It is time for a HARDCORE SERVER!

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, Super Atom said:

I'm sure OP would be fine with a checkbox too, What he wants is pre-established enforced rules to prevent cheating in the community.

Right up there in the thread title: "It is time for a HARDCORE SERVER" (emphasis mine). A checkbox won't cut it; that leaves him facing the possibility of teaming with players who aren't gunning for a 'one life to live' experience, and who aren't as concerned about not being defeated, allowing him to be victimized by "zergers".

[Super Atom]

2 minutes ago, tidge said:

Every player can already set themselves up to play the way that has been described as "hardcore", so why the demand for all this extra effort?

 

It's not like a YT viewer knows if there was really ice water in those "ice bucket challenges".

 

Honestly, You're not wrong. You can already self do this.

 

The main benefit of having a built in system is fostering a community without needing to question certain things. Cheating in hardcore is often a problem on self-governed hardcore capable games and also having direct support for a community is pretty important to help one grow.

 

Is that worth the dev time? That'd be a Homecoming call. I do think DR_Scorps idea (minus the prove it to us part) for a hardcore community to really show interest in the idea if there is anyone left would be a big help overall, but again it's a bit hard to gain steam in a game like this for something like that without pre-existing support for it.

 

2 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Right up there in the thread title: "It is time for a HARDCORE SERVER" (emphasis mine). A checkbox won't cut it; that leaves him facing the possibility of teaming with players who aren't gunning for a 'one life to live' experience, and who aren't as concerned about not being defeated, allowing him to be victimized by "zergers".

 

Shared HC/non HC can be difficult, which is why its often done separately or in a different phase. However, its own server /is/ a bit hard to justify with the current Hardcore participation, which is why he should be happy with any support to help build a community around the idea of hardcore.

[Maelwys]

7 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

A Hardcore server/checkbox would likely need to have
...

+ Powers and Lore tweaks so that these and all this does not become utterly pointless.
+ Sufficient Demand to Justify the Ongoing Cost (for a Server) and the Dev Time (for both)

The former is probably surmountable if the latter is achieved. 

It's worth pointing out that the vast majority of dissenting comments in this thread (including my own) have not shot the idea of IronMan-mode CoH down; but focused instead on how deeply unpopular and financially unwise implementing a mandatory version of it on a new dedicated Homecoming server would be.

Enabling HC-mode via an optional tickbox on the existing HC servers is a drastic departure from what the OP's original stance and ask was. And given that adding that wouldn't require an ongoing monetary drain on HC or an alternative codebase (self-rez powers could be locked out or redirected rather than removed; and allied rez effects could be made ineffectual on ironman-enabled players) the only real drain would be on the Dev Team's time. Therefore it'd be far more doable technically.

Whilst all it would really be doing would be removing the need for self-policing (the "honour system" that the Ironman-mode players currently adhere to)... unlike the original ask it's neither utterly ridiculous nor harmful; and a few people might benefit from it. So yes; perhaps it'd actually have a fair chance of eventually being added to the Dev's ToDo list.

But...
  

12 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Right up there in the thread title: "It is time for a HARDCORE SERVER" (emphasis mine). 

THIS.

The difference between an Optional Checkbox and a New Dedicated Mandatory Server is Apples and Oligarchs.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Maelwys said:

+ Powers and Lore tweaks so that these and all this does not become utterly pointless.
+ Sufficient Demand to Justify the Ongoing Cost (for a Server) and the Dev Time (for both)

 

The character loses HC on death, you simply do not take self revives. You don't need to specifically outlaw them.

You keep saying server cost, but there is basically no backing to what you're saying. We don't know how much spinning up another shard would cost overall, last time i checked their hardware can handle more than what its doing already, now this doesn't absolutely mean it'd be costless or anything. But your assumption it would be 800 additional dollars seems misinformed.

 

3 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

It's worth pointing out that the vast majority of dissenting comments in this thread (including my own) have not shot the idea of IronMan-mode CoH down; but focused instead on how deeply unpopular and financially unwise implementing a mandatory version of it on a new dedicated Homecoming server would be.

 

This is mostly assumptions though. You don't know its popularity or cost, not really. It could be unpopular and fall flat. Absolutely it could. Or it could not.

 

4 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Enabling HC-mode via an optional tickbox on the existing HC servers is a drastic departure from what the OP's original stance and ask was

 

This is what the discussion about an idea is for. Finding better or more efficient ways for something to be added. Congratulations, you did it.

 

[merrypessimist]

7 hours ago, JKCarrier said:

I want a Softcore Server. It would be exactly like the regular servers, except that all the missions where you have to fight Silver Mantis are removed.

 

Aren't we already softcore servers? I mean just look around any given Pocket D. 

[merrypessimist]

27 minutes ago, tidge said:

Every player can already set themselves up to play the way that has been described as "hardcore", so why the demand for all this extra effort?

 

It's not like a YT viewer knows if there was really ice water in those "ice bucket challenges".

 

Because for some people the entire point is forcing others to play by their preferred rules.

[Wavicle]

Check box vs dedicated server is a TOTALLY different request.

I still think it is more dev work than would be worth it, but if some dev decided that's what they wanted to do, fine.

 

You click a checkbox at character creation. Your character is now 100% immune to all Resurrection mechanics.

 

But a server where everybody on it HAS to play that way? Not in Homecoming.

[Super Atom]

Just now, merrypessimist said:

 

Because for some people the entire point is forcing others to play by their preferred rules.

 

im going to reach through the internet and force you to make a hardcore character

 

😱

[Wavicle]

Just now, merrypessimist said:

 

Because for some people the entire point is forcing others to play by their preferred rules.

 

I understand the desire, it's not about imposing rules, it's about incentivizing different playstyles. But, with a tiny volunteer dev team? A whole server? No way.

[Maelwys]

3 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Quote

Enabling HC-mode via an optional tickbox on the existing HC servers is a drastic departure from what the OP's original stance and ask was

This is what the discussion about an idea is for. Finding better or more efficient ways for something to be added. Congratulations, you did it.

Actually... YOU did it.

Unfortunately the OP has thus far only ever expressed an interest in a dedicated environment where everyone within that environment is forced to play the same "hardcore" rules. And whilst voluntarily adhering to a set of Hardcore rules or even joining a Supergroup full of like-minded people might seem like a reasonable compromise, it was already suggested but not accepted by them.

"It is time for a HARDCORE SERVER!"
"Its the future, I'm positive its going to happen! So many other games are adding Hardcore servers as well"
"if there is a hardcore server made, guarantee it would be the most populated by far!"
"It's not the same to set "self rules" or even group rules. A server that makes your character immediately unplayable upon death is completely different, especially if every person you see has followed the survived thus far. Seeing lvl 50s actually would mean something"

So congratulations @Super Atom; I can get behind your suggestion👍
Let's hope the OP can as well.
 

[Wavicle]

Actually, there IS a way to do both:

You click a checkbox at character creation. Your character is 100% immune to Resurrection mechanics.

 

BUT ALSO YOU CAN ONLY JOIN TEAMS WITH OTHER PLAYERS THAT CLICKED THE CHECK BOX.

 

No special servers, but you still get to team up with other weirdos.

[Super Atom]

Technically the checkbox was not my idea @Maelwys 😛 

 

i just also thought it was a good alternative idea to a whole server if that was an issue for homecoming.

[El D]

2 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

"Developers would need to develop to create this feature"

 

You don't have to change lore or power selections or anything. It's just an optional experience, it doesn't need to tie into the story.

 

They would have to change power selections, because the way every powerset in this game works at least partially around core mechanics where character death is not a permanent impediment. The math behind every power is built at least somewhat around the core concept of defeat for player characters being a fleeing inconvenience. Heck, in the case of rez powers its explicitly the sole intention, and there's a lot of those in the game spread across many archetypes. Including Awaken inspirations that drop regardless of archetype while fighting mobs at levels 1 through 50. None of which will have any use or function whatsoever on a 'permadeath' experience. For a dedicated Hardcore server, an entire core dynamic of interacting with the game would either need to be removed or reworked entirely to do other things and everything else would need to be re-balanced around defeat being permanent, rather than defeat being a very real occurrence that is only marginally impactful.

 

If none of the math changes and the game plays exactly as it does now just sans rezzes? Well, I hope folks like restarting from level 1. Get stomped by a giant monster? Start over. Get ganked by a mob you didn't see? Start over. If you run a taskforce set on the wrong difficulty? Start over. That's not even getting into endgame content like Dark Astoria, iTrials, or Preatoria. One good Rikti Invasion could end an entire Hardcore server with existing mechanics. That's doesn't seem like something a dev team could reliably put time and investment in the way Homecoming's servers have been built up. It's difficult to do major dev events when attending them possibly results in players losing their characters entirely. 'Oh hey, they spawned in Hamidon - now I'm dead and this character is gone.'

 

I'm not saying that Hardcore doesn't take skill or require extra challenge or even that having a really exclusive badge celebrating that wouldn't be cool, it's just that CoX does not innately lend itself to working that way (nor, as I understand it, do many of the HC devs). With other games that have official hardcore support, like WoW, it works better because the mechanics are different and the community is populous enough (even nowadays) to fully support side endeavors like that.

 

4 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

The main benefit of having a built in system is fostering a community without needing to question certain things. Cheating in hardcore is often a problem on self-governed hardcore capable games and also having direct support for a community is pretty important to help one grow.

 

As a devil's advocate for this point - a Harddcore section of the HC forums, for folks who want to play on the existing servers this way? 1000% support that and think it should be added. The game does allow players to play this way currently (if mostly via honor system) and a dedicated forum section would make it easier for folks interested in doing so to engage with one another. As an experiment to gauge the actual viability of Hardcore CoX, that seems like the most plausible first step, anyway. Just seeing how many people would even try the game that way and engage with it. Even if it still resulted on no official support beyond a place for chatting and player events, it'd be a spot where those who do Hardcore characters could compare notes and strategies and that seems plenty fair. I can think of far, far worse forums to have among the CoX circle (like bringing PWNZ back...).

[Wavicle]

Badges for NOT Dying to go along with the badges for Dying?

[Super Atom]

3 minutes ago, El D said:

 

They would have to change power selections, because the way every powerset in this game works at least partially around core mechanics where character death is not a permanent impediment. The math behind every power is built at least somewhat around the core concept of defeat for player characters being a fleeing inconvenience. Heck, in the case of rez powers its explicitly the sole intention, and there's a lot of those in the game spread across many archetypes. Including Awaken inspirations that drop regardless of archetype while fighting mobs at levels 1 through 50. None of which will have any use or function whatsoever on a 'permadeath' experience. For a dedicated Hardcore server, an entire core dynamic of interacting with the game would either need to be removed or reworked entirely to do other things and everything else would need to be re-balanced around defeat being permanent, rather than defeat being a very real occurrence that is only marginally impactful.

 

If none of the math changes and the game plays exactly as it does now just sans rezzes? Well, I hope folks like restarting from level 1. Get stomped by a giant monster? Start over. Get ganked by a mob you didn't see? Start over. If you run a taskforce set on the wrong difficulty? Start over. That's not even getting into endgame content like Dark Astoria, iTrials, or Preatoria. One good Rikti Invasion could end an entire Hardcore server with existing mechanics. That's doesn't seem like something a dev team could reliably put time and investment in the way Homecoming's servers have been built up. It's difficult to do major dev events when attending them possibly results in players losing their characters entirely. 'Oh hey, they spawned in Hamidon - now I'm dead and this character is gone.'

 

I'm not saying that Hardcore doesn't take skill or require extra challenge or even that having a really exclusive badge celebrating that wouldn't be cool, it's just that CoX does not innately lend itself to working that way (nor, as I understand it, do many of the HC devs). With other games that have official hardcore support, like WoW, it works better because the mechanics are different and the community is populous enough (even nowadays) to fully support side endeavors like that.

 

 

As a devil's advocate for this point - a Harddcore section of the HC forums, for folks who want to play on the existing servers this way? 1000% support that and think it should be added. The game does allow players to play this way currently (if mostly via honor system) and a dedicated forum section would make it easier for folks interested in doing so to engage with one another. As an experiment to gauge the actual viability of Hardcore CoX, that seems like the most plausible first step, anyway. Just seeing how many people would even try the game that way and engage with it. Even if it still resulted on no official support beyond a place for chatting and player events, it'd be a spot where those who do Hardcore characters could compare notes and strategies and that seems plenty fair. I can think of far, far worse forums to have among the CoX circle (like bringing PWNZ back...).

 

With a lot of things like revives and what not, It is just accepted as "oh well deal with it".  If you get ganked by something unfair or dumb, oh well start over. It's just the nature of hardcore. It can often be janky and weird and off putting but people still love doing it.

 

I think a forum section would be a great start, but it would really need some semblance of support in-game to take flight this far into Homecomings life span.

Edited Saturday at 11:45 PM by Super Atom

[Wavicle]

Yeah, they'd have to add like 5 (or 10 or 15 I guess if we're including multiple sides) badges "You reached level 10/20/30/40/50 on a Hardcore Mode character."

That would supply the "then level 50 would mean something" crowd with their bragging rights.

[Super Atom]

Idk about badges but i think if they did a hardcore, there should be a badge for doing the really hard way in hardcore called "Sweaty"  🤭

[Maelwys]

27 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Badges for NOT Dying to go along with the badges for Dying?

To be fair; if they're looking for ways to drive up adoption numbers then Die Hard (groan!) Badgers are probably a perfect target... 😜

  

7 minutes ago, El D said:

If none of the math changes and the game plays exactly as it does now just sans rezzes?

Assuming we're talking about the optional checkbox deal (so other players on the server would still use rez powers just fine + none of the Game's Lore would need to be changed; aside from possibly a brief note about a few new heroes appearing who are "Conscientious Objecters to Mediporter Tech" or whatever)... then I imagine that the easiest way to tackle self-rez powers would be to disable choosing these on level-up using the same conditional prerequisites that are currently set for stuff like Sentinel Super Reflexes Practiced Brawler and Master Brawler - these are mutually exclusive; and it's done via a prerequisite power possession check.

(i) Grant the Ironmanners a Silent Invisible Passive Power immediately after character creation; called "RezImmunity" or whatever.
(ii) Set "not possessing RezImmunity" as a prerequisite for choosing each self-rez power in the game.
(iii) Tweak the other rez effects so that they cannot affect any target that has RezImmunity active (similar to how Null the Gull turns off "Group Fly" effects)
(iv) Disable the effect that is attached to Rez Inspirations- not just getting them as loot drops/purchasing from AH + various reward vendors/attaining via combination, etc. And currently levelling up whilst dead revives you too; because you gain the effect of each of the Large inspirations. 
 

[Super Atom]

I think a simple popup that goes "Self revives and awakens won't save you from HC death" would work just fine and be easier tbh

[Maelwys]

I mean, I can only think of two possible situations for what happens during "permadeath".

+ One is that whenever the toon dies things get "paused" temporarily - the toon is stuck in a state where nothing can bring them back to life; but their body hangs around (if that doesn't make good "Vengeance" fodder I don't know what would!) and the player can still type in chat etc to say farewell before they eventually timeout and their character gets wiped. Potentially at this point the player might be permitted to choose to "chicken out" and forever disable Hardcore Mode and continue as a regular player [EDIT: which upon further reflection would allow the badge-gatherers a way to get to level 50 as a 'hardcore mode' player before intentionally dying + choosing the chicken out option and starting to farm their debt badges…]

+ The other is that as soon as the toon dies they instantly get deposited back on the Character Selection screen. No hanging around. No chance to activate Inspirations or get rezzed. No chance for Teammates to Vengeance your body or commiserate with you. Gone. Immediate game over.

The first would definitely need HC to implement some way of disabling rez effects both intentional (self rez) and non-intentional (allied rez, getting enough EXP via teammate activity to level up, etc) on the toon whilst their body is still hanging around.
 

Edited Sunday at 12:45 AM by Maelwys

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Maelwys said:

I mean, I can only think of two possible situations for what happens during "permadeath".

+ One is that whenever the toon dies things get "paused" temporarily - the toon is stuck in a state where nothing can bring them back to life; but their body hangs around (if that doesn't make good "Vengeance" fodder I don't know what would!) and the player can still type in chat etc to say farewell before they eventually timeout and their character gets wiped. Potentially at this point the player might be permitted to choose to "chicken out" and forever disable Hardcore Mode and continue as a regular player.

+ The other is that as soon as the toon dies they instantly get deposited back on the Character Selection screen. No hanging around. No chance to activate Inspirations or get rezzed. No chance for Teammates to Vengeance your body or commiserate with you. Gone. Immediate game over.

The first would definitely need HC to implement some way of disabling rez effects both intentional (self rez) and non-intentional (allied rez, getting enough EXP via teammate activity to level up, etc) on the toon whilst their body is still hanging around.

 

Yeah, as much as i love the idea of letting people keep their stuff for a more casual City of Heroes approach to things- It'd probably be easier to do the dead > disconnect route.

 

 

Also I've become increasingly more ill as the day has gone by so i likely won't be around to reply anymore. Sorry to those wanting to reply to me but aren't around in time to. If you're for what i say, pretend i gave you a thumbs up. If you're against me, pretend i said something mean.  👍

 

see you at the next one

[Rudra]

17 hours ago, Maelwys said:

then I imagine that the easiest way to tackle self-rez powers would be to disable choosing these on level-up using the same conditional prerequisites that are currently set for stuff like Sentinel Super Reflexes Practiced Brawler and Master Brawler - these are mutually exclusive; and it's done via a prerequisite power possession check.

Won't happen. Devs already said they won't go through the nightmare of setting that up again. Way I see it, is if Hardcore/Iron Man mode is added, leave the power sets alone. Player already say they skip the rezzes anyway, so nothing changes. And when that character is defeated, it immediately gets logged out of the game and deleted by the game.

 

Edited Sunday at 06:08 PM by Rudra
Edited to correct "Hard Core" to "Hardcore".

[Wavicle]

35 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

To be fair; if they're looking for ways to drive up adoption numbers then Die Hard (groan!) Badgers are probably a perfect target... 😜

  

Assuming we're talking about the optional checkbox deal (so other players on the server would still use rez powers just fine + none of the Game's Lore would need to be changed; aside from possibly a brief note about a few new heroes appearing who are "Conscientious Objecters to Mediporter Tech" or whatever)... then I imagine that the easiest way to tackle self-rez powers would be to disable choosing these on level-up using the same conditional prerequisites that are currently set for stuff like Sentinel Super Reflexes Practiced Brawler and Master Brawler - these are mutually exclusive; and it's done via a prerequisite power possession check.

(i) Grant the Ironmanners a Silent Invisible Passive Power immediately after character creation; called "RezImmunity" or whatever.
(ii) Set "not possessing RezImmunity" as a prerequisite for choosing each self-rez power in the game.
(iii) Tweak the other rez effects so that they cannot affect any target that has RezImmunity active (similar to how Null the Gull turns off "Group Fly" effects)
(iv) Disable the effect that is attached to Rez Inspirations- not just getting them as loot drops/purchasing from AH + various reward vendors/attaining via combination, etc. And currently levelling up whilst dead revives you too; because you gain the effect of each of the Large inspirations. 
 

 

mmmm...I don't think it has to be quite so sophisticated. Just RezImmunity is enough.

That way they can still use powers like Unrelenting or Phoenix Rising prior to defeat.
 

13 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

I mean, I can only think of two possible situations for what happens during "permadeath".

+ One is that whenever the toon dies things get "paused" temporarily - the toon is stuck in a state where nothing can bring them back to life; but their body hangs around (if that doesn't make good "Vengeance" fodder I don't know what would!) and the player can still type in chat etc to say farewell before they eventually timeout and their character gets wiped. Potentially at this point the player might be permitted to choose to "chicken out" and forever disable Hardcore Mode and continue as a regular player [EDIT: which upon further reflection would allow the badge-gatherers a way to get to level 50 as a 'hardcore mode' player before intentionally dying + choosing the chicken out option and starting to farm their debt badges…]

+ The other is that as soon as the toon dies they instantly get deposited back on the Character Selection screen. No hanging around. No chance to activate Inspirations or get rezzed. No chance for Teammates to Vengeance your body or commiserate with you. Gone. Immediate game over.

The first would definitely need HC to implement some way of disabling rez effects both intentional (self rez) and non-intentional (allied rez, getting enough EXP via teammate activity to level up, etc) on the toon whilst their body is still hanging around.

Again, disagree here. They should be able to stay logged in, defeated, unable to rez...but still able to give me their stuff.

Edited Sunday at 12:50 AM by Wavicle

[Maelwys]

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Won't happen. Devs already said they won't go through the nightmare of setting that up again. Way I see it, is if Hard Core/Iron Man mode is added, leave the power sets alone. Player already say they skip the rezzes anyway, so nothing changes. And when that character is defeated, it immediately gets logged out of the game and deleted by the game.

That'd certainly require a heck of a lot less attention from the powers devs; but it gives me the jeebies thinking about all the scenarios where a lowbie toon on a TF could die to splash damage from someone else's fight and then get dumped straight to "game over" without even knowing how they died or being able to check the combat log (let alone being able to bitch about it to the offending teammate!) 🤣

[Maelwys]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

They should be able to stay logged in, defeated, unable to rez...but still able to give me their stuff.