Blaster Epic Pool Def/Resist Toggles

[srmalloy]

13 hours ago, Jacke said:

And @Icecomet's thought on making the first 3 powers T1, similar to the Travel Pools (and should be spread to the non-Travel Pools), is a way to implement this thread's proposal without upsetting existing builds.

...at least, if you ignore the people who took the T1 power in a pool to be able to choose the T2 defense/resist toggle, and as a result have this possibly unwanted power taking up space in their build that they would have been able to use elsewhere if the described proposal had been available.

[FupDup]

5 hours ago, srmalloy said:

...at least, if you ignore the people who took the T1 power in a pool to be able to choose the T2 defense/resist toggle, and as a result have this possibly unwanted power taking up space in their build that they would have been able to use elsewhere if the described proposal had been available.

Admitting that those prereq powers are not wanted in the first place is an argument against the status quo, rather than one in favor of it. 

 

Outright deletion or replacement of those powers tends to not go well, based on previous beta forum wars like Beanbag. And the status quo kinda sucks because certain pools are shafted for no reason other than that they were designed in an older era and never got updated to the new design principles of patrons and HC's new pools. Giving everyone a third T1 choice would be the lowest drama approach that lets people keep their meme powers if they want them, with the only potential controversy being "le power creep" that comes up anytime something gets buffed. 

[Stormwalker]

6 minutes ago, FupDup said:

Admitting that those prereq powers are not wanted in the first place is an argument against the status quo, rather than one in favor of it. 

 

 

Every power is unwanted by someone.  Every power that is required to enter a pool is unwanted by someone.

 

I have Boxing or kick on a large majority of my characters and very few of them have ever used it.  The few that have used it as a gap filler until they had enough recharge to make their proper attack chain work.  Having to take a power you may not want is not unique to Epic and Patron pools, and it it is by design.

 

In fact, this is not even unique to Pool powers.  My Claws/SR scrapper has Strike only because she was required to take one of her first two Primary powers.  She doesn't use it, ever, other than as a mule for two-piece Superior Blistering Cold, and she could have accomplished that with any number of other powers.

Edited 19 hours ago by Stormwalker

[FupDup]

5 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Every power is unwanted by someone.  Every power that is required to enter a pool is unwanted by someone.

 

I have Boxing or kick on a large majority of my characters and very few of them have ever used it.  The few that have used it as a gap filler until they had enough recharge to make their proper attack chain work.  Having to take a power you may not want is not unique to Epic and Patron pools, and it it is by design.

Two things:

 

1. I do actually think that Boxing and Kick should be improved, and/or a 6th power should be added to the pool to serve as a more useful T1 pick. 

 

2. Fighting as a generic pool doesn't directly compete against anything in the same way that epic pools do. There's no other generic pool that does the same things as Fighting, but without the Boxing/Kick requirement.

 

Imagine if we had a "Fighting 2" or whatever that had the same exact toggle powers with the same values, but you could pick the res toggle immediately and the def toggle after as the T2 pick. That would kinda feel bad wouldn't it? That's the status quo with epic pools. 

Edited 19 hours ago by FupDup

[Stormwalker]

8 minutes ago, FupDup said:

Two things:

 

1. I do actually think that Boxing and Kick should be improved, and/or a 6th power should be added to the pool to serve as a more useful T1 pick. 

 

2. Fighting as a generic pool doesn't directly compete against anything in the same way that epic pools do. There's no other generic pool that does the same things as Fighting, but without the Boxing/Kick requirement. 

 

First of all, Boxing or Kick is not a power I don't use because of its performance.  I don't use it because it's not in theme for my character.  No amount of "improvement" would change the fact that I'm taking a power I don't want for access to the pool.  Nor would it change the fact that I don't see that as a problem, because the pool is that way for balance reasons.

 

Which is, incidentally, the same reason I don't think the arrangement of the Epic/Patron pools is a problem.  As I've already stated a number of times.

 

Just because you think the order of powers in Epic or Patron pools requires you to take "undesirable" powers does not mean everyone who takes those pools thinks those powers are undesirable.  For example, I believe it was you (do correct me if I'm wrong) who wanted to put the Ranged attacks in the first tier of all the melee AT's.  That would then be requiring me on many scrappers with Energy Mastery to take an "undesired" power to get to my desired choice - the current T1, Conserve Power.

 

In fact, the very reason I choose Energy Mastery on so many scrappers is because I don't want to have to take an out-of-theme ranged attack that I would never use!  And the differences between the arrangement of the Epic pools allows me that choice which I would not have if they were homogenized!

 

Similarly, with Blaster Ice Mastery, one of the most cited pools in this discussion, several people in this thread have indicated that they find Flash Freeze - one of the two options to gain entry to the pool - to be a desirable power.

 

Just because you think the powers at the start of the pool are not good choices does not mean everyone agrees with you.

Edited 19 hours ago by Stormwalker

[FupDup]

1 minute ago, Stormwalker said:

 

First of all, Boxing or Kick is not a power I don't use because of its performance.  I don't use it because it's not in theme for my character.  No amount of "improvement" would change the fact that I'm taking a power I don't want for access to the pool.  Nor would it change the fact that I don't see that as a problem, because the pool is that way for balance reasons.

 

Which is, incidentally, the same reason I don't think the arrangement of the Epic/Patron pools is a problem.  As I've already stated a number of times.

 

Just because you think the order of powers in Epic or Patron pools requires you to take "undesirable" powers does not mean everyone who takes those pools thinks those powers are undesirable.  For example, I believe it was you (do correct me if I'm wrong) who wanted to put the Ranged attacks in the first tier of all the melee AT's.  That would then be requiring me on many scrappers with Energy Mastery to take an "undesired" power to get to my desired choice - the current T1, Conserve Power.

 

Similarly, with Blaster Ice Mastery, one of the most cited pools in this discussion, several people in this thread have indicated that they find Flash Freeze - one of the two options to gain entry to the pool - to be a desirable power.

 

Just because you think the powers at the start of the pool are not good choices does not mean everyone agrees with you.

The cool thing about the 3x T1 idea is that people who like to use powers like Flash Freeze get to keep it as if nothing ever happened. No disruption, no toys taken away. 

 

You didn't respond to my point about how Fighting doesn't really compete with anything, it's on an island all by itself (because other generic pools offer entirely different things, i.e. Teleportation Leadership etc.). Epic pools on a particular AT generally offer very similar things as one another, but some let you get to the cream filling a lot quicker without really giving up anything. We're not comparing an apple to an orange, we're comparing a fresh apple to a moldy apple. Imagine a near clone of the Fighting pool that let you pick Tough (or something very close to it) at T1 and Weave at T2. That's what the epic pool differences feel like. 

[Stormwalker]

1 hour ago, FupDup said:

The cool thing about the 3x T1 idea is that people who like to use powers like Flash Freeze get to keep it as if nothing ever happened. No disruption, no toys taken away. 

 

You didn't respond to my point about how Fighting doesn't really compete with anything, it's on an island all by itself (because other generic pools offer entirely different things, i.e. Teleportation Leadership etc.). Epic pools on a particular AT generally offer very similar things as one another, but some let you get to the cream filling a lot quicker without really giving up anything. We're not comparing an apple to an orange, we're comparing a fresh apple to a moldy apple. Imagine a near clone of the Fighting pool that let you pick Tough (or something very close to it) at T1 and Weave at T2. That's what the epic pool differences feel like. 

 

I didn't respond to that point because it doesn't counter any part of my argument, so I didn't see any reason to respond to it.  Though, actually, my two points about 1) the powers you think are undesirable are not necessarily undesirable to others and 2) the pools are the way they are for balance reasons pretty much constitutes my answer to that point anyway.

 

The "not cool" thing about the 3x T1 idea is that it adds more power creep to a game that does not need more power creep.  As I have already said multiple times.

 

EDIT:  Actually, I have an additional response to that.  You view the Epic pools as "competing" and having the same function.  I do not.  I view the epic pools as power pools that offer additional power options to your character with a particular unifying theme.  And as my example, since I'm best familiar with Scrappers, let's compare the Scrapper Epic pools. 

 

• Dark Mastery gives you 4 attacks (including two cones), all with -ACC, or -ToHit on them, and a ranged Hold.
  • 4 Damage + Debuff powers
  • 1 Control power
  • If you want to debuff enemy chance to hit to oblivion, this is your pool.
• Energy gives you an Endurance Discount click, a Regen/Recovery buff, a ToHit buff with -ToHit resistance, a really terrible ranged attack that nobody takes except for theme, and a cone with KD.
  • 3 Self-Buff (1 Click, 1 Toggle, 1 Auto),
  • 1 weak but thematic Damage power
  • 1 Damage + Soft Control power.
  • If you want to be Superman, or your build sucks endurance like a black hole, or you want to go Minimal FX For The Win, this is your pool
• Fire Mastery gives you a ranged Immobilize, a ranged Hold, a good ranged attack, a Res and Def debuff, and a Targeted AoE. 
  • 2 Damage powers
  • 1 Debuff
  •  Two Controls (with minor Damage, because Fire).
  • If you want Moar Damage, with some Control on the side, this is probably your pool
• Ice gives you a ranged attack, a snipe, two cone slows, and a Pet! 
  • 3 Damage powers
  • 2 Debuffs 
  • If you like damage and slows, this one will work.
• Psionic gives you a ranged attack, a snipe, a damaging cone, a Recovery/End buff, and a pet. 
  • 3 Damage + Debuff powers
  • 1 Straight Damage
  • 1 Self-Buff
  • If you like damage and slows but also have endurance problems, go with this instead
• Weapon gives you a ranged immobilize with -fly, an AoE damage and slow, a ranged attack, a ranged acc/toHit buff with -toHit resistance, and another ranged attack. 
  • 2 Debuffs (one with DoT)
  • 2 Damage
  • 1 Self-Buff
  • This one, much like many powersets targeted at Natural characters, is a mixed bag.

 

None of these pools give you the same set of abilities!  They don't even give you the same kinds of abilities.  They give you a choice of different ability sets, and you can pick the one you want.  They're not identical, and they aren't meant to be identical!  They are different by design.

 

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Stormwalker
elaborated on the nature of Epic pools

[Aracknight]

I kinda sorta incredibly like the idea of the first three powers in any pools (Power, Travel, Epic, Ancillary, Patron whatever) being available at T-1.  Hell, extend it to Primary and Secondary, since we already got a choice to take either t-1 or t2 in the secondary recently (Being forced to take Thunder Kick on my Tanker annoyed me greatly, so thanks to whoever fixed that).  First because I like the idea, second because I hate taking powers that don't even make it into my toolbar (Looking at you, Boxing), and third because think of all the people who'd shut the fuck up about it if we got it.  We could end the war and save thousands of lives lol.

 

I get the balance concern.  I get the power creep concern.  I get both these things as a general conceptual idea, however, in my specific application, not having to take a power, that I will never use, that i will not be getting a slot back for, to take another one-slot wonder like Fly or Warrior's Challenge doesn't seem to tip the scales, balance wise.  All it would mean is that I could fly without spending inf on a jetpack (maybe, I'd have to count my power pools), or taunt a single target running away instead of shooting them in the back with one of my epic/patron powers.

 

I'm not saying it couldn't be unbalanced by people more clever than I, I'm just not seeing it in my specific application, which is probably why I am so much in favor of it.  YMMV.

Edited 16 hours ago by Aracknight

[Stormwalker]

5 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

I'm not saying it couldn't be unbalanced by people more clever than I, I'm just not seeing it in my specific application, which is probably why I am so much in favor of it.  YMMV.

 

If a single relaxation of power restrictions happens in a vacuum, it doesn't seem like much.

 

The thing is, there have already been many relaxations of power restrictions.  And they add up.  This is why characters on Homecoming are on the whole quite a lot stronger than they ever were on Live.

 

Up to a certain point, that's OK.  I personally felt like the restrictions were a little too tight on live, and I've enjoyed having them relaxed somewhat.

 

The problem is, we're past that point already, in my opinion.  Which means each additional relaxation of the restrictions is another step too far.  And it really isn't needed, given how very much easier it is to put together any sort of build you might want compared to what it was like on Live.

[Wavicle]

Why have any restrictions on powers at all??

Suddenly it's 2003 again and we're in Alpha testing...

[Aracknight]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Why have any restrictions on powers at all??

Suddenly it's 2003 again and we're in Alpha testing...

 

If I can have the knees I had in 2003, I'm fucking in.

[Aracknight]

18 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

If a single relaxation of power restrictions happens in a vacuum, it doesn't seem like much.

 

The thing is, there have already been many relaxations of power restrictions.  And they add up.  This is why characters on Homecoming are on the whole quite a lot stronger than they ever were on Live.

 

Up to a certain point, that's OK.  I personally felt like the restrictions were a little too tight on live, and I've enjoyed having them relaxed somewhat.

 

The problem is, we're past that point already, in my opinion.  Which means each additional relaxation of the restrictions is another step too far.  And it really isn't needed, given how very much easier it is to put together any sort of build you might want compared to what it was like on Live.

 

I personally felt like the (far easier to get on HC) Incarnate system, combined with the (far easier to get on HC) fully "purpled out" builds are what tipped the scale more than the power relaxations.  I remember having to farm council missions on +4x8 to save up >2 billion inf for an enhancement I had to buy from a player, not on the market, that I can now get for 10-20 million or a hundred merits (also easier to get o HC) today.  I'm pretty sure it was a Gladiator's Armor Teleportation/Def PVP IO back when you could only get those in PVP zones.  Blah blah blah, get off my lawn, etc, I know.  But anyway, that's how I feel, anecdotally, about what let the horses out of the barn balance wise.

 

Edit:  which means I basically agree with your last point about the ease of making a build I guess.

Edited 16 hours ago by Aracknight

[Stormwalker]

7 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

 

I personally felt like the (far easier to get on HC) Incarnate system, combined with the (far easier to get on HC) fully "purpled out" builds are what tipped the scale more than the power relaxations.  I remember having to farm council missions on +4x8 to save up >2 billion inf for an enhancement I had to buy from a player, not on the market, that I can now get for 10-20 million or a hundred merits (also easier to get o HC) today.  I'm pretty sure it was a Gladiator's Armor Teleportation/Def PVP IO back when you could only get those in PVP zones.  Blah blah blah, get off my lawn, etc, I know.  But anyway, that's how I feel, anecdotally, about what let the horses out of the barn balance wise.

 

Edit:  which means I basically agree with your last point about the ease of making a build I guess.

 

Oh, that's certainly part of it, also, but I don't mind that part because those builds were always theoretically possible.  You just had to be really rich.

 

The power restriction changes, though, have made builds that were not possible on Live possible on Homecoming.

 

As one example, you can make a character on HC without taking your Secondary T1.  It wasn't always that way.  That opens up a power slot, potentially.  Little things like that add up to make it possible to make builds that were once impossible.  And that's what I'm talking about when I talk about power creep.

 

A little bit of it was fine.  Fun, even.  But too much of a good thing stops being good.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Stormwalker said:

Little things like that add up to make it possible to make builds that were once impossible.  And that's what I'm talking about when I talk about power creep.

It also diminishes the point/advantage/weight of taking a particular power set as a primary vs a secondary...

[Aracknight]

3 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Oh, that's certainly part of it, also, but I don't mind that part because those builds were always theoretically possible.  You just had to be really rich.

 

The power restriction changes, though, have made builds that were not possible on Live possible on Homecoming.

 

As one example, you can make a character on HC without taking your Secondary T1.  It wasn't always that way.  That opens up a power slot, potentially.  Little things like that add up to make it possible to make builds that were once impossible.  And that's what I'm talking about when I talk about power creep.

 

A little bit of it was fine.  Fun, even.  But too much of a good thing stops being good.

 

I guess I'm looking at it through the view of the lens that asks "Would it make it more fun" combined with "We survived getting 3-4 Powers back when they made Fitness inherent, so what's the big deal?"

 

I see and respect your point though, and thanks for giving specific examples.

[Stormwalker]

13 minutes ago, biostem said:

It also diminishes the point/advantage/weight of taking a particular power set as a primary vs a secondary...

 

Indeed.  Though that's more of a problem for some AT's than others (Defender/Corruptor comes to mind immediately).

 

Each restriction removed further reduces the collective weight of choices made.

[srmalloy]

8 hours ago, FupDup said:

Admitting that those prereq powers are not wanted in the first place is an argument against the status quo, rather than one in favor of it. 

Which ignores the "without upsetting existing builds" phrase in the text I quoted; changing the pools to make the resist/defense toggle selectable from the start means that the people who did take the T1 solely to get to the toggle either have to retain a now 'wasted' power pick or burn a respec per build to remove it and replace it with something more desirable.