enhancements Proposal: Modify IO Scaling and Exemplar Scaling post SO purchasable at level 1

[Faeriemage]

In a time before SOs could be purchased at level 1, having the level 10 IOs be significantly worse than an SO made sense. In this post SO availability world, however, I think it is more than time for a change. This change would also encompass Enhancement Scaling when Exemplaring down for teams or missions, since the old scaling was also implemented with TO/DO/SO movement as leveling.

Suggestion Part 1: (No, this isn't about the IOs yet, but is important for that portion of the suggestion) Turn off all TO/DO/SO/HO scaling completely when exemplaring, whether in a team or through the flashback system, or what have you. Any time you are reduced in level, leave these enhancements alone. They keep whatever max level value that they had before the level shrink.

 

Suggestion Part 2: Modify the base IO value to be closer to SO levels at level 10, while leaving the same max level value at 50. I would personally suggest starting at an A schedule enhancement value of 30% at level 10. Exemplar scaling would then be adjusted to reflect these values.

[Psyonico]

Re: part 1... So, make level 50s even more powerful when exemplaring? Doesn't sound good... Can you give a balance reason for this?

 

Re: part 2... Again, sounds like power creep.  You're proposing a buff for no reason other than "I want it".

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, Faeriemage said:

Suggestion Part 1: (No, this isn't about the IOs yet, but is important for that portion of the suggestion) Turn off all TO/DO/SO/HO scaling completely when exemplaring, whether in a team or through the flashback system, or what have you. Any time you are reduced in level, leave these enhancements alone. They keep whatever max level value that they had before the level shrink.

TOs, DOs, and SOs don't scale. If you are more than 3 levels below or above their level, they simply don't work. (Edit: I don't count how their bonus degrades as you level until you are at least 4 levels above at which point they stop working.) This is intentional. It means that there is a reason to slot a low level IO even though it doesn't give as much of a boost as an SO, because it will always give that boost regardless of how much you out-leveled the IO by. And the DOs and SOs being available through drops means you can keep slotting replacements if you get them.

 

19 minutes ago, Faeriemage said:

Suggestion Part 2: Modify the base IO value to be closer to SO levels at level 10, while leaving the same max level value at 50. I would personally suggest starting at an A schedule enhancement value of 30% at level 10. Exemplar scaling would then be adjusted to reflect these values.

The advantage of DOs and SOs are you can get them from drops and purchase them easily due to their availability. The advantage of IOs is that though you have to get the materials to craft them, once they are crafted and slotted, they always give you their listed bonus no matter how much you level up compared to the IO. Please do not try to make all the enhancements generically equal/the same.

 

Edited September 12 by Rudra

[Faeriemage]

If you have an SO slotted, and exemplar down below the level at which you can slot an SO, then the SO will be treated as a DO, or TO depending on the level that you are exemplaring down to. This no longer makes any real sense, since you could have purchased an SO in those level ranges, and reducing their effectiveness still is simply because, in a prior build, it made more sense. This is not making 50s more effective, it is making ANYONE higher level than 25 more effective when dropping down. Or, a better way to put it, it is making the level 25+ just as effective as their at level counterpart, and not punishing them for dropping down to help.

 

As far as making them "generically the same" there are extra steps to making an IO, and always will be. This is not a "Leveling up" equivalency, this is a "scaling down" equivalency. Currently, there is no contest in the way that SOs scale compared to IOs. I have, in the past, created a second build for my level 50s, filled with just SOs, that is otherwise identical to my primary build, just so I can do flashback missions. I don't think that we should be required to do that, just to have a viable build when doing those lower level missions, just to keep to an ideal that no longer makes sense in the current build of the game. This isn't just me stating "because I wants it precious". This is a case of it simply makes sense with the state of the game as it currently stands.

 

I don't hear you suggesting that they go back to only allowing SOs to be purchased at level 25, so why should they keep IOs at the same levels they were before you could purchase SOs at a much lower level?

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, Faeriemage said:

I have, in the past, created a second build for my level 50s, filled with just SOs, that is otherwise identical to my primary build, just so I can do flashback missions.

If you are using set IOs, you can just attune them and they will scale down with you without needing to make a dedicated exemplar build. You will still lose set bonuses if you exemplar more than 3 levels below the set's minimum level, but you can still just have 1 build if desired.

 

30 minutes ago, Faeriemage said:

This is a case of it simply makes sense with the state of the game as it currently stands.

And how does your proposal make sense? There are advantages to DOs/SOs vs IOs on both sides of the table. That gives players choices to play with. And your proposal would make the enhancements more homogeneous for no reason other than being more powerful than you already are with powers available from 5 levels above what you are playing at and with all your enhancement slots available as opposed to just the powers and enhancement slots you earned leveling up to that point for your current combat level while being exemplared. So, you are still asking to be even more powerful than we already are for content that can't even keep up with us at level.

[Luminara]

10 minutes ago, Faeriemage said:

If you have an SO slotted, and exemplar down below the level at which you can slot an SO, then the SO will be treated as a DO, or TO depending on the level that you are exemplaring down to. This no longer makes any real sense, since you could have purchased an SO in those level ranges

 

But you didn't have the slots in which those enhancements could be placed, or the powers where you put those slots.  The purpose of exemplar scaling is to account for those extra slots, and the extra powers available to characters when exemplared.  It's not going away.

[Faeriemage]

31 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

But you didn't have the slots in which those enhancements could be placed, or the powers where you put those slots.  The purpose of exemplar scaling is to account for those extra slots, and the extra powers available to characters when exemplared.  It's not going away.

That would make sense as the reason for this, if it was a general reduction in power for SOs, but this isn't the case. SOs don't reduce until level 25. I have never heard anyone stating the reason for the reduction is to make up for not having slots. If that were the case, just removing slots makes more sense. Especially since it punishes single slotting much more the current way than it does someone who multi-slots (IE single Accuracy in a power vs. 3 Damages in the same power, the Accuracy of the power is affected more than the Damage of the same.

 

Exemplaring already removes the powers (giving you at max +5 levels worth of powers).  At no point does it make sense that you are trying to balance an Exemplar to a non-exemplar. You should be balancing Exemplars against each other, and non-exemplars against each other. There has always been, and will always be, strange differences in how the exemplar/sidekick system works in relation to their natural leveled counterparts.

 

I am not suggesting we need to fix that, since no one else is talking about it. That being said, there is a lot of content that forces exemplar upon everyone involved. Every mission in Flashback for example, since to be involved in a flashback mission you have to be at or above the level range of the arc to be attempted.  Sure, you don't have the slots to fit the same number of enhancements into your build at level 12 as at level 50. That being said, you can still slot a single Accuracy enhancement in a power at both levels. Unfortunately, that single Accuracy enhancement for your level 50 will be, at max, 1/4th as effective at level 12 as the level 12s single Accuracy enhancement.

 

This is a problem that has existed since live. They implemented a simple fix without seeming to care much about the ramifications of said fix, especially since it made sense at the time. IO enhancements then followed the same formula, even if it made less sense at certain level ranges.

[Faeriemage]

58 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And how does your proposal make sense? There are advantages to DOs/SOs vs IOs on both sides of the table. That gives players choices to play with. And your proposal would make the enhancements more homogeneous for no reason other than being more powerful than you already are with powers available from 5 levels above what you are playing at and with all your enhancement slots available as opposed to just the powers and enhancement slots you earned leveling up to that point for your current combat level while being exemplared. So, you are still asking to be even more powerful than we already are for content that can't even keep up with us at level.

My proposal makes no changes to how they work under normal play, save for at the low end. It would make IOs more in line with the changes implemented into the current build of the game. Of course, I may be the odd duck out here, but I stop slotting any SOs as soon as I hit level 30. It simply isn't worth it. A) SOs are a continuous time and money sink after that point, and B) IOs get more and more powerful in relation to SOs as you level. This is already in the game. DOs and SOs only exist for the rich and lazy IMO. That isn't about 'choice' that is all bout how much effort slotting IOs take. There is no benefit, save exemplaring, to slot an SO into a power above level 30.

Edited September 12 by Faeriemage

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Faeriemage said:

My proposal makes no changes to how they work under normal play, save for at the low end. It would make IOs more in line with the changes implemented into the current build of the game. Of course, I may be the odd duck out here, but I stop slotting any SOs as soon as I hit level 30. It simply isn't worth it. A) SOs are a continuous time and money sink after that point, and B) IOs get more and more powerful in relation to SOs as you level. This is already in the game. DOs and SOs only exist for the rich and lazy IMO. That isn't about 'choice' that is all bout how much effort slotting IOs take. There is no benefit, save exemplaring, to slot an SO into a power above level 30.

You are still ignoring the points.

 

Point 1: You may think it is frivolous or a waste to slot SOs above level 30. You may think that only the rich and/or lazy bother with SOs above 30. However, that does not change that players have that option to do so. That is their choice. Because that choice exists for them to make. And that choice gives benefits and consequences for if the player does so or if the player does not do so depending on what the player does. Consequences and considerations they have to weigh in deciding between SOs, non-set IOs, and set IOs. And indeed, if you go back and look at the other enhancement threads on the Suggestions and Feedback forum, there are players on these forums that play with SOs and only SOs even at level 50. Just like there are players like me that slot generic IOs into our powers as early as level 7 even though SOs provide better boosts. That is our choice. Because the game gives us that choice. And homogenizing the enhancements like you are asking to do murders that choice. Why bother slotting non-set IOs at all if SOs will randomly drop for us and do the same thing non-set IOs do for us except with better boosts? Even with the IOs being boosted to give SO equivalent buffs, there is still no reason to ever slot non-set IOs because you can readily get SOs but you have to go craft IOs or get them from the AH from someone else who crafted them. This renders non-set IOs obsolete.

 

Point 2: Scaling exists, like @Luminara said and I am trying to explain to you, because when you exemplar down you still retain powers from 5 levels higher than you exemplared down to. Powers you would not have while leveling up. And you lose not a single enhancement slot no matter how far down you exemplar. This means you can team with a level 1 character and your level 1 power can still be 6-slotted with enhancements to that level 1 character's 1 enhancement slot. While still retaining powers up to level 6, which that level 1 character does not have yet. So when you exemplar down, you are already far stronger for the content you are doing than you would be if you were playing it at level. And your proposal would make exemplared characters even more powerful for no other reason than because you want it.

[Psyonico]

34 minutes ago, Faeriemage said:

SOs don't reduce until level 25.

I don't believe thus is accurate

[Luminara]

51 minutes ago, Faeriemage said:

I have never heard anyone stating the reason for the reduction is to make up for not having slots.

 

 

---

"The functionality of Exemplaring can not take into account when you slotted powers, nor can we dictate which Enhancements to keep if we were to reduce the number of slots you have.
 

Because of this, we have implemented a system with Exemplaring that reduces the overall effectiveness of your Enhancements based on the level you Exemplared to. This is meant to loosely simulate the fact that you would have fewer Enhancements at any given level.
 

In addition, this reduction in power does not take into account the "power jumps" that occur for regular players when they hit 12 to 15 and 22 to 25 (as they move from TO to DO to SO Enhancements). Instead it is a smooth curve across the levels. This was done on purpose so that there wasn't "ideal Exemplar-to Levels". For example we didn't want people saying "Exemplaring to 22 is WAY better than exemplaring to 21!" Which would have been the case had we not put in the smooth curve.
 

Is it an exact science? No, and it was never meant to be. Exemplaring was an extension of the Sidekicking system (which does not increase Enhancement strengths by the way). We realized we would need to reduce Enhancements or else Exemplared characters would simply outshine their Aspirants because they would be better slotted.

—Positron, July 7, 2006"

---

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Exemplar_Effects_on_Enhancements

 

/thread

[tidge]

I'm starting to think that Homecoming's changes in the area of "SO" have sent all the wrong signals.