For what it's worth: better missions

[temnix]

The title says it all. I know there are many interesting missions... well, there are often interesting twists in hack-and-slash... but lots of missions, especially smaller ones, look hastily slapped together. Being told that a person by such a name is held by such a group, with the entrance message reading "Time to rescue a hapless Citizen (yes, with a capital) from the clutches of evil," and the mission itself being a warehouse with twos-threes of baddies standing around and that innocent somewhere in the back, does not make my toes tingle. Some missions remind me of "We know you like Dog, so we put some Dog in the Cat, so you can do Dog while..."

 

A few examples. A jewelry store is being robbed by - what villain group, do you think? The Vahzilok! Hacksaw-wielding surgeons in bloody aprons and shambling, bomb-strapped corpses stand - and snooze! - around that store. Poor sods, they must be desperate for money. No display windows have been smashed, however, and only one little holding cell is open in the vault. The mission message adds to the confusion: "The Vahzilok are trying to poison Faultline!" (or something like that). Here is another: a villain by the name of R-something has been appearing in Clockwork raids. "It is time to show R that crime doesn't pay!" Excuse me? Clockwork? The word "crime" is not even applicable to them. There was another quest in which my character supposedly stopped "a war" between the Skulls and the Clockwork in a warehouse that belonged to the Skulls, but one which the Clockwork were "moving in." This could make some sense if it was Skulls vs. Hellions or something, but the robots? These villain groups are treated interchangeably. There is no attempt to set them apart or give a meaning to their schemes.

 

I can't tell if this frequent sloppy quest-writing is something new that the staff of Homecoming has slapped together or they have been around before the shutdown. But villains' activities out in the open have always been pointless and unexplained too. Cultists of the Circle of Thorns suspend victims in green light in parks. What is that about? What is the Circle itself about, besides fuming green from the eyes themselves? Thorn daggers, on the other hand, are red. That's all there is to them, isn't it? Green light and red daggers. At least they could mutter something informative for the hero - if only there were, in fact, a story behind the group.

 

There are also cases of poor introductions to quests and groups. Some are bugs: my character, not a Praetorian and therefore excluded from that dimension's quests, traveled to Imperial City via TUNNEL, and near Pocket D, behind one of the skyscrapers, suddenly got a quest to fight the Syndicate with police's support. I killed 40 of those trenchcoat-wearing, sunglasses-blinded, circle-kicking Neo wannabes in a row! And I got to continue to the next stage, if I wanted to. In that case there was simply a missing condition in the code. But here is a different situation: I was traveling around Steel Canyon and saw on the sidewalk under a twirling arrow a red-headed girl who did not look like anything like a United Nations trooper but was one. She told me about a skirmish between the Fifth Column and the Council. I had not been given an introduction to either group by anyone, and out of character last I remembered was that the Council was the Fifth Column after its takeover by Kheldians. How come the Column returned, the Council stayed and, evidently, they lived apart and indifferent to each other most of the time? But the conversation and the mission-giving ended before they began: I agreed to look into the conflict, I was given an ego-pleasing rank of sargeant by the U. N., and then, after I clicked "Let's get to work," the girl told me "I have no work for you." I guess my level count was not high enough, or too high, or I was not supposed to have spoken with this NPC in the first place. And now that I think about it, the Council here is inserted again as just any villain group to go VS the Column. Other contacts turned out to have no missions for me the very first time I met them. Was I again too high-level? Well, give me those low-level missions, I don't care! Let the auto-leveler do its job.

 

This combination of careless plotting, bugs and disheartening design choices does not help maintain my interest in the game. But hey! I was invited to work for the Midnight Squad - the very original "we are mystical mystics, we like libraries with lampshades" band that reminds me of that lame Voldemort-fighting cabal in "Harry Potter" movies... what were they called? Here is an idea for the writers: instead of trying to pull together every cliche why not actually write your own stories for the villain groups and create real characters with personalities and motivations, whether villainous, heroic, antiheroic or none of the above? There isn't a single NPC in this game I have met so far who is a believable person. Who is given enough screen time to show himself as a believable person, to begin with! Or is that because... a terrible thought! ...is that because believeable people are those passerby on the streets - the students, the slouching bald guys, the construction workers carrying logs, "the hapless Citizens," and we supers are the paper dolls?

Edited March 2 by temnix

[Rudra]

Did you read the mission briefings? Okay, let's see if I can break this down....

 

50 minutes ago, temnix said:

A jewelry store is being robbed by - what villain group, do you think? The Vahzilok! Hacksaw-wielding surgeons in bloody aprons and shambling, bomb-strapped corpses stand - and snooze! - around that store. Poor sods, they must be desperate for money.

Yes, like every other villain group in the game, the Vahzilok do go out and rob to get funds to buy the things they can't outright steal or harvest from victims.

 

50 minutes ago, temnix said:

No display windows have been smashed, however, and only one little holding cell is open in the vault. The mission message adds to the confusion: "The Vahzilok are trying to poison Faultline!" (or something like that).

I think you are getting your Vahzilok missions mixed. (Edit: Also, there are no exterior broken windows because any given instance map can be used in any given zone and they are not part of the zone. So you can't see out of them, but the broken windows would let you.)

 

50 minutes ago, temnix said:

Here is another: a villain by the name of R-something has been appearing in Clockwork raids. "It is time to show R that crime doesn't pay!" Excuse me? Clockwork? The word "crime" is not even applicable to them.

The Clockwork are psionically controlled/operated constructs used by the Clockwork King to build more workers/drones for him to control and to seize various assets for him. And yes, they will kidnap people, and rob buildings, and stage assaults on facilities, all per what the Clockwork King may be working towards at that point in time.

 

50 minutes ago, temnix said:

There was another quest in which my character supposedly stopped "a war" between the Skulls and the Clockwork in a warehouse that belonged to the Skulls, but one which the Clockwork were "moving in." This could make some sense if it was Skulls vs. Hellions or something, but the robots? 

As the mission briefing for that mission states, the Clockwork have taken over a warehouse belonging to the Skulls. And you are tasked with removing them before the Skulls get involved and it explodes into a gang war. Why would there be a gang war between the Skulls and Clockwork? Because the Clockwork are in every zone you can find Skulls in. And just like they would if anyone else invades their turf, the Skulls will retaliate. And if they decide to try and expunge the Clockwork presence, the fighting will completely engulf zones like King's Row. And as much as the citizens are threatened by the Clockwork and Skulls when they aren't trying to drive each other out of any given territory, it will be so much worse if they actively start fighting each other in the streets. And yes, the Clockwork will fight back because the Skulls attacking them would be construed as the Skulls attempting to interfere with what the Clockwork King has planned.

 

50 minutes ago, temnix said:

Cultists of the Circle of Thorns suspend victims in green light in parks. What is that about? What is the Circle itself about, besides fuming green from the eyes themselves? Thorn daggers, on the other hand, are red. That's all there is to them, isn't it?

The Circle of Thorns frequently sacrifice people with the blood of the Mu as part of demonic rituals and sacrifices, or to take their bodies for their own use, or to take their power. it all depends on the mission in question. Those green glowing flames the people are suspended in are part of a ritual sacrifice the victim is part of.

 

50 minutes ago, temnix said:

There are also cases of poor introductions to quests and groups. Some are bugs: my character, not a Praetorian and therefore excluded from that dimension's quests, traveled to Imperial City via TUNNEL, and near Pocket D, behind one of the skyscrapers, suddenly got a quest to fight the Syndicate with police's support. I killed 40 of those trenchcoat-wearing, sunglasses-blinded, circle-kicking Neo wannabes in a row! And I got to continue to the next stage, if I wanted to. In that case there was simply a missing condition in the code.

You found a zone event. And no, it isn't bugged. You had to enter the correct building to progress it.

 

50 minutes ago, temnix said:

But here is a different situation: I was traveling around Steel Canyon and saw on the sidewalk under a twirling arrow a red-headed girl who did not look like anything like a United Nations trooper but was one. She told me about a skirmish between the Fifth Column and the Council.

That is Laura Lockhart and she has a very interesting arc. For starters, it can end differently if you do it a second time (or more).

 

50 minutes ago, temnix said:

I had not been given an introduction to either group by anyone, and out of character last I remembered was that the Council was the Fifth Column after its takeover by Kheldians.

The Council and the 5th Column are not the same group. Neither has either been taken over the Kheldians.

 

Okay, I'm just stopping here before this gets any more ridiculous. Do you even read anything in the game? Everything I am explaining is explained in the game. In the mission briefings, in the mission popups and clues, in the mission debriefings, in the chatter from the enemy mobs, pretty much everywhere. And if you aren't reading the available lore as provided to you in the game, then how do you expect to understand anything about any of the factions?

Edited March 2 by Rudra

[ThatGuyCDude]

A lot of this is carry-over from the original game before the shut-down.  Some of it is out-leveling content... there's a way to replay content you've overrun, but unlocking it isn't really intuitive to new (or returning) players: I tripped over it as a consequence of a mission I was running.  I can't say (because I don't know) WHY overleveling content is still deemed necessary... it could be related to enemy groups not having appropriate mobs for certain level ranges (powers not defined, insufficient challenge for a stronger character), but that's certainly something to work on.  Coming up with variants of the enemies in each faction that work in all level categories is a long-term goal I think the community at large would support.  Bypassing the level caps on content would be the change to follow, and I know that I would welcome such an outcome.

 

As for being introduced to the players, again, most factions are introduced in starting level content that the player passes too quickly.  Your described immersion-breaking mashups are also a result of the Police Scanner: these are radial missions randomly-generated and they probably need more restrictions in their logic [Street gangs versus Street gangs, diabolical forces versus diabolical forces.  In your example, a Clockwork war versus Vahzilok instead of Skulls... in the sewer instead of a warehouse, and Hellions or Trolls in the jewelry store].

 

Villain Side has somewhat better writing than Paragon, because it was produced later.  It's got flaws too, but it's more coherent and you don't outlevel the zones as quickly.  Some of the Villain contacts are really entertaining too, like the Radio, or fascinating, like Vincent Ross.  I can't speak for Praetoria, though, as I've played hardly any of that content (contact finder flung me into First Ward, but I didn't really get what was going on).

 

It's a fair criticism that the writing in the game is a little thin.  Indeed, the players are essentially paper dolls, as they are meant to fill in the plot gaps with their own motivations and backstory.  The text in the game could use some updating, indeed, and hopefully that is something that will be addressed as the game goes on.  There's a mountain of content, though, and the HomeComing devs aren't really to blame for the cheesy old material.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

Your described immersion-breaking mashups are also a result of the Police Scanner: these are radial missions randomly-generated and they probably need more restrictions in their logic [Street gangs versus Street gangs, diabolical forces versus diabolical forces.  In your example, a Clockwork war versus Vahzilok instead of Skulls... in the sewer instead of a warehouse, and Hellions or Trolls in the jewelry store].

Radio and paper missions have a single enemy faction in them. The Clockwork/Skulls mission in question is a low-level badge mission.

[ThatGuyCDude]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Radio and paper missions have a single enemy faction in them. The Clockwork/Skulls mission in question is a low-level badge mission.

Fair enough.  I've only been back on City for a few days, so my memory of content is reasonably foggy.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

hmm.....

Very few missions use the....

Kill this boss to get a key to unlock the door mechanic (I think frostfire does for example)

 

also some more Warring factions quests.

Skulls Vs Hellions

Warriors Vs Tsoo

Sky raiders Vs Goldbrickers

 

There are also very, very few quests with lasers/traps.

AFAIK there is only one quest where you have to return to the start of the stage to survive the caves collapse.

There is also only one quest where we have to return to the start to avoid an unkillable boss. (The stage is tiny and never randomized)

 

So there is potential variety in quests but not much.

[lemming]

6 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

There are also very, very few quests with lasers/traps.

AFAIK there is only one quest where you have to return to the start of the stage to survive the caves collapse.

There is also only one quest where we have to return to the start to avoid an unkillable boss. (The stage is tiny and never randomized)

Dr Aeon and the rugs in the last Max mission.  Mayhem missions.  And a bunch of others with triggers when you get to a certain spot.  Just not all have something visible.

 

Other than Hess, other one that used to do this was the second Heckenburg Nemesis mission, but now you just get kicked out.   And Hard Mode Lady Grey now has an escape at the end.

 

Reichsman is one.  There's also the First Ward mission with Praetor White.  Iirc, Antimatter is in another one.   Ajax in Sharkhead.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

2 hours ago, lemming said:

Dr Aeon and the rugs in the last Max mission.  Mayhem missions.  And a bunch of others with triggers when you get to a certain spot.  Just not all have something visible.

 

Other than Hess, other one that used to do this was the second Heckenburg Nemesis mission, but now you just get kicked out.   And Hard Mode Lady Grey now has an escape at the end.

 

Reichsman is one.  There's also the First Ward mission with Praetor White.  Iirc, Antimatter is in another one.   Ajax in Sharkhead.

 

one of these days I'm gonna get around to doing those SF/TF thingies

its just not easy building a team at 4am....

its good to know that those mechanics are not just one offs though

[Rudra]

43 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

2 hours ago, lemming said:

Dr Aeon and the rugs in the last Max mission.  Mayhem missions.  And a bunch of others with triggers when you get to a certain spot.  Just not all have something visible.

 

Other than Hess, other one that used to do this was the second Heckenburg Nemesis mission, but now you just get kicked out.   And Hard Mode Lady Grey now has an escape at the end.

 

Reichsman is one.  There's also the First Ward mission with Praetor White.  Iirc, Antimatter is in another one.   Ajax in Sharkhead.

 

one of these days I'm gonna get around to doing those SF/TF thingies

its just not easy building a team at 4am....

its good to know that those mechanics are not just one offs though

Except for Lady Grey and Reischmann, all those missions @lemming listed are not TFs/SFs. They are regular missions/arcs.

 

Edited March 3 by Rudra
Edited to add "and Reischmann".

[temnix]

On 3/2/2024 at 11:01 AM, Rudra said:

The Council and the 5th Column are not the same group. Neither has either been taken over the Kheldians.

 

Right. Now who is being ridiculous? The 5th Column was possessed by Kheldians and turned into Council. You can still see both 5th Column and Council troops on the streets. There is even a "Krieg" soldier in Boomtown who is explicitly described as being a leftover of the Column after their takeover, for those who didn't know it already. I don't pretend to know everything or even very much about the villain groups, only what I have been told by quest-givers and texts, but I do know that piece of history. And this is my one and only time of replying to you, Mr. 4000-odd-forum-posts-and-counting.

 

[Rudra]

40 minutes ago, temnix said:

 

Right. Now who is being ridiculous? The 5th Column was possessed by Kheldians and turned into Council. You can still see both 5th Column and Council troops on the streets. There is even a "Krieg" soldier in Boomtown who is explicitly described as being a leftover of the Column after their takeover, for those who didn't know it already. I don't pretend to know everything or even very much about the villain groups, only what I have been told by quest-givers and texts, but I do know that piece of history. And this is my one and only time of replying to you, Mr. 4000-odd-forum-posts-and-counting.

 

Will you please go read the lore. The 5th Column came into existence in 1938. (Edit: Founded by Requiem, Arakhn, and someone else.) The Nictus have been on Earth since Cimerora. Likely even before then. The Council was a break off group from the 5th Column that usurped the 5th Column's place but did not eradicate them. The Council and the 5th Column are embroiled in a war of dominance against each other. The 5th Column has sleeper agents in the Council, because the Council includes a lot of former 5th Column troops in their numbers. The Council and the 5th Column have Nictus troops. The 5th Column is led by Reischmann. The Council is led by The Center. Neither the Reischmann or the Center are Nictus or Nictus-infused. Requiem and Arakhn are Nictus-infused, in different ways, and are trying to take over as leaders, but neither actually leads either faction. (Edit: Which is why you find Requiem in the process of taking the 5th Column from the Reischmann in that incarnate arc. He has finally grown powerful enough to defeat Reischmann and take back the 5th Column.)

Edited March 3 by Rudra

[Norl]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Will you please go read the lore. The 5th Column came into existence in 1938. (Edit: Founded by Requiem, Arakhn, and someone else.) The Nictus have been on Earth since Cimerora. Likely even before then. The Council was a break off group from the 5th Column that usurped the 5th Column's place but did not eradicate them. The Council and the 5th Column are embroiled in a war of dominance against each other. The 5th Column has sleeper agents in the Council, because the Council includes a lot of former 5th Column troops in their numbers. The Council and the 5th Column have Nictus troops. The 5th Column is led by Reischmann. The Council is led by The Center. Neither the Reischmann or the Center are Nictus or Nictus-infused. Requiem and Arakhn are Nictus-infused, in different ways, and are trying to take over as leaders, but neither actually leads either faction. (Edit: Which is why you find Requiem in the process of taking the 5th Column from the Reischmann in that incarnate arc. He has finally grown powerful enough to defeat Reischmann and take back the 5th Column.)

The 5th Column was a little too close to Nazis, which is legally problematic in some countries where you want to do business.

[Norl]

Lowbie missions in King's Row seem to be Generation 2 missions, there is a lot more than just steamroll the place!  Infiltrate, defeat some and the boss, everyone else flees, more cut scenes than usual, ravers, who then run away.

[Rudra]

26 minutes ago, Norl said:

The 5th Column was a little too close to Nazis, which is legally problematic in some countries where you want to do business.

Yes, that's why the Council was made and the 5th Column sidelined for a few years. It doesn't change the game lore which is being misrepresented on this thread.

[BrandX]

On 3/2/2024 at 12:14 AM, temnix said:

The title says it all. I know there are many interesting missions... well, there are often interesting twists in hack-and-slash... but lots of missions, especially smaller ones, look hastily slapped together. Being told that a person by such a name is held by such a group, with the entrance message reading "Time to rescue a hapless Citizen (yes, with a capital) from the clutches of evil," and the mission itself being a warehouse with twos-threes of baddies standing around and that innocent somewhere in the back, does not make my toes tingle. Some missions remind me of "We know you like Dog, so we put some Dog in the Cat, so you can do Dog while..."

 

A few examples. A jewelry store is being robbed by - what villain group, do you think? The Vahzilok! Hacksaw-wielding surgeons in bloody aprons and shambling, bomb-strapped corpses stand - and snooze! - around that store. Poor sods, they must be desperate for money. No display windows have been smashed, however, and only one little holding cell is open in the vault. The mission message adds to the confusion: "The Vahzilok are trying to poison Faultline!" (or something like that). Here is another: a villain by the name of R-something has been appearing in Clockwork raids. "It is time to show R that crime doesn't pay!" Excuse me? Clockwork? The word "crime" is not even applicable to them. There was another quest in which my character supposedly stopped "a war" between the Skulls and the Clockwork in a warehouse that belonged to the Skulls, but one which the Clockwork were "moving in." This could make some sense if it was Skulls vs. Hellions or something, but the robots? These villain groups are treated interchangeably. There is no attempt to set them apart or give a meaning to their schemes.

 

I can't tell if this frequent sloppy quest-writing is something new that the staff of Homecoming has slapped together or they have been around before the shutdown. But villains' activities out in the open have always been pointless and unexplained too. Cultists of the Circle of Thorns suspend victims in green light in parks. What is that about? What is the Circle itself about, besides fuming green from the eyes themselves? Thorn daggers, on the other hand, are red. That's all there is to them, isn't it? Green light and red daggers. At least they could mutter something informative for the hero - if only there were, in fact, a story behind the group.

 

There are also cases of poor introductions to quests and groups. Some are bugs: my character, not a Praetorian and therefore excluded from that dimension's quests, traveled to Imperial City via TUNNEL, and near Pocket D, behind one of the skyscrapers, suddenly got a quest to fight the Syndicate with police's support. I killed 40 of those trenchcoat-wearing, sunglasses-blinded, circle-kicking Neo wannabes in a row! And I got to continue to the next stage, if I wanted to. In that case there was simply a missing condition in the code. But here is a different situation: I was traveling around Steel Canyon and saw on the sidewalk under a twirling arrow a red-headed girl who did not look like anything like a United Nations trooper but was one. She told me about a skirmish between the Fifth Column and the Council. I had not been given an introduction to either group by anyone, and out of character last I remembered was that the Council was the Fifth Column after its takeover by Kheldians. How come the Column returned, the Council stayed and, evidently, they lived apart and indifferent to each other most of the time? But the conversation and the mission-giving ended before they began: I agreed to look into the conflict, I was given an ego-pleasing rank of sargeant by the U. N., and then, after I clicked "Let's get to work," the girl told me "I have no work for you." I guess my level count was not high enough, or too high, or I was not supposed to have spoken with this NPC in the first place. And now that I think about it, the Council here is inserted again as just any villain group to go VS the Column. Other contacts turned out to have no missions for me the very first time I met them. Was I again too high-level? Well, give me those low-level missions, I don't care! Let the auto-leveler do its job.

 

This combination of careless plotting, bugs and disheartening design choices does not help maintain my interest in the game. But hey! I was invited to work for the Midnight Squad - the very original "we are mystical mystics, we like libraries with lampshades" band that reminds me of that lame Voldemort-fighting cabal in "Harry Potter" movies... what were they called? Here is an idea for the writers: instead of trying to pull together every cliche why not actually write your own stories for the villain groups and create real characters with personalities and motivations, whether villainous, heroic, antiheroic or none of the above? There isn't a single NPC in this game I have met so far who is a believable person. Who is given enough screen time to show himself as a believable person, to begin with! Or is that because... a terrible thought! ...is that because believeable people are those passerby on the streets - the students, the slouching bald guys, the construction workers carrying logs, "the hapless Citizens," and we supers are the paper dolls?

 

Some of that you have to remember is you're in the middle of clearing that up.  From a story stand point, you've cleaned it up.  HOWEVER when the game first came out, pretty sure they didn't have the tech to have your world view keep all those criminals off the street.

Later, we got some tech to do that and we see it in AP, when you complete a mission, you lose a bunch of enemies off the street.

I can't recall the contact, but if you complete all the ones in AP, I believe the last contact will talk about how you cleaned up that section of the city so well none have to worry and you are sent off to the next part of the city to work on cleaning it up.

 

So on and so on.  People don't generally get through all those missions of course.

 

Some of those design choices one has to handwave away, as the meta of the game needs enemies everywhere for everyone.

[A.I.D.A.]

The clockwork aren't just robots, they're the hive-mind psychic shards of a brain-jar creeper obsessed with Penelope Yin. How does taking over the Skulls' warehouse benefit them? I dunno, but the Clockwork King is a hundred kinds of crazy, so it doesn't particularly need to make sense.

[Biff Pow]

On 3/2/2024 at 12:14 AM, temnix said:

This combination of careless plotting, bugs and disheartening design choices does not help maintain my interest in the game.

 

Can I have your stuff?