is true.  Like 2/3rds or more of the crits that an effective level 50 Scrapper build come from one source: the ATO2.  People just imagine that the basic class chassis must be better than it is, because it seems so crazy that so much of the Scrapper's performance comes from just this one proc.  But that's actually the case, and Scrappers really are pretty anemic without their ATOs.

 

So:  Scrappers need more than a 10% crit rate.  They just don't need a 50% (or 40%) crit rate.

[Haijinx]

How can you have no local recharge in a proc that has 23% recharge built in?

[UltraAlt]

On 2/26/2024 at 5:36 AM, venetiasilver said:

I understand at high end buffing scrappers pushes them too much, however the early game slog means not many would want to play them. How would you address this?

 

Nothing is stopping me from playing them other than playing other alts.

I was playing a sub-20 scraper yesterday. In fact, I had my XP turned off because I didn't want to miss getting the Frostfire mission.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "early game" are you talking about "the game" versus the "end-game" or are you talking about a certain level range?

 

I see no proof that "not many would want to play them".

Just because you don't team with many scrappers or play one yourself doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of them out there.

 

I see no problem with scrappers.

 

Edited February 29 by UltraAlt

[Haijinx]

I don't think there are any sets where the following 3 are true ..

 

They have an attack where they can achieve a max proc rate

 

Said attack animates fast enough to give you max proc uptime 

 

You can easily get the sort of global recharge you would need to keep the proc running almost all the time. 

 

______

Keep in mind you can't slot in a vacuum.  If I put the Proc into an attack to try this I won't get the 10 percent global recharge from that set at all. 

 

And  I can't slot the melee purple set in that attack either.  

 

 

[Maelwys]

18 hours ago, aethereal said:

No, you're just ignoring all the things that weigh in for Brutes.  For example, Brutes get more damage from damage auras (which don't crit)...

Quills and Irradiated Ground are both damage auras, and both of those crit. It's only Damage Auras from the *secondary* Scrapper powersets which don't crit... since to my knowledge none of the powers from secondary powersets (and hardly any pool powers) have Crit Mechanics baked in. Which, yes, could do with being addressed, particularly in the case of things like /FA's "Burn" (I appreciate that one of the most familiar Brute outliers is /FA Brutes on Fire Farms, but that's an entirely seperate thread!).

However you're right, my Original Post *did indeed* ignore rather a lot of things.

It also ignored -Res Procs (which affect both ATs equally); and Epic Powersets (e.g. Zapp/Moonbeam on Scrapper vs Gloom/TarPatch on Brute); as well as powers with different mechanics for "Crits" like Seismic Smash (which doesn't Crit but instead deals more base damage) or Energy Transfer (which does a bigger heal) or Total Focus (which doubles its buff instead). It also only very, very briefly touched on Scrapper's greater ability to self-buff damage%, power-for-power, than a Brute (see: Perfection of Body, Blood Thirst, Power Siphon, Soul Drain, Follow Up, Against All Odds, Meltdown, Firey Embrace, Hardened Carapace, etc. and even Pool Powers like 'Assault' and 'Adrenal Booster').
 

This is because my Original Post was not intended to be an unintelligible encyclopedic thesis of any&all Brute and Scrapper powers, abilities and mechanics. It was however intended to address the Original Parent Poster's claims that "Scrappers power budget is roughly 90% put in the Archetype Origin enhancement for the critical strikes proc" and "One Thunder Kick from a Scrapper will always do X damage, meanwhile Brute will do X+150% damage which is basically a crit and a half when they are at 75% fury" - by illustrating rather simply the effect of a Scrapper's Higher Base Damage Modifier and a Brute's Fury on the same single attack under some different real-game conditions. And showing that the deficit (if any) was surmountable without ATOs.
 

I'm not attempting here to state what the current bleeding edge endgame meta should/shouldn't be, or to give a set of best-case twinked builds or illustrate how quickly a particular powerset combination can run through a given mission or defeat a particular target (whether or not those sort of runs are actually a good benchmark of performance, since RNGesus can always suddenly decide to smike or bless your RL crit rate on any given run, is also a conversation for an entirely different thread).

I am however attempting to provide a reasonably-well-reasoned counterpoint to some notions which I believe to be 'exaggerated' at best.

 

Quote

Damage procs do not eat into Brute fury, they do eat into Scrapper crits.

For any number of damage procs, they benefit a Brute more than a Scrapper.

Case in point.

As I stated before: Damage Procs ignore Enhancements and other Buffs; including Fury.
They are not affected by Damage buffs or Debuffs, so they do NOT CARE about Fury OR about Crits.

A Damage Proc will add precisely X damage to an attack; regardless of whether it's a Scrapper or a Brute making that attack, regardless of how much Fury or Damage Buffs you have; and regardless of whether you Crit or not. The only things that affect the damage they deal is your level and your target's damage resistances.
 

Therefore the only case in which slotting a Damage Proc will be "worth more" to a Brute is if that Brute can gain more raw damage by OVERSLOTTING the power in question with Damage Procs (e.g. Scrapper damage for an attack may well peak at 2x +5 Lv50 Damage IOs plus 4x Damage Procs; but Brute damage for that same attack peak at 6x Damage Procs). However this is due to the disparity in Base damage between Brutes and Scrappers; not a reflection on Crits or Fury... and since the Scrapper has the option of slotting 1-2x Acc/Dam HOs in place of those Damage IOs, the Brute will fall behind on accuracy.

A -Resistance Proc will work similarly, except that it *does* care about BOTH Fury and Crits; and can therefore often be a better means of magnifying your damage output, particularly if you're fighting something that's big and tanky but which doesn't have much "-Resistance resistance".

 

Quote

the best builds have absolutely absurd effective uptime of the ATO2, and specifically they get it for their heaviest-hitting attacks. The natural PPM of the superior ATO2 is 4.  With 180% global recharge (and no local recharge), its effective PPM is more than 11. 

Haijinx has already pointed this out; but the SCS Proc has +23.189 local recharge baked into it.

 

Quote

You'll probably only really achieve that in a pretty controlled circumstance where you don't have to move and can concentrate on cycling your attacks absolutely optimally, like a pylon, yes, the upper limit is somewhere around a 50% overall crit rate.

 

This is really getting into a tangent about the SCS Proc now (apologies OP!) but I'm sorta interested in the underlying mechanics of builds; so even though you haven't actually given me any example attack chains + slotting examples to work from it's still vaguely interesting to chew on + spitball; and I doubt that I'll be told to shush as long as we can keep the thread vaguely civil.

So here goes:

SCS is a 4 PPM proc (I'm not sure where you're getting that "effective 11" PPM figure from?) which means that it has a fairly low activate rate. So IDEALLY you'll want to slot it in a single-target attack which has a Long Base Recharge, a Long Animation Time and a large 'Animation Time Before Effect' value.
And as you rightly mentioned, ideally you want your heaviest damage attack(s) to be affected by its buff. So you also need to slot it in an attack which is NOT one of your heaviest-damage attacks but which IS powerful enough to include in your attack chain without too much DPA loss.
All that limits your options substantially, so in many cases (like my Katana Scrapper) it may be more efficient to slot it in a faster-recharging, faster-animating, high-DPA ST attack which you can use more often, despite the loss in proc activation rate.

Since you mentioned Pylons and "best builds"and Gavlam already posted the link to Ston's thread ... lets take the attack chain of the 2nd place "Scrapper pylon soloer" there as a functional example (since it's only 2s behind 1st place but doesn't rely on any momentum building!)

That build has the Battle Axe Primary, and apparently uses a chain of "Swoop>Chop>Cleave>Swoop>Chop>Zapp" with the Crit Strikes Proc placed into "Swoop".

• Swoop has a 12s base recharge and a Cast Time of 1.23s. With no other "local recharge" than the SCS Proc slotted, that works out at a Proc Activation rate of 73.1409%
• Swoop's 'Animation Time' is 1.233 sec and its 'Animation Time Before Effect' is 0.733 sec; which means that the SCS Proc activates 0.733 seconds in, with the 3.25s +Crit% buff itself likely activating after a further 0.5 seconds have elapsed due to its own 'Animation Time Before Effect' value. 0.733+0.5=1.233 seconds total, so the actual 3.25s buff window starts immediately after the power finishes animating; although before the next attack can begin activating you still need to round up for Arcanatime (1.452s) so you end up with 3.031 seconds left in the SCS +CritRate buff window.
• Chop has an 'Animation Time' of 1.2s and an 'Animation Time Before Effect' of 0.7s; so it easily falls within this buff window. Again, round up for Arcanatime (1.452s) and you're now left with 1.579 seconds in the SCS +CritRate buff window.
• Cleave has an 'Animation Time' of 2.333s and an 'Animation Time Before Effect' of 1.233s; so it will *just* makes it into the remaining buff window before it elapses. 

So that's Chop and Cleave affected by the buff...

• The Second Swoop itself won't be affected by the buff; but it WILL have a chance to proc SCS once more, so here we go again...
• Chop has an 'Animation Time' of 1.2s and an 'Animation Time Before Effect' of 0.7s; so it easily falls within this buff window. Yet again, Round up for Arcanatime (1.452s) and you're left with 1.579 seconds in the SCS +CritRate buff window.
• Zapp has an 'Animation Time' of 1.333s and an 'Animation Time Before Effect' of 0.933s; so it falls within the buff window. Round up for Arcanatime (1.584s) and the buff will have expired before you can queue up another attack.
   

None of the attacks that fall within the buff window gain bonus crit chance %; so they will each have a maximum of (0.1+0.06+0.50)*0.731409 = 48.27% chance to crit.
Swoop itself will never fall within the buff window, so it has a maximum of 16% chance to crit.

So I make that a MAXIMUM overall average Crit rate of 37.5% across all six attacks.

However actually performing this attack chain without any gaps requires that Swoop's actual recharge time is at most 3.036 seconds long (1.452 from Chop + 1.584 from Zapp). Which is technically possible; but requires 395.26% recharge. You start off with 100% Base recharge; and you gain +23.19% in Swoop from the SCS Proc. +70% from Hasten leaves around +202.07% still to find from other sources. Tricky. Particularly if you really don't want any more "local" recharge in Swoop itself - since the more local recharge you slot, the lower your proc activation rate will become... and that 37.5% Crit rate figure above will very quickly start to plummet.

Therefore I very much suspect that even most "best builds" will peak substantially lower than a 30% overall average Crit rate unless they're getting an imperial tonne of external +recharge buffs; barring any short-term shenaniganery like chaining both Ageless Destiny plus Geas of the Kind Ones etc. etc.

Happy to be proven wrong, however; and I know there're still a few questionmarks over the exact timing mechanics of that SCS Proc... 😄
 

Edited February 29 by Maelwys