Giving placate more flexibility when it can be used.

[Mystoc]

Change: Placate can now be used without a target to enter hide, if used this way it will not root but still have a cast time.

Downside: no targets get placated so you will lose part of powers effect of getting 5 targets to ignore you.

Upside: can now be used in between packs to bypass hides cooldown faster without needing a new target.

 

Reasoning:

Placates main use right now is landing back to back crits in combat but doing so in team play is often just too slow. Usually what you placate will be defeated by the time you are ready to attack again except maybe if it's a boss, so you then search for a new target while also hoping nothing else attacks you to break hide. While it can work its often just clunky to use placate effectively mid combat on teams.

 

the idea of placates new use would be to use it right away after defeating a pack to start its cooldown sooner and avoid that awkward 3-4 second time frame when your team reaches a new pack, but you aren't hidden yet so feel compelled to wait while others fight so you can land that juicy crit opener.

 

to be clear placate would still function like normal if targeting an alive enemy and this change would apply to Stalkers, Widows and Banes.

 

 

Edited January 28 by Mystoc

[Mystoc]

usually, I do not like commenting first without a reply but, it seems some are against this idea but not enough to take the time explain why it would a bad idea to give placate more flexibility.

 

I think this would be a great change for archetypes that use hide so they can keep up with their teams clear speed but if I'm missing something please let me know, thanks!

[tidge]

I suspect the reason you got thumbs-down are manifold. I didn't thumbs-down it, but I can imagine why:

 

There are no "Put myself immediately back in Hidden" powers in the game, AFAIK. This doesn't jive with the way the game works for "when clicked, when attacked". It likely won't have teh effect desired, because of server-client behavior, AI effects, AoE attacks, etc. The only thing that I think comes close is the Stalker's Guile ATO %Hide, and that requires a target to be attacked. I'm struggling to think of a click power that would do both of the things mentioned in the OP, i.e. "doesn't always need a target".

 

AFAIK Placate itself got a direct uprade and an indirect one. The indirect one is due to the modification to the "Threat" enhancements and allowance for slotting into Placate.

 

Placate is (now) almost a class-defining power for Stalkers and certain VEATs.

 

Side-bar:

I'm obviously self-judging with what follows, but I think the most radical power suggestion I've made kinda involves (something like) Placate. Because of the way the Presence pool essentially forces either Provoke or Pacify (or both), either of which might be at odds for a bunch of ATs... I once suggested that the Presence pool versions of Taunt/Confront and Placate be given modified code so that they acted more like the inherent version from the ATs that have those powers in primary/secondary. This is because while the Presence pool is quite good, it strikes me as quite the build tax for something like a Stalker to have to take an inferior version of Placate. But even in this case I'm not suggesting a different power, just that the pool version (that must be taken to unlock other pool powers) not be explicitly gimped for specific ATs.

[Rudra]

If you want to crit targets and not have to wait out of combat for Hide or use Placate? Then either team with someone that has Holds or select your own Hold power(s). Targets currently under a Hold or Sleep effect give the Stalker the crits that being Hidden does.

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, Mystoc said:

usually, I do not like commenting first without a reply but, it seems some are against this idea but not enough to take the time explain why it would a bad idea to give placate more flexibility.

 

I think this would be a great change for archetypes that use hide so they can keep up with their teams clear speed but if I'm missing something please let me know, thanks!

 

Thank you for posting your idea. I understand that you think it would be a good change. I disagree.

 

On 1/28/2025 at 8:32 AM, Mystoc said:

Downside: no targets get placated so you will lose part of powers effect of getting 5 targets to ignore you.

 

I use pacify on characters that don't have hide. I want it to pacify. 

And even on the characters I have that can hide, I would not want placate to change. I want it to placate.

The two powers are essentially the same thing; "ignore me". That is what I want out of those powers. It isn't called "hide".

 

So,  yeah, since apparently we are repeating to get our points across - I don't want this change.

[Mystoc]

 

1 hour ago, tidge said:

I suspect the reason you got thumbs-down are manifold. I didn't thumbs-down it, but I can imagine why:

 

There are no "Put myself immediately back in Hidden" powers in the game, AFAIK. This doesn't jive with the way the game works for "when clicked, when attacked". It likely won't have teh effect desired, because of server-client behavior, AI effects, AoE attacks, etc. T

 

first of all, its not immediately back to hidden it still has it original cast time you aren't skipping that just needing a target.

 

next you aren't really fully hidden though targets still know about you and will attack you since you didn't use placate on a target nothing is placated it's not a guaranteed crit since you can be attacked right after you use it this way, this why no target placate would best be used between packs of mob's using it mid combat like that would be a downgrade.

 

placate works great in solo because you decide the speed you want go it's not a group decision, in groups though it's just too slow to be used effectively most times what you placate is defeated already then you search for a new target that is almost defeated too and now the group is onto the next pack of mobs and you still have 5-6 seconds on your hide cooldown.

 

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

The only thing that I think comes close is the Stalker's Guile ATO %Hide, and that requires a target to be attacked. I'm struggling to think of a click power that would do both of the things mentioned in the OP, i.e. "doesn't always need a target".

 

 

stalker ATO proc is good reason why placate would be fine to work like this though, it needs a target because it's slotted on a actual attack the does damage that is part of the normal attack chain placate is a power that is just for hide it does no damage so why does it need to tied to a target?

 

lastly mastersminds ninja powerset has Smoke Flash which already has this too they can on command without an enemy target make the pet enter hide and their next attack be a crit, the placating enemies part is just based on proximity and is not required at all.

 

 

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

AFAIK Placate itself got a direct uprade and an indirect one. The indirect one is due to the modification to the "Threat" enhancements and allowance for slotting into Placate.

 

Placate is (now) almost a class-defining power for Stalkers and certain VEATs.

 

Side-bar:

I'm obviously self-judging with what follows, but I think the most radical power suggestion I've made kinda involves (something like) Placate. Because of the way the Presence pool essentially forces either Provoke or Pacify (or both), either of which might be at odds for a bunch of ATs... I once suggested that the Presence pool versions of Taunt/Confront and Placate be given modified code so that they acted more like the inherent version from the ATs that have those powers in primary/secondary. This is because while the Presence pool is quite good, it strikes me as quite the build tax for something like a Stalker to have to take an inferior version of Placate. But even in this case I'm not suggesting a different power, just that the pool version (that must be taken to unlock other pool powers) not be explicitly gimped for specific ATs.

do people actually slot placate at all though beside the standard one slot it gives you there is your answer how impactful it is viewed by the playerbase.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

AFAIK Placate itself got a direct uprade and an indirect one. The indirect one is due to the modification to the "Threat" enhancements and allowance for slotting into Placate.

 

Placate is (now) almost a class-defining power for Stalkers and certain VEATs.

 

Side-bar:

I'm obviously self-judging with what follows, but I think the most radical power suggestion I've made kinda involves (something like) Placate. Because of the way the Presence pool essentially forces either Provoke or Pacify (or both), either of which might be at odds for a bunch of ATs... I once suggested that the Presence pool versions of Taunt/Confront and Placate be given modified code so that they acted more like the inherent version from the ATs that have those powers in primary/secondary. This is because while the Presence pool is quite good, it strikes me as quite the build tax for something like a Stalker to have to take an inferior version of Placate. But even in this case I'm not suggesting a different power, just that the pool version (that must be taken to unlock other pool powers) not be explicitly gimped for specific ATs.

Expand  

do people actually slot placate at all though beside the standard one slot it gives you there is your answer how impactful it is viewed by the playerbase.

There is a huge difference between a power being impactful and a power being slotted with multiple enhancements.

[Mystoc]

10 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Thank you for posting your idea. I understand that you think it would be a good change. I disagree.

 

 

Thanks!

 

10 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

I use pacify on characters that don't have hide. I want it to pacify. 

And even on the characters I have that can hide, I would not want placate to change. I want it to placate.

The two powers are essentially the same thing; "ignore me". That is what I want out of those powers. It isn't called "hide".

 

So,  yeah, since apparently we are repeating to get our points across - I don't want this change.

 

I think you missed the part where I said on the last line placate still functions exactly the same if you have target when its used, you get more flexibility while its core ability to do what you want to pacify remains.

 

Quote

To be clear placate would still function like normal if targeting an alive enemy and this change would apply to Stalkers, Widows and Banes.

 

 

Edited February 4 by Mystoc

[Mystoc]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

There is a huge difference between a power being impactful and a power being slotted with multiple enhancements.

 

that was mainly in response to you mentioning it can take threat IOs now like thats a major upgrade in some way. its great we have more options but it doesn't change much at all, you will slot it with a single recharge IO in placate because it can't miss and what you placate is going to be defeated before the unenhanced placate effect wears off anyway.

 

I agree with you that placate is the most impactful power to have for these archetypes when solo but being teamed greatly changes how the power functions a lot, you have teammates taking hits for you so losing agro matters way less, and teammates defeating the target you wanted to hit with crits and making the pace of play much faster which a 10 second hide cooldown just can't keep up with.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

 

that was mainly in response to you mentioning it can take threat IOs now like thats a major upgrade in some way.

I did? When?

[UltraAlt]

27 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

I think you missed the part where I said on the last line placate still functions exactly the same if you have target when its used, you get more flexibility while its core ability to do what you want to pacify remains.

 

If it requires a target, then how can it go off without a target?

So you want it to be an area effect power that has variable effect dependant on if there is a target within range or not?

What other power in-game works that way?

 

 

Edited February 4 by UltraAlt

[Mystoc]

1 minute ago, UltraAlt said:

 

If it requires a target, then how can it go off without a target?

So you want it to be an area effect power that has variable affects dependant on if there is a target within range or not?

What other power in game works that way?

• the change is to make requiring a target optional it can work with and without one and will behave differently.
• no it wont placate if you used it without a target, it would just reset the hide cooldown, I state this in my downside section.
• Blaster Snipes functions differently based on factors in the game like being in combat and not
• you can even make keybinds to instantly use PBAoE powers, so they behave like TAoE powers if you have a target.

[tidge]

45 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

do people actually slot placate at all though beside the standard one slot it gives you there is your answer how impactful it is viewed by the playerbase.

 

I do. Mocking Beratement provides useful (to me) set bonuses for pretty much each additional piece, and Perfect Zinger allows %Psi then placates for several ATs.

 

Personally, I find the range and recharge attributes to be the most beneficial.

[Rudra]

34 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

Blaster Snipes functions differently based on factors in the game like being in combat and not

Blaster snipes, and snipes in general, still require a target regardless. What changes is whether or not they have an interrupt time depending on whether your character is currently flagged as being in combat. So, not comparable.

 

Edit: Even Enflame from the Sorcery pool still requires a target, it just lets you use it on both allies and enemies to harm enemies. And its variable application is the closest thing I can think of to a power that changes its function.

 

Edited February 5 by Rudra
Edited again to rewrite the edit.

[Mystoc]

17 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Blaster snipes, and snipes in general, still require a target regardless. What changes is whether or not they have an interrupt time depending on whether your character is currently flagged as being in combat. So, not comparable.

 

Edit: Even Enflame from the Sorcery pool still requires a target, it just lets you use it on both allies and enemies to harm enemies. And its variable application is the closest thing I can think of to a power that changes its function.

 

 

 

 fast and slow snipes are a single power behaving in drastically different ways based on in game factors that is all I meant by it, the same could be true for placate.

 

maybe there is no precedent for targeted powers working differently if there's no target but why should that preclude it from being so? the real questions should be is it fair/ balanced and is it possible for the devs to code placate to work this way.

 

 

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

the real questions should be is it fair/ balanced and is it possible for the devs to code placate to work this way.

No, the real question is why after Stalkers being on teams and finding their Placate less than helpful as opposed to when they are solo and so the Live devs made adjustments to the AT specifically to give Stalkers their crits back while on teams, why you insist that there is no means of Stalkers to use their crits while on teams. Any enemy that is held or slept is open to Stalker's crits. You can have what you are asking for without having to go back and possibly having to change the underlying game engine simply by either having someone with sleeps and holds on the team or by using the available holds for Stalkers in their APP/PPP, available procs, and Judgement powers.

[Mystoc]

12 minutes ago, Rudra said:

No, the real question is why after Stalkers being on teams and finding their Placate less than helpful as opposed to when they are solo and so the Live devs made adjustments to the AT specifically to give Stalkers their crits back while on teams, why you insist that there is no means of Stalkers to use their crits while on teams. Any enemy that is held or slept is open to Stalker's crits.

 

agreed this is helpful for stalker against held enemies but good luck convincing teammates to not attack you so can crit a sleeping enemy.. almost every player has DoTs and AoE

 

 

12 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You can have what you are asking for without having to go back and possibly having to change the underlying game engine simply by either having someone with sleeps and holds on the team or by using the available holds for Stalkers in their APP/PPP, available procs, and Judgement powers.

 

you make sounding like going out your way to have an archetype with an AoE held to crit more a given, sleeps won't work on teams like I mentioned.

 

• getting into the possibilities of how much the game code has to change to get this change done will not be helpful neither of us know the answer to this.
• lastly you seem to be focused on stalker but remember this change is aimed not just for stalkers but all archetypes with hide and placate, so widow and bane too I did mention that in the post.

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

lastly you seem to be focused on stalker but remember this change is aimed not just for stalkers but all archetypes with hide and placate, so widow and bane too I did mention that in the post.

Because with all the toys Bane Spiders and Night Widows get, not having access to Stalker expanded crit options seems a fair trade off to me.

 

Edit: As for the sleep part of working on teams? Sure, sleeps tend to be less than helpful outside of constant application powers like Static Field. That doesn't apply to the plethora of hold options we have though. And a held target doesn't get free from DoTs or even your characters critting them.

 

Edited February 5 by Rudra

[Mystoc]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Because with all the toys Bane Spiders and Night Widows get, not having access to Stalker expanded crit options seems a fair trade off to me.

stalkers have assassin strike and the abiltiy to use it quickly out of hide with assassin's focus stacks to guarantee crits out of hide and the ability to use hide ATO procs, they already far outclass Bane/Widows the amount of times they can crit in and out of hide which is fair because that's their focus.

 

im not asking for banes and widows to get features like that just be included in on the placate change, when placate was changed to target 5 enemies instead of just one with a faster cast time banes and widows were not excluded so why would that change here? having placate function differently across archetypes would just cause confusion for new players.

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

stalkers have assassin strike and the abiltiy to use it quickly out of hide with assassin's focus stacks to guarantee crits out of hide and the ability to use hide ATO procs, they already far outclass Bane/Widows the amount of times they can crit in and out of hide which is fair because that's their focus.

 

im not asking for banes and widows to get features like that just be included in on the placate change, when placate was changed to target 5 enemies instead of just one with a faster cast time banes and widows were not excluded so why would that change here? having placate function differently across archetypes would just cause confusion for new players.

Because changing Placate the way you are asking is completely unnecessary. Stalkers get crits when Hidden and against any enemy that is slept or held regardless of what causes the effect or how. Bane Spiders and Night Widows get their crits only while Hidden, but they are also able to double dip in leadership powers boosting their own and their team's effectiveness. Net result? Your request is not something I can accept. And from the way this thread has gone, I don't seem to be the minority voice here.

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Mystoc said:

• the change is to make requiring a target optional it can work with and without one and will behave differently.
• no it wont placate if you used it without a target, it would just reset the hide cooldown, I state this in my downside section.
• Blaster Snipes functions differently based on factors in the game like being in combat and not
• you can even make keybinds to instantly use PBAoE powers, so they behave like TAoE powers if you have a target.

 

I defer to @Rudra 's response.

[Wavicle]

There's just no need. Hit it when you're in range of mobs. It doesn't aggro them.

[Hedgefund]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

Any enemy that is held or slept is open to Stalker's crits.

This is wrong, it's not "any enemy"  it's only PVP enemies.

 

From https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Stalker#Criticals 

In PvP, most un-Hidden Stalker single-target attacks can only crit if the target is Held or Slept, and do so 20% of the time, but a few get criticals 10%-15% of the time regardless of whether the target is mezzed.

 

This is further corroborated by City of Data where any Stalker attack has an entry like this within the tag "PVP only":

20% chance

 

• • 
    116.2089 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets)

    

if (source>kMeter < 0.9) && ((target>kHeld > 0) || (target>kSleep > 0))

[Wavicle]

I just don't see the purpose of the suggestion at all. If you're in range of mobs, you can target them and hit Placate to Hide yourself immediately. If you're NOT in range of mobs then waiting 5 seconds isn't going to be an issue.

Edited February 5 by Wavicle

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Hedgefund said:

This is wrong, it's not "any enemy"  it's only PVP enemies.

 

From https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Stalker#Criticals 

In PvP, most un-Hidden Stalker single-target attacks can only crit if the target is Held or Slept, and do so 20% of the time, but a few get criticals 10%-15% of the time regardless of whether the target is mezzed.

 

This is further corroborated by City of Data where any Stalker attack has an entry like this within the tag "PVP only":

20% chance

 

• • 
    116.2089 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets)

    

if (source>kMeter < 0.9) && ((target>kHeld > 0) || (target>kSleep > 0))

I sit corrected.

 

(Edit: So take heart in that Stalkers can crit enemies even when not hidden depending on how big the team is. The bigger the team within range, the more likely to crit. No Holds or Sleeps required.)

 

Edited February 5 by Rudra