Holds in PVP

[Gravitus]

I was inspired by another topic I was reading earlier in this forum. Somone wanted "scrap snipes" or snipes in general to get a nerf which most people seemed opposed to.

 

So, I'm wondering. If we are ok with people getting 1-2 shotted in PVP, what's the harm in restoring holds to their former glory before their massive nerf in live? Holds are sort of a joke in pvp compared to what they once were. 

[Greycat]

People would have to actually PVP some amount.  Yes, I know there *are* PVPers out there, but I don't really see them saying much - I'd assume they're used to how things are and have adapted (and probably generally run teams, which balances things out about as well as it can.)

 

(Note. Not saying this as someone who "hates PVP" or anything. I've gotten into one or two good scrums while here, and used to be fairly involved in the zones on live. Some of my favourite memories or stories are PVP related. But... that's the thing. I've gotten into one or two fights... despite being in the zones since coming to HC. I almost never see anyone.)

[Rudra]

To the best of my knowledge, holds in PvP had their durations reduced because mez protection got yanked in PvP and reduced to just mez resistance. If you want holds restored, then everything will need to be restored. (Which I am fine with.) And that returns the game to rock-paper-scissors PvP were melees stomp controls, controls stomp range, and range (most likely) stomps melee.

 

Edit: PvP in this game has always been FotM. Someone finds something that works every well, and everyone follows suit. Then someone finds a counter and everyone follows suit. Then someone develops a better method and everyone follows suit. You think the snipes are new to CoX PvP? Back on Live it became mandatory to have layered stealth if you wanted to enter a PvP zone for any reason. In PvP, it's a game of developing counters to what is being used against you.

 

Edited September 25 by Rudra
Edited to correct "get" to "got".

[Gravitus]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

To the best of my knowledge, holds in PvP had their durations reduced because mez protection got yanked in PvP and reduced to just mez resistance. If you want holds restored, then everything will need to be restored. (Which I am fine with.) And that returns the game to rock-paper-scissors PvP were melees stomp controls, controls stomp range, and range (most likely) stomps melee.

 

Edit: PvP in this game has always been FotM. Someone finds something that works every well, and everyone follows suit. Then someone finds a counter and everyone follows suit. Then someone develops a better method and everyone follows suit. You think the snipes are new to CoX PvP? Back on Live it became mandatory to have layered stealth if you wanted to enter a PvP zone for any reason. In PvP, it's a game of developing counters to what is being used against you.

 

I actually liked PVP a lot before it was revamped on live...the re-vamp made controller types pretty much worthless.....atleast with the old version every AT could pwn some other AT...(Rock, paper, scissors) like you said. And teams made it even more interesting. I'm guessing old mez mechanics were "too good" when it came to teaming? But even so...you have so many ways to break mez (break frees and powers) that didn't exist when they nerfed mez into oblivion. 

Edited September 25 by Gravitus

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

But even so...you have so many ways to break mez (break frees and powers) that didn't exist when they nerfed mez into oblivion. 

Yes, they did exist. Whether you are talking about Break Frees or the Iron Wills that preceded it and had to be used in advance, there were always inspiration responses to mezzes.

[shortguy on indom]

• 2-SECOND HOLDS ARE NOT ENOUGH YOU SAY?
• BEFORE THAT CHANGE, WHEN THEY LASTED LONGER THAN THAT... YOUR PREY WAS STILL SPIKED W/IN 2 SEC.
• SO DONNO ABOUT THIS IDEA.

[Shin Magmus]

Tony Danza Held me closely, then I got spiked down and he said GG.

[Gravitus]

14 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

• 2-SECOND HOLDS ARE NOT ENOUGH YOU SAY?
• BEFORE THAT CHANGE, WHEN THEY LASTED LONGER THAN THAT... YOUR PREY WAS STILL SPIKED W/IN 2 SEC.
• SO DONNO ABOUT THIS IDEA.

A controller doesn't have the damage output to kill anyone in 2 seconds and you generally have to stack holds to get those 2 seconds. By then you're already dead or they've used a travel power/stealth power to escape.  Not to mention, if you land a 2 second hold, the pvp zone mechanic automatically makes them immune to future holds for 15 seconds....holds are a joke in pvp. 

Edited September 26 by Gravitus

[Gravitus]

17 hours ago, Rudra said:

Yes, they did exist. Whether you are talking about Break Frees or the Iron Wills that preceded it and had to be used in advance, there were always inspiration responses to mezzes.

break frees came after the mez nerf in pvp.....iron wills were lackluster because you had to use them prior to being held/mezzed which is why i suspect they got replaced. 

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Gravitus said:

22 hours ago, Rudra said:

Yes, they did exist. Whether you are talking about Break Frees or the Iron Wills that preceded it and had to be used in advance, there were always inspiration responses to mezzes.

break frees came after the mez nerf in pvp.....iron wills were lackluster because you had to use them prior to being held/mezzed which is why i suspect they got replaced. 

Isn't that what my post you are quoting says? And my point isn't how viable they were, my point is that they existed. (Edit again: Yes, Iron Wills sucked, which is why they were replaced with Breakfrees. However, I never met a PvP'er that lacked a mez protection power that didn't enter a PvP zone with a tray full of the large Iron Wills that they kept using [at 4 minutes duration each] until they were done or needed to exit to get more.)

 

(Edit: Your post also said there weren't any powers that resisted mez before mezzes were nerfed. And that is flat out wrong. Scrappers and Tankers got mez protection powers from the get go.)

 

Edited September 26 by Rudra

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Gravitus said:

A controller doesn't have the damage output to kill anyone in 2 seconds and you generally have to stack holds to get those 2 seconds.

Teams did and still do.

 

4 hours ago, Gravitus said:

Not to mention, if you land a 2 second hold, the pvp zone mechanic automatically makes them immune to future holds for 15 seconds....holds are a joke in pvp. 

Really? I was not aware of this. The last time I encountered someone in a PvP zone, they held me, the hold wore off and I started to try to escape and they held me again over and over until I was dead.

[Gravitus]

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Isn't that what my post you are quoting says? And my point isn't how viable they were, my point is that they existed. (Edit again: Yes, Iron Wills sucked, which is why they were replaced with Breakfrees. However, I never met a PvP'er that lacked a mez protection power that didn't enter a PvP zone with a tray full of the large Iron Wills that they kept using [at 4 minutes duration each] until they were done or needed to exit to get more.)

 

(Edit: Your post also said there weren't any powers that resisted mez before mezzes were nerfed. And that is flat out wrong. Scrappers and Tankers got mez protection powers from the get go.)

Let me clarify, unless you had some sort of mez protection in your primary power-sets you were kinda screwed, but with break frees, epic powers and temp powers, I can't see a good reason the massive mez nerf should remain in place. Simply put, there are more answers to mez now then there were when the nerf went into effect. 

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Really? I was not aware of this. The last time I encountered someone in a PvP zone, they held me, the hold wore off and I started to try to escape and they held me again over and over until I was dead.

 

Taken staight from the wiki

 

"

Status Effect & Knockback Suppression

Every time a character recovers from a Hold, Immobilize, Disorient, Sleep, or Fear status, that character becomes immune to all five of those effects from other players for 15 seconds. Every time a character suffers a Knockdown, Knockback, or Knockup effect, that character becomes immune to all three of those effects from other players for 10 seconds. These two timers are independent. It should be noted that Confuse effects, while technically mezzes, are on a separate 15-second timer than the other mezzes listed above.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

Taken staight from the wiki

 

"

Status Effect & Knockback Suppression

Every time a character recovers from a Hold, Immobilize, Disorient, Sleep, or Fear status, that character becomes immune to all five of those effects from other players for 15 seconds. Every time a character suffers a Knockdown, Knockback, or Knockup effect, that character becomes immune to all three of those effects from other players for 10 seconds. These two timers are independent. It should be noted that Confuse effects, while technically mezzes, are on a separate 15-second timer than the other mezzes listed above.

Thanks. As I said, I was unaware of that. So my question is, how did that Controller Hold me to death then?

[Gravitus]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Thanks. As I said, I was unaware of that. So my question is, how did that Controller Hold me to death then?

My guess is your mez protection was so low that you might have been in the same hold longer than 2 seconds...or perhaps it was a combo of confuse and a hold since they are on 2 separate timers?  Can't say because I wasn't there. What I can tell you is I have a fully optimized controller for PVP, and I can rarely ever kill anyone 1v1. I've definitely not been able to hold anyone to death. 

[Greycat]

17 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Thanks. As I said, I was unaware of that. So my question is, how did that Controller Hold me to death then?

 

... when was this? Holds used to hold, as I recall. Might have been part of the whole i13 revamp.

[Gravitus]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

 

... when was this? Holds used to hold, as I recall. Might have been part of the whole i13 revamp.

Correct, Holds used to hold and its pretty common knowledge they don't now...they are more of a slow-down technique than anything....still good for teams...they can rarely go 1v1.

Edited September 26 by Gravitus

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

... when was this? Holds used to hold, as I recall. Might have been part of the whole i13 revamp.

No, it wasn't part of the I13 revamp. I was held to death by a Controller on HC. Maybe a few months back. Was in Bloody Bay hunting Shivans with someone that had asked for help getting them when a blue side Controller appeared and held me over and over while the Controller's partner dropped my partner. The Shivans we had been fighting were already dead, so it wasn't a Shivan holding me. I was affected by a Hold, not a confuse or a sleep, until I was dead. The Controller affected me with at least 3 holds, applying each new hold as soon as my Corruptor started moving again. My Corruptor's Hold resistance is 61.25%.

 

Edited September 26 by Rudra
Edited to remove unnecessary "a".

[Gravitus]

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

No, it wasn't part of the I13 revamp. I was held to death by a Controller on HC. Maybe a few months back. Was in Bloody Bay hunting Shivans with someone that had asked for help getting them when a blue side Controller appeared and held me over and over while the Controller's partner dropped my partner. The Shivans we had been fighting were already dead, so it wasn't a Shivan holding me. I was affected by a Hold, not a confuse or a sleep, until I was dead. The Controller affected me with at least 3 holds, applying each new hold as soon as my Corruptor started moving again. My Corruptor's Hold resistance is 61.25%.

 

Weird. Glitch? bug? I would challenge you to see if you can duplicate that effect...if you can it my be worth bringing up to a GM or dev. As far as I know I have been unable to hold anyone to death since issue 13 and the patch notes also suggest that should be impossible. 

Edited September 26 by Gravitus

[Gravitus]

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

No, it wasn't part of the I13 revamp. I was held to death by a Controller on HC. Maybe a few months back. Was in Bloody Bay hunting Shivans with someone that had asked for help getting them when a blue side Controller appeared and held me over and over while the Controller's partner dropped my partner. The Shivans we had been fighting were already dead, so it wasn't a Shivan holding me. I was affected by a Hold, not a confuse or a sleep, until I was dead. The Controller affected me with at least 3 holds, applying each new hold as soon as my Corruptor started moving again. My Corruptor's Hold resistance is 61.25%.

 

For the sake of argument, lets just say for now its the case holds suck as the wiki suggests....would you be pro that 15 second timer being lifted or make it to where a hold would last longer than a couple seconds? I just want controllers to have the ability to 1v1 like they used to. Which I don't think is asking for much when someone can be damn near auto killed with snipes . 

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

For the sake of argument, lets just say for now its the case holds suck as the wiki suggests....would you be pro that 15 second timer being lifted or make it to where a hold would last longer than a couple seconds? I just want controllers to have the ability to 1v1 like they used to. Which I don't think is asking for much when someone can be damn near auto killed with snipes . 

 

On 9/25/2024 at 11:30 AM, Rudra said:

To the best of my knowledge, holds in PvP had their durations reduced because mez protection got yanked in PvP and reduced to just mez resistance. If you want holds restored, then everything will need to be restored. (Which I am fine with.) And that returns the game to rock-paper-scissors PvP were melees stomp controls, controls stomp range, and range (most likely) stomps melee.

 

23 hours ago, Rudra said:

On 9/25/2024 at 1:04 PM, Gravitus said:

But even so...you have so many ways to break mez (break frees and powers) that didn't exist when they nerfed mez into oblivion. 

Yes, they did exist. Whether you are talking about Break Frees or the Iron Wills that preceded it and had to be used in advance, there were always inspiration responses to mezzes.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

5 hours ago, Gravitus said:

23 hours ago, Rudra said:

Yes, they did exist. Whether you are talking about Break Frees or the Iron Wills that preceded it and had to be used in advance, there were always inspiration responses to mezzes.

break frees came after the mez nerf in pvp.....iron wills were lackluster because you had to use them prior to being held/mezzed which is why i suspect they got replaced. 

Isn't that what my post you are quoting says? And my point isn't how viable they were, my point is that they existed.

 

Please make note of my comments and their purpose. In particular, let me emphasize part of my 1st post:

On 9/25/2024 at 11:30 AM, Rudra said:

If you want holds restored, then everything will need to be restored. (Which I am fine with.)

 

I am not and never was arguing against the OP. I was pointing out errors in your statements and trying to provide clarification. I don't PvP. Typically, if I'm in a PvP zone, it is because I am looking for a badge or I am helping someone else get their badge. And if I see a PvP'er and I don't have someone I am trying to help get a badge, I beeline for the exit. I don't care what PvP'ers do to each other in PvP zones.

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

No, it wasn't part of the I13 revamp. I was held to death by a Controller on HC. Maybe a few months back. Was in Bloody Bay hunting Shivans with someone that had asked for help getting them when a blue side Controller appeared and held me over and over while the Controller's partner dropped my partner. The Shivans we had been fighting were already dead, so it wasn't a Shivan holding me. I was affected by a Hold, not a confuse or a sleep, until I was dead. The Controller affected me with at least 3 holds, applying each new hold as soon as my Corruptor started moving again. My Corruptor's Hold resistance is 61.25%.

 

Wondering if this was a Dark Controller when Dark Control was bugged (hold lasted several times longer than the others).

[Rudra]

52 minutes ago, arcane said:

Wondering if this was a Dark Controller when Dark Control was bugged (hold lasted several times longer than the others).

No, it wasn't a case of overly long holds. The Controller would apply a hold, then it would wear off and I would start to flee or throw an attack, and then the Controller held me again. (Edit: Hells, I even threw my own hold on the Controller, Petrifying Gaze from Dark Miasma, and the Controller stopped doing anything for a few heartbeats, then resumed locking me down.)

 

Edited September 26 by Rudra