Let's talk about DPA and MA (What's wrong with Brawl?)

[djharr]

So, I was reading a discussion about MA/WP scrappers. The OP was looking for some build hints. Along the way, the thread diverged somewhat into a discussion of attack chains. The posters seemed to agree that the optimal ST attack chain was something like Crippling Axe Kick->Storm Kick->Crippling Strike/Crane Kick->Storm Kick. They bemoaned the fact that this is a very difficult chain to pull off seamlessly, as it requires a 225% recharge reduction on Storm Kick, which is difficult to achieve in an MA build. One of the considerations they had was that Thunder Kick, in particular, was seen to be an inferior choice for MA because it is not damaging enough to really warrant inclusion in a chain.

 

I started playing around with adding some different attacks into this "optimal chain" to see if I could solve the problem of the timing hole. Pool powers like Air Superiority and Jump Kick I ruled out immediately, as they have DPA less than half of Storm Kick and significantly less than Thunder Kick. Then, for some reason I can't explain, I took a look at the most laughed-at, the most despised, the butt of most of the power related joke in City of Heroes, Brawl.

 

Imagine my shock to discover that, not only does Brawl have a DPA that puts it firmly in the same class as these "optimal" MA attacks, it is actually the highest DPA attack of the lot, with a DPA that is more than 50% higher than Storm Kick, the highest DPA attack in the entire Martial Arts powerset. On my character, Brawl has a DPA of 150.13 and Storm Kick has a DPA of 98.94.

 

So, what am I missing here? This seems a total no-brainer. On first glance, all you need to do is to flesh out the attack chain with a couple of Brawls, and not only do you maintain your "optimal" ST attack chain, you actually raise the damage potential considerably. It can't be that simple, can it? Has everyone's total contempt for Brawl made them overlook its possible utility in a situation like this? The thing is, this would mean really integrating the attack. We are talking six-slotting the power and putting a decent set of enhancements into it. Now, I can see why most powersets would not be attracted by Brawl as a regular attack. They use some kind of weapon and sheathing and unsheathing the weapon would destroy most of Brawl's utility. Of course, this doesn't apply to MA, which is all barehanded attacks anyway. Not only that, but Brawl's low-damage, ultra-fast recharge style is an almost perfect match for the other attacks in the MA set, nearly all of which are lower damage, quicker recharge type powers.

 

Tell me why I have never seen anyone using Brawl seriously as an attack (obviously SOMEONE somewhere is using it, but it seems to be almost universally ignored by the community at-large). Unless there is some compelling factor that I am missing here, I believe that my MA scrapper may be throwing a few punches along with her acrobatic kicks and backflips.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Just checked Mids to see the stats for brawl and did a bit of experimenting. The TLDR conclusion is that brawl does modestly more than 20 DPA without slotting or incarnates. It does modestly more than 100 DPA when slotted to maximize damage, after the incarnates most often included for pylon testing purposes are brought into consideration. More information below, for those who would like to review the details ...

(Looked into this hoping that stats for brawl would match up with the OP's description. But, that was not the case. Currently am confused.)

 

----------------------

Mids lists brawl as having a base of 22.52 damage for a scrapper with an arcanatime casting time of 1.056 seconds. It does not crit. 
 

Took T4 musculature core as the alpha incarnate and T4 reactive radial as the interface incarnate in Mids. Then six-slotted brawl and  inserted the following IOs ...

 

Hecatomb - damage, boosted to +5

Hecatomb - damage / endurance reduction, boosted to +5

Hecatomb - damage proc

+ 3 more damage procs for melee attacks (Mako's bite damage proc, gladiator's strike damage proc, and touch of death damage proc)

All of this added up to 128.4% added damage (derived from 152.66% added damage before enhancement diversification) + damage procs = 123.1 damage. That's modestly above 100 DPA after slotting to maximize damage.

Edited April 2 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Hjarki]

From what I can see, Brawl is a 0.68 scale attack in 1.056s. Thunder Kick is a 1.0 scale attack in 1.056s.

[Uun]

As stated above, your math is off. Brawl has less than half the DPA of Thunder Kick.

 

Not sure why you need to jump through hoops to create an attack chain with only 3 attacks. You're really not giving up much with an attack chain of Storm Kick>Crippling Axe Kick>Cobra Strike>Crane Kick in whatever order you like. 

[Haijinx]

32 minutes ago, Uun said:

As stated above, your math is off. Brawl has less than half the DPA of Thunder Kick.

 

Not sure why you need to jump through hoops to create an attack chain with only 3 attacks. You're really not giving up much with an attack chain of Storm Kick>Crippling Axe Kick>Cobra Strike>Crane Kick in whatever order you like. 

Plus it will look and sound cooler

 

Well except when you do Axe kick, usually I sacrifice efficiency for cool by going eagles claw. 

[djharr]

My math is off, you say. I am not doing any math. I am using the reported values of the powers as given me in-game BY the game, and in my combat logs. As I said, according to them, not me doing any kind of math, but simply the value written in the info tab of the power, the DPS of brawl is 150.13. The DPS of Storm Kick is 98.2. And the DPA of Thunder Kick is 60 something. Now, you tell me that Mids contradicts this. Who am I to believe?

 

[Uun]

26 minutes ago, djharr said:

My math is off, you say. I am not doing any math. I am using the reported values of the powers as given me in-game BY the game, and in my combat logs. As I said, according to them, not me doing any kind of math, but simply the value written in the info tab of the power, the DPS of brawl is 150.13. The DPS of Storm Kick is 98.2. And the DPA of Thunder Kick is 60 something. Now, you tell me that Mids contradicts this. Who am I to believe?

I see the 151.00 damage per activation time for Brawl in game but it makes no sense. The same screen shows that the power does 22.52 damage and has an activation time of 0.83s, which works out to 27.1 DPA. It's some kind of error.

 

Your best source for authoritative data is City of Data https://cod.uberguy.net/html/index.html

[bAss_ackwards]

Brawl is a very early game filler, and can be used as a set mule. Either of the Scrapper AT IOs will not be able to do anything for Brawl, and would put part of the attack chain using it at a lesser potential for damage output.

[Ston]

5 hours ago, djharr said:

Imagine my shock to discover that, not only does Brawl have a DPA that puts it firmly in the same class as these "optimal" MA attacks, it is actually the highest DPA attack of the lot, with a DPA that is more than 50% higher than Storm Kick, the highest DPA attack in the entire Martial Arts powerset. On my character, Brawl has a DPA of 150.13 and Storm Kick has a DPA of 98.94.

 

Storm Kick slotted with 5pc hecatomb (all but dam/rech):

*Assumes both ATOs are being used.

Brawl with same slotting:


I don't know where you are getting your numbers from.. but Brawl will NEVER be a good replacement for any attack in an attack chain.

[Videra]

Lmaaaao. Look at this dude thinking brawl is good.

[RobotLove]

I'm guessing the in-game tool tip for brawl is showing the numbers it would have with full fighting pool synergy. i.e. you would need to take boxing, kick, and crosspunch before you would actually see that number. 

 

Similar to how corruptors' tooltips are massively inflated due to scourge.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Actually, fighting pool synergies produce modest debuffs that apply to mobs, and not more damage. 

This is a simple case of the in-game UI giving a player bad information. Good detective work by Uun to look that over. 

[Duckbutler]

Some of the in game tooltips are massively F'ed up. Take a look at Sky Splitter (from the staff fighting set) on a tanker. The game thinks it has something like 450 DPA because it's adding the damage from all three stances as well as fiery embrace, and you may not even be a fiery aura tanker.

[Uun]

Already reported as a bug.

 

 

[SomeGuy]

This post is for real? I seriously thought this was a troll.