Ice Secondary Rework Call for Blasters

[Vanden]

The way I interpreted it was that changing sleeps to be like fear might require rebalancing (since sleeps have the advantage of having pretty obscene durations if slotted and go uninterrupted) and thus might alter how players use their utilities.

 

If it even worked the way I imagined it, slotting for Sleep would become a lot worse. Let's take a Sleep that currently lasts 15 seconds. If we converted it to Sleep-over-time (if that's even possible), it would become something like 5 ticks of 5-second sleeps, over 10 seconds. Unslotted and uninterrupted, that would still last 15 seconds. However, with 100% sleep enhancement, the original version would last 30 seconds, while the Sleep-over-time version would last only 20 seconds. So it'd be a buff in one way, but a nerf in another.

[Leogunner]

The way I interpreted it was that changing sleeps to be like fear might require rebalancing (since sleeps have the advantage of having pretty obscene durations if slotted and go uninterrupted) and thus might alter how players use their utilities.

 

If it even worked the way I imagined it, slotting for Sleep would become a lot worse. Let's take a Sleep that currently lasts 15 seconds. If we converted it to Sleep-over-time (if that's even possible), it would become something like 5 ticks of 5-second sleeps, over 10 seconds. Unslotted and uninterrupted, that would still last 15 seconds. However, with 100% sleep enhancement, the original version would last 30 seconds, while the Sleep-over-time version would last only 20 seconds. So it'd be a buff in one way, but a nerf in another.

 

Then the question would be why bother with it at all?  Players that use and slot sleep likely get their money's worth and this is only pandering to players who already have a full course of other control options available.  This is in a similar position (although not as hotly discussed) as knockback.  At best, such a suggestion would be best implemented as some sort of trade-off option like a slot enhancement that might cast sleep on the target again.

 

Something not mentioned regarding sleep is how it is stacked.  Blaster Frozen Aura is one of those sleeps that don't cause damage thus it can actually stack with other sleeps to put resistant foes to sleep.  Personally, I think an easy QoL fix for Sleep effects would be removing "damage ends the effect" and just have the magnitude remain but the effect suppressed.  You could then create some sort of effect where if the target doesn't act (use their endurance), they can fall back to sleep if the effect hasn't expired.

[sturmcrow]

I'm a blaster, so I think range and don't take both melee powers; however, it's crazy to think that you will never be in melee range of foes, particularly at lower levels where shiny-seekers seem to find themselves.  For this, I not only pick up Sands of Mu from the P2W vendor, but I opt for ice sword.  If a baddie gets within melee range of me (and I'm on the ground), I'll drop ice patch and giggle while the biggest baddest baddies flop around and then take them out with my ice sword (or my range attacks, which work equally well at short range).

 

The problem with the melee attacks in Ice Manipulation (and some other blaster sets) is they're pointless. Ice Blast deals 102 damage on an 8 second recharge. Frozen Fists deals 91 damage on an 8 second recharge. It isnt needed to fill an attack chain, so why are you in melee to deal less damage? Energy Melee gets this mostly right. Bone Smasher has a 14 second recharge, but deals 144 damage.

 

Blaps need to have a longer recharge and hit harder to make the risk of entering melee worthwhile. Particularly given the changes to snipes, the blaps need to be re-examined to make them useful. Dealing the equivalent of a tier 2 blast in melee range is poor design.

 

At minimum, the following powers need changes to recharge and damage to give them a niche.

 

Ice - Frozen Fists, Ice Sword

Martial Assault - Storm Kick

Mental - Mind Probe

Ninja Training -Sting of the Wasp, Golden Dragonfly

 

Others might need tweaks, but these are so redundant and low damage as to be waste of power choices.

 

I agree, I think all the Manipulation sets need a rework to replace the melee powers with ranged (attacks/debuffs) or buff abilities. Ice sword etc are not really suitable for a ranged dps Archetype. There is plenty of inspiration in comics to come up with non-melee powers.

 

2nd level could be replaced with a Ranged Minor DOT -SPD -Fly ; snaring runners or attackers is useful and makes sense for ice

4th level could be a weaker Block of Ice; maybe change damage value and raise recharge time

10th level, move Shiver to here; Not sure why it is so late in the Ice Manipulation set, it is a cone slow

28th level, give them Arctic Air (I think this is better than Chilling Embrace but if people prefer that maybe improve it and put it here)

35th level, Glacier with a much longer cooldown than the Ice Control version or maybe an AOE Immobilize -Recharge if people think an AOE hold is too good.

 

 

Note I dont play /Ice Blaster but I did play several blaster in live and playing a Beam/Devices one now and I would think the manipulation powers should have similar utility

 

[Vanden]

I agree, I think all the Manipulation sets need a rework to replace the melee powers with ranged (attacks/debuffs) or buff abilities. Ice sword etc are not really suitable for a ranged dps Archetype. There is plenty of inspiration in comics to come up with non-melee powers.

 

Blasters are not a ranged DPS archetype, they are a DPS archetype. That means DPS at any range. Melee attacks are not a problem, the problem is them not being worth the risk.

[sturmcrow]

I agree, I think all the Manipulation sets need a rework to replace the melee powers with ranged (attacks/debuffs) or buff abilities. Ice sword etc are not really suitable for a ranged dps Archetype. There is plenty of inspiration in comics to come up with non-melee powers.

 

Blasters are not a ranged DPS archetype, they are a DPS archetype. That means DPS at any range. Melee attacks are not a problem, the problem is them not being worth the risk.

 

I agree they are not worth the risk, I disagree that the AT isnt Ranged focus, the Primary power pool are Ranged attacks. Scrappers Primary pool is Melee attacks. Sure you can play a blaster with melee attacks but that doesnt fit the overall design behind Blasters, glass cannons.

[Leogunner]

I agree, I think all the Manipulation sets need a rework to replace the melee powers with ranged (attacks/debuffs) or buff abilities. Ice sword etc are not really suitable for a ranged dps Archetype. There is plenty of inspiration in comics to come up with non-melee powers.

 

Blasters are not a ranged DPS archetype, they are a DPS archetype. That means DPS at any range. Melee attacks are not a problem, the problem is them not being worth the risk.

 

I agree they are not worth the risk, I disagree that the AT isnt Ranged focus, the Primary power pool are Ranged attacks. Scrappers Primary pool is Melee attacks. Sure you can play a blaster with melee attacks but that doesnt fit the overall design behind Blasters, glass cannons.

 

But the Blast sets aren't pure ranged.

[pattycake]

Seeing how many enemies have range/melee, the blaster is in danger no matter what distance (mostly melee range) I think if a tanker is present the Blaster will mostly safe with some exceptions of AoE, and if I recall correctly (Ive spent more time reading the forums than actually playing) very few AoE can intentionally be lethal.

[Vanden]

The way I interpreted it was that changing sleeps to be like fear might require rebalancing (since sleeps have the advantage of having pretty obscene durations if slotted and go uninterrupted) and thus might alter how players use their utilities.

 

If it even worked the way I imagined it, slotting for Sleep would become a lot worse. Let's take a Sleep that currently lasts 15 seconds. If we converted it to Sleep-over-time (if that's even possible), it would become something like 5 ticks of 5-second sleeps, over 10 seconds. Unslotted and uninterrupted, that would still last 15 seconds. However, with 100% sleep enhancement, the original version would last 30 seconds, while the Sleep-over-time version would last only 20 seconds. So it'd be a buff in one way, but a nerf in another.

 

Then the question would be why bother with it at all?  Players that use and slot sleep likely get their money's worth and this is only pandering to players who already have a full course of other control options available.  This is in a similar position (although not as hotly discussed) as knockback.  At best, such a suggestion would be best implemented as some sort of trade-off option like a slot enhancement that might cast sleep on the target again.

 

Something not mentioned regarding sleep is how it is stacked.  Blaster Frozen Aura is one of those sleeps that don't cause damage thus it can actually stack with other sleeps to put resistant foes to sleep.  Personally, I think an easy QoL fix for Sleep effects would be removing "damage ends the effect" and just have the magnitude remain but the effect suppressed.  You could then create some sort of effect where if the target doesn't act (use their endurance), they can fall back to sleep if the effect hasn't expired.

 

Why bother? Because it makes Sleep a more reliable method of control. It wouldn't be appropriate for every sleep power, but I think it would work well for Frozen Aura.

[Leogunner]

The way I interpreted it was that changing sleeps to be like fear might require rebalancing (since sleeps have the advantage of having pretty obscene durations if slotted and go uninterrupted) and thus might alter how players use their utilities.

 

If it even worked the way I imagined it, slotting for Sleep would become a lot worse. Let's take a Sleep that currently lasts 15 seconds. If we converted it to Sleep-over-time (if that's even possible), it would become something like 5 ticks of 5-second sleeps, over 10 seconds. Unslotted and uninterrupted, that would still last 15 seconds. However, with 100% sleep enhancement, the original version would last 30 seconds, while the Sleep-over-time version would last only 20 seconds. So it'd be a buff in one way, but a nerf in another.

 

Then the question would be why bother with it at all?  Players that use and slot sleep likely get their money's worth and this is only pandering to players who already have a full course of other control options available.  This is in a similar position (although not as hotly discussed) as knockback.  At best, such a suggestion would be best implemented as some sort of trade-off option like a slot enhancement that might cast sleep on the target again.

 

Something not mentioned regarding sleep is how it is stacked.  Blaster Frozen Aura is one of those sleeps that don't cause damage thus it can actually stack with other sleeps to put resistant foes to sleep.  Personally, I think an easy QoL fix for Sleep effects would be removing "damage ends the effect" and just have the magnitude remain but the effect suppressed.  You could then create some sort of effect where if the target doesn't act (use their endurance), they can fall back to sleep if the effect hasn't expired.

 

Why bother? Because it makes Sleep a more reliable method of control. It wouldn't be appropriate for every sleep power, but I think it would work well for Frozen Aura.

 

Right, I forgot we were talking about Frozen Aura rather than sleeps in general.

 

I suppose it could be a possible utility to change for the manipulation set.

[sturmcrow]

I agree, I think all the Manipulation sets need a rework to replace the melee powers with ranged (attacks/debuffs) or buff abilities. Ice sword etc are not really suitable for a ranged dps Archetype. There is plenty of inspiration in comics to come up with non-melee powers.

 

Blasters are not a ranged DPS archetype, they are a DPS archetype. That means DPS at any range. Melee attacks are not a problem, the problem is them not being worth the risk.

 

I agree they are not worth the risk, I disagree that the AT isnt Ranged focus, the Primary power pool are Ranged attacks. Scrappers Primary pool is Melee attacks. Sure you can play a blaster with melee attacks but that doesnt fit the overall design behind Blasters, glass cannons.

 

But the Blast sets aren't pure ranged.

 

Really? Could have fooled me, I just looked at all the Primary power pools and they are ranged powers. Even the CoH site says:

Hit Points: Low

Damage: High

Primary Power Category - Ranged

Secondary Power Category - Support

 

That sounds like a Ranged DPS type to me *shrug*

[Leogunner]

I agree, I think all the Manipulation sets need a rework to replace the melee powers with ranged (attacks/debuffs) or buff abilities. Ice sword etc are not really suitable for a ranged dps Archetype. There is plenty of inspiration in comics to come up with non-melee powers.

 

Blasters are not a ranged DPS archetype, they are a DPS archetype. That means DPS at any range. Melee attacks are not a problem, the problem is them not being worth the risk.

 

I agree they are not worth the risk, I disagree that the AT isnt Ranged focus, the Primary power pool are Ranged attacks. Scrappers Primary pool is Melee attacks. Sure you can play a blaster with melee attacks but that doesnt fit the overall design behind Blasters, glass cannons.

 

But the Blast sets aren't pure ranged.

 

Really? Could have fooled me, I just looked at all the Primary power pools and they are ranged powers. Even the CoH site says:

Hit Points: Low

Damage: High

Primary Power Category - Ranged

Secondary Power Category - Support

 

That sounds like a Ranged DPS type to me *shrug*

 

Tell me the range of Blackstar, Hail of Bullets, Short Circuit, Nova, Inferno, Psychic Wail, Irradiate, Atomic Blast or Dreadful Wail not to mention the various other cones or shortened ranged attacks of the sets.

 

But I understand you were being intentionally facetious to try and make a gotcha comment.  The point I was trying to make is, your assessment that their primary is ranged damage = only being ranged DPS flies in the face of logic when you look at their secondary which clearly has melee ranged attacks too.

 

Also, it's logical that someone like Blaster will be drawn into close range because their team's support will likely be centered on mid-to-close range.

[sturmcrow]

 

Tell me the range of Blackstar, Hail of Bullets, Short Circuit, Nova, Inferno, Psychic Wail, Irradiate, Atomic Blast or Dreadful Wail not to mention the various other cones or shortened ranged attacks of the sets.

 

But I understand you were being intentionally facetious to try and make a gotcha comment.  The point I was trying to make is, your assessment that their primary is ranged damage = only being ranged DPS flies in the face of logic when you look at their secondary which clearly has melee ranged attacks too.

 

Also, it's logical that someone like Blaster will be drawn into close range because their team's support will likely be centered on mid-to-close range.

 

 

Hopefully shortened that quote string, about to head to bed but I was not trying to make a gotcha comment. The Archetype was listed as a Ranged one even in CoH literature. Sure they have short range powers but short is not the same as melee. Yes the secondary has some melee powers (of which most are pointless compared to the Primary nukes). The melees are inefficient and not really fitting, there are better ways to make a character that uses ranged and melee hence why in the suggestion thread for them I suggested (as have others) that the melee powers be replaced. I don't want to argue about semantics, not my intent, I was just trying to say that the majority of the live Power pools are ranged and not melee, and that actually being Support, as listed on the CoH page for Blasters would be better and more useful power pool choices in their Secondary.

[Vanden]

 

Tell me the range of Blackstar, Hail of Bullets, Short Circuit, Nova, Inferno, Psychic Wail, Irradiate, Atomic Blast or Dreadful Wail not to mention the various other cones or shortened ranged attacks of the sets.

 

But I understand you were being intentionally facetious to try and make a gotcha comment.  The point I was trying to make is, your assessment that their primary is ranged damage = only being ranged DPS flies in the face of logic when you look at their secondary which clearly has melee ranged attacks too.

 

Also, it's logical that someone like Blaster will be drawn into close range because their team's support will likely be centered on mid-to-close range.

 

 

Hopefully shortened that quote string, about to head to bed but I was not trying to make a gotcha comment. The Archetype was listed as a Ranged one even in CoH literature. Sure they have short range powers but short is not the same as melee. Yes the secondary has some melee powers (of which most are pointless compared to the Primary nukes). The melees are inefficient and not really fitting, there are better ways to make a character that uses ranged and melee hence why in the suggestion thread for them I suggested (as have others) that the melee powers be replaced. I don't want to argue about semantics, not my intent, I was just trying to say that the majority of the live Power pools are ranged and not melee, and that actually being Support, as listed on the CoH page for Blasters would be better and more useful power pool choices in their Secondary.

 

"Support" could literally mean anything in this context, and indeed it seems to, as you can find virtually every kind of power in Blaster secondaries. There's no reason melee attacks should be excluded.

[malonkey1]

 

Tell me the range of Blackstar, Hail of Bullets, Short Circuit, Nova, Inferno, Psychic Wail, Irradiate, Atomic Blast or Dreadful Wail not to mention the various other cones or shortened ranged attacks of the sets.

 

But I understand you were being intentionally facetious to try and make a gotcha comment.  The point I was trying to make is, your assessment that their primary is ranged damage = only being ranged DPS flies in the face of logic when you look at their secondary which clearly has melee ranged attacks too.

 

Also, it's logical that someone like Blaster will be drawn into close range because their team's support will likely be centered on mid-to-close range.

 

 

Hopefully shortened that quote string, about to head to bed but I was not trying to make a gotcha comment. The Archetype was listed as a Ranged one even in CoH literature. Sure they have short range powers but short is not the same as melee. Yes the secondary has some melee powers (of which most are pointless compared to the Primary nukes). The melees are inefficient and not really fitting, there are better ways to make a character that uses ranged and melee hence why in the suggestion thread for them I suggested (as have others) that the melee powers be replaced. I don't want to argue about semantics, not my intent, I was just trying to say that the majority of the live Power pools are ranged and not melee, and that actually being Support, as listed on the CoH page for Blasters would be better and more useful power pool choices in their Secondary.

 

"Support" could literally mean anything in this context, and indeed it seems to, as you can find virtually every kind of power in Blaster secondaries. There's no reason melee attacks should be excluded.

 

Yeah, at this point, Manipulation sets are pretty much whatever they want to be. I could see a manip set with a taunt, a hold, two +Def auras, a click +Range, the deed to a small villa in Austria and a rubber chicken and think, "Yup, good ol' Villa-Chicken Manipulation."

[Leogunner]

 

Tell me the range of Blackstar, Hail of Bullets, Short Circuit, Nova, Inferno, Psychic Wail, Irradiate, Atomic Blast or Dreadful Wail not to mention the various other cones or shortened ranged attacks of the sets.

 

But I understand you were being intentionally facetious to try and make a gotcha comment.  The point I was trying to make is, your assessment that their primary is ranged damage = only being ranged DPS flies in the face of logic when you look at their secondary which clearly has melee ranged attacks too.

 

Also, it's logical that someone like Blaster will be drawn into close range because their team's support will likely be centered on mid-to-close range.

 

 

Hopefully shortened that quote string, about to head to bed but I was not trying to make a gotcha comment. The Archetype was listed as a Ranged one even in CoH literature. Sure they have short range powers but short is not the same as melee. Yes the secondary has some melee powers (of which most are pointless compared to the Primary nukes). The melees are inefficient and not really fitting, there are better ways to make a character that uses ranged and melee hence why in the suggestion thread for them I suggested (as have others) that the melee powers be replaced. I don't want to argue about semantics, not my intent, I was just trying to say that the majority of the live Power pools are ranged and not melee, and that actually being Support, as listed on the CoH page for Blasters would be better and more useful power pool choices in their Secondary.

 

Unfortunately, you're years too late with the whole Blaster identity crisis schtick.

 

No, you're not going to get team heals and buffs in your secondary, they already have debuffs and controls and the inherent benefits from having more attacks to fuel it, including those melee attacks.  Next you gonna tell me their inherent power is wonky too?  Been there, done that.

 

Anyway, you sort of made it a semantics argument when you said "Ice sword etc are not really suitable for a ranged dps Archetype." Because Blaster isn't a ranged DPS archetype, they are a straight up DPS archetype.  They even have good damage mods for melee attacks.  Where on the other hand, they don't have good mods for buffs and putting more ranged attacks in the secondary is redundant.