Phantasm Sucks

[brass_eagle]

On 2/7/2025 at 12:35 AM, Vanden said:

Phantasm has two major issues that hinder its effectiveness:

 

1. Energy Torrent. This cone power has a range of 40 feet. NPCs are programmed to use ranged cone attacks at half the max range, to increase the odds that it'll hit more than one target. Apparently 20 feet is close enough that the Phantasm will decide it might as well close to melee range. Replace Energy Torrent with Explosive Blast and this issue goes away.

 

2. Decoy Phantasm dies immediately if the target the Phantasm summoned it against dies. Since Decoy Phantasm is a huge portion of Phantasm's total damage output, the pet's total effectiveness can vary wildly depending on what it chooses to summon the decoy against. If the Decoy were made to not die with its target, Phantasm would have much more consistent damage output.

 

Also, its powers should really be changed to do knockdown instead of knockback. AoE knockback is bad enough, but AoE knockback in the hands of an NPC that is completely incapable of using it judiciously? No thank you.

 

Agreed pets should always have KD -- the Decoy does have taunt though if IIRC. Not sure if that changes anyone's view (not sure about the dominator version).

[Wavicle]

5 hours ago, Fusaokek said:

Personally after one of the commenters suggested it I think I would prefer power bolt over energy torrent

 

I might just have misunderstood your point here, but doesn't it already have Power Bolt?

[Wavicle]

5 hours ago, Fusaokek said:

I just happen to think what holds it back is it's broken pet.

 

You understand that Illusion Controllers have solod Giant Monsters?

So while I definitely agree that Energy Torrent is problematic for this pet, I certainly wouldn't call the pet "broken", and to say that it's "holding the set back" seems like a real stretch.

More like (and more LIKELY), if the pet was made much more effective some OTHER aspect of the set would need to be nerfed in order to keep Illusions from being head and shoulders above every other Control set.

Really, if your Phantasm is dying too much, you should be a little more on it with controlling the mobs to protect him.

[battlewraith]

So the phantasm has to be an annoying moron so that people won't think that illusion is too OP. This is the mentality that, imo drives the game towards mediocrity--the fact that every set follows a formula where it comes across as a tweaked, repackaged version of something else. The concern that illusion would be head and shoulders above other sets (for what?) in a 20 year old game is silly. Particularly, when most vets have at least one 50 sitting on a shelf somewhere. In the age of inventions and incarnates, where damage dealers like blasters can have pets if they want, the thought of a non-stupid phantasm throwing things out of whack is just gatekeeping over the most marginal of concerns.

[arcane]

6 hours ago, battlewraith said:

So the phantasm has to be an annoying moron so that people won't think that illusion is too OP. This is the mentality that, imo drives the game towards mediocrity--the fact that every set follows a formula where it comes across as a tweaked, repackaged version of something else. The concern that illusion would be head and shoulders above other sets (for what?) in a 20 year old game is silly. Particularly, when most vets have at least one 50 sitting on a shelf somewhere. In the age of inventions and incarnates, where damage dealers like blasters can have pets if they want, the thought of a non-stupid phantasm throwing things out of whack is just gatekeeping over the most marginal of concerns.

Don’t be ridiculous. It is not gatekeeping to say “Illusion Control is one of the most potent sets in the game so maybe they shouldn’t buff it right now, beyond AI improvements that everyone is in agreement on.”

[battlewraith]

40 minutes ago, arcane said:

Don’t be ridiculous. It is not gatekeeping to say “Illusion Control is one of the most potent sets in the game so maybe they shouldn’t buff it right now, beyond AI improvements that everyone is in agreement on.”

I don't see much there other than gatekeeping. There is no substance to this response.

The pet is annoying because of knockback and it's AI. I'm playing one right now, it's a moron and sometimes gets me killed by aggroing other groups. Regardless of how strong IC is as a set, addressing these issues is not going to make it suddenly vastly more powerful. It will just make it more enjoyable to use that pet. It's laughable that someone would frame this as a big deal. And you're mischaracterizing this conversation which seems to be divided between "yeah adjust the AI" and "any fix to a problem is a buff, and under no circumstances should this set get a buff."

[Riverdusk]

12 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

I might just have misunderstood your point here, but doesn't it already have Power Bolt?

 

I think he meant explosive blast as that was what was suggested before.  Basically a ranged aoe instead of a short cone that most believe is what forces its ai into near melee.  Agreed it would be a buff, but I don't think it is an outrageous one.    It would probably mean a slight nerf to its damage and/or recharge as aoe's tend to be slightly less damaging and longer recharging than cones.

 

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

he pet is annoying because of knockback and it's AI.

Yeah - the AI needs work.  The KB - well, the "official" stance seems to be, if you don't like KB, slot a KB->KD IO, (not that I agree with this sentiment, mind you, but it's there).

[arcane]

23 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

I don't see much there other than gatekeeping. There is no substance to this response.

The pet is annoying because of knockback and it's AI. I'm playing one right now, it's a moron and sometimes gets me killed by aggroing other groups. Regardless of how strong IC is as a set, addressing these issues is not going to make it suddenly vastly more powerful. It will just make it more enjoyable to use that pet. It's laughable that someone would frame this as a big deal. And you're mischaracterizing this conversation which seems to be divided between "yeah adjust the AI" and "any fix to a problem is a buff, and under no circumstances should this set get a buff."

Can you point to the person who is opposing better AI?

[battlewraith]

13 minutes ago, arcane said:

Can you point to the person who is opposing better AI?

 

You introduce the notion that the set should not be buffed. Then there is debate about what constitutes a buff. Wavicle said:

"Any improvement is a buff. Those suggested changes to Phantasm would improve its damage and survivability, making them buffs. I happen to agree that Phantasm should hang back, and that its attacks should all be knockdown instead of knockback, but I'm not going to deny that those would be buffs. Obviously they are buffs. You were in fact asking for Illusion to be buffed, you were just specific about what exactly you wanted buffed."

 

Nobody is directly defending the current AI, because that would be overtly stupid. Instead, the idea is being dismissed on the grounds of being a buff. A quantifiable sin, so to speak. 

[arcane]

8 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

You introduce the notion that the set should not be buffed. Then there is debate about what constitutes a buff. Wavicle said:

"Any improvement is a buff. Those suggested changes to Phantasm would improve its damage and survivability, making them buffs. I happen to agree that Phantasm should hang back, and that its attacks should all be knockdown instead of knockback, but I'm not going to deny that those would be buffs. Obviously they are buffs. You were in fact asking for Illusion to be buffed, you were just specific about what exactly you wanted buffed."

 

Nobody is directly defending the current AI, because that would be overtly stupid. Instead, the idea is being dismissed on the grounds of being a buff. A quantifiable sin, so to speak. 

I am in favor of improvements to pet AI because they really just bring pet performance up to where it should already be. I am personally not a fan of buffing Illusion Control in any other way because Illusion Controllers and Dominators are currently S Tier monsters. I think it takes 2 seconds and a couple million influence to rectify one’s issue with the knockback forever.
 

If @Wavicle actually opposes even AI improvements, I’m sure he will clarify that that is the case.

[Wavicle]

I think I already said I believe the Phantasm should hang back a bit more?

The issue isn't really a disagreement over that, it's what you just said. Illusions is already top of the heap even with the bad pet AI.

[battlewraith]

A very reasonable case has been made, by multiple people, that the AI should be adjusted and that the knockback is a problem. If you have to tax the player with resources and a slot to fix a problem, that's bad design and should be addressed. I couldn't care less what the status of the whole set is with regard to someone's tier ranking. Mainly because this game is very easy to begin with and calling something an S-tier monster doesn't mean that much. On a team with other ATs that are fully slotted with sets and incarnates, that "buffed" phantasm is not going to matter at all. On the other hand, if you're a lowbie and grinding your way up with SOs--seems kind of waste of money to drop a couple million to buy what is basically a QOL improvement because your own pet is putting you at greater risk. 

[arcane]

23 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

A very reasonable case has been made, by multiple people, that the AI should be adjusted and that the knockback is a problem. If you have to tax the player with resources and a slot to fix a problem, that's bad design and should be addressed. I couldn't care less what the status of the whole set is with regard to someone's tier ranking. Mainly because this game is very easy to begin with and calling something an S-tier monster doesn't mean that much. On a team with other ATs that are fully slotted with sets and incarnates, that "buffed" phantasm is not going to matter at all. On the other hand, if you're a lowbie and grinding your way up with SOs--seems kind of waste of money to drop a couple million to buy what is basically a QOL improvement because your own pet is putting you at greater risk. 

We have no indication that the developers see your position on knockback as a problem. They have repeatedly pointed players to existing solutions every time this dead horse takes a beating.

[battlewraith]

10 minutes ago, arcane said:

We have no indication that the developers see your position on knockback as a problem. They have repeatedly pointed players to existing solutions every time this dead horse takes a beating.

"We"? 

They'll either see it or they won't. In the meantime, you could cut out some of the noise by refraining from beating the horse yourself and then complaining about other people doing it lol.

[Wavicle]

21 hours ago, battlewraith said:

"We"? 

They'll either see it or they won't. In the meantime, you could cut out some of the noise by refraining from beating the horse yourself and then complaining about other people doing it lol.

Yes, we. Maybe you don't live on these forums the way some of us do. Knockback is not a new topic of conversation. The devs have repeatedly indicated (to "us") that they have no intention of removing Knockback aside from those tools they've already given us (and possibly adding more "gather them up", "hold them in place", and "close the gap" abilities. Asking for it again and again is just a waste of everyone's time.

[battlewraith]

39 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Yes, we. Maybe you don't live on these forums the way some of us do. Knockback is not a new topic of conversation. The devs have repeatedly indicated (to "us") that they have no intention of removing Knockback aside from those tools they've already given us (and possibly adding more "gather them up", "hold them in place", and "close the gap" abilities. Asking for it again and again is just a waste of everyone's time.

Which is why I said gatekeeping earlier. I don't live on these forums. I specifically don't camp here in suggestions to shoot ideas down. 

If people keep asking for something again and again, it's an indication of interest. Which is why they are expressing that interest in a place called SUGGESTIONS & FEEDBACK. 

Your time is your own to waste. Unless you're being coerced to comment, there is no point in you complaining about what other people request. If the devs don't like the request, it will sink off the page like everything else.

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Which is why I said gatekeeping earlier. I don't live on these forums. I specifically don't camp here in suggestions to shoot ideas down. 

If people keep asking for something again and again, it's an indication of interest. Which is why they are expressing that interest in a place called SUGGESTIONS & FEEDBACK. 

Your time is your own to waste. Unless you're being coerced to comment, there is no point in you complaining about what other people request. If the devs don't like the request, it will sink off the page like everything else.

 

You have a misapprehension of the meaning of the word gatekeeping.

We are explaining to you what was previously explained to us when we made the same suggestion!

[battlewraith]

55 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

You have a misapprehension of the meaning of the word gatekeeping.

We are explaining to you what was previously explained to us when we made the same suggestion!

Yeah you can stop with that. I assume that the majority of suggestions made here will be ignored. People might hope for a change, want to discuss an idea, or just vent. They don't need the world-weary gaggle of naysayers talking about the dead horse, as if they were bound like Alex DeLarge and forced to read repetitive forum posts.

[Championess]

As others have pointed out Illusion is in no need of a buff.  It's in fact one of the best control sets due in large part to how good Phantom Army is.  Sure pet AI should be tweaked for all control characters.  If that someday happens where most pets are controllable and sets Illusion further ahead than the rest then don't discount some slight toning down of other things in Illusion.  

 

Incidently on my Illusion dom I found I could drop Phantasm for the boss Fortunata Seer pet.  So much better, maybe adapt?

Edited yesterday at 12:21 AM by Championess