Inherent Power Swift Unenhancable

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

Dear Dev team, recently I was perplexed and submitted a bug ticket for the inherent swift power.  This power accepts DO, SO & regular invention jump/fly enhancements but does not accept invention sets (aka allowed enhancements) like hypersonic.  In the discussion thread it was revealed that at one time the power did but because of a bug/abuse it was removed specifically for a stealth issue.  My inquiry then focused on why the dev team at that time decided to remove enhancement sets rather than fix the bug/abuse and could it once again potentially become enhanceable?

 

Here is the link to the original thread - thank you:

 

[TheMoneyMaker]

This is not a bug. Swift and Hurdle only accept basic IOs, not those with set bonuses.

 

Under "Allowed Enhancements:" and before the Buff/Debuff line, there would be a category for sets allowed if any sets are permitted. None are, so there is no such line in your image above.

 

The "bug/abuse" basically equates to the movement sets with stealth, meaning that if they were allowed in this category, a character would be able to have stealth permanently enabled without endurance cost of turning on a toggle. The fix for that is to disallow sets in Swift and Hurdle. That's all there is to it. There aren't a lot of movement sets, and you can still slot them into your Sprint, Power Slide, or Prestige Sprints as well as standard travel powers.

 

Edited April 22 by TheMoneyMaker

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

4 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

This is not a bug. Swift and Hurdle only accept basic IOs, not those with set bonuses.

GM_GooglyMoogly

A long time ago, in a place far, far away, the original developers removed the ability to slot Set IOs in the Inherent Fitness Power.  One reason was stated above: People were slotting one of the stealth procs and ended up not being able to complete escort missions.

 

Aka abuse and or bug!

 

The inquiry is now focused on can it once again become set enhanceable - please "read" before blindly posting! 

[Rudra]

29 minutes ago, DIGITAL_JEDII said:

GM_GooglyMoogly

A long time ago, in a place far, far away, the original developers removed the ability to slot Set IOs in the Inherent Fitness Power.  One reason was stated above: People were slotting one of the stealth procs and ended up not being able to complete escort missions.

 

Aka abuse and or bug!

 

The inquiry is now focused on can it once again become set enhanceable - please "read" before blindly posting! 

GM² did not call it abuse or a bug, because it was neither. It was a player mistake that should have been easy to see before implementation but players did anyway because they figured constant stealth was a good thing. Just because you choose to translate what someone said into something that person did not say does not make what you chose to translate it to be to be true.

 

(Edit: Just like 6-slotting your powers with all endurance reduction enhancements is something the typical player can see will not help them even if it lets them throw all their attacks without draining their endurance bar, the possibility still remains that someone could feasibly make that mistake for some God only knows reason. Slotting a stealth proc into Swift is basically the same thing, just easier to fall in to. That's player error, not a bug or abuse. In both cases, the player will run into situations where the assigned mission cannot be completed, but the stealthed Swift situation kept coming up whereas the unable to clear enemies situation did not.)

 

Edit again: You could have just responded that you weren't reporting a bug in this thread since this isn't the Bug Reports forum without digging yourself into that hole.

 

Edited April 22 by Rudra

[Rudra]

39 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

This is not a bug. Swift and Hurdle only accept basic IOs, not those with set bonuses.

 

Under "Allowed Enhancements:" and before the Buff/Debuff line, there would be a category for sets allowed if any sets are permitted. None are, so there is no such line in your image above.

 

The "bug/abuse" basically equates to the movement sets with stealth, meaning that if they were allowed in this category, a character would be able to have stealth permanently enabled without endurance cost of turning on a toggle. The fix for that is to disallow sets in Swift and Hurdle. That's all there is to it. There aren't a lot of movement sets, and you can still slot them into your Sprint, Power Slide, or Prestige Sprints as well as standard travel powers.

 

The issue was that they could not turn off stealth with the proc in Swift, so escort missions were impossible.

[TheMoneyMaker]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The issue was that they could not turn off stealth with the proc in Swift, so escort missions were impossible.

That's one issue.....the bug. The abuse of it would be the constant, no end. stealth.

[Rudra]

If no endurance being spent to use procs is an abuse, then the devs need to go through all the auto powers and disable sets in them. Because we can do things like spontaneously heal and gain a sudden surge of endurance without spending any endurance on that power the proc is in to be able to do so.

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

1 hour ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

That's one issue.....the bug. The abuse of it would be the constant, no end. stealth.

Your right, I'm just curious now if the devs would consider allowing it to once again become set enhanceable (minus any abuse or bugs) and for that matter why not the other powers like health.  Thanks for the input!

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

The issue was that they could not turn off stealth with the proc in Swift, so escort missions were impossible.

It isn't impossible to do escort missions if you have stealth or invisibility running; it just becomes immensely painful, as you're limited to moving about five feet at a time, then waiting for your escortee to follow you before you move again. I suspect at least part of the reason why sets were removed from allowed enhancement types in Sprint was to eliminate what would be an interminable series of "I can't get the hostage to follow me out" trouble tickets, where the GMs would have to investigate the character the ticket was about to see if they had a stealth IO in Sprint, instead of the smaller number of "I can't slot sets in this power that doesn't take any sets" trouble tickets.

[Rudra]

48 minutes ago, DIGITAL_JEDII said:

Your right, I'm just curious now if the devs would consider allowing it to once again become set enhanceable (minus any abuse or bugs) and for that matter why not the other powers like health.  Thanks for the input!

Health accepts enhancement sets. Most players I know slot Numina's Convalescence and/or Miracle in Health. The procs at the least.

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

17 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Health accepts enhancement sets. Most players I know slot Numina's Convalescence and/or Miracle in Health. The procs at the least.

I meant Rest - apologies.

[TheMoneyMaker]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

If no endurance being spent to use procs is an abuse, then the devs need to go through all the auto powers and disable sets in them. Because we can do things like spontaneously heal and gain a sudden surge of endurance without spending any endurance on that power the proc is in to be able to do so.

The stealth enhancements aren't a proc. They offer a constant effect, unlike the Performance Shifter +End bonus and similar effects that fire off a set number of times, so your comparison falls flat on its face.

[TheMoneyMaker]

1 hour ago, DIGITAL_JEDII said:

Your right, I'm just curious now if the devs would consider allowing it to once again become set enhanceable (minus any abuse or bugs) and for that matter why not the other powers like health.  Thanks for the input!

Unless they fundamentally change how the stealth enhancements work, I don't see this as likely to happen. And I prefer them working as they are and not being able to be used in Swift/Hurdle over the idea of seeing them changed. Imagine if the stealth effect did proc like other effects (Performance Shifter, Numina's Convalescence, Panacea, etc. You are sporadically stealthed when the proc fires but can't reliably predict when it will work? No, they're either always on effects that can only be slotted into toggle powers or there's just no point.

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

The stealth enhancements aren't a proc. They offer a constant effect, unlike the Performance Shifter +End bonus and similar effects that fire off a set number of times, so your comparison falls flat on its face.

Oh, so only constant effects like the +defense and +damage resist count. Got it. So just the armor set auto powers need to lose their ability to slot sets.

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

4 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Unless they fundamentally change how the stealth enhancements work, I don't see this as likely to happen. And I prefer them working as they are and not being able to be used in Swift/Hurdle over the idea of seeing them changed. Imagine if the stealth effect did proc like other effects (Performance Shifter, Numina's Convalescence, Panacea, etc. You are sporadically stealthed when the proc fires but can't reliably predict when it will work? No, they're either always on effects that can only be slotted into toggle powers or there's just no point.

To clarify I meant other powers such as Rest not Health.

[TheMoneyMaker]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Oh, so only constant effects like the +defense and +damage resist count. Got it. So just the armor set auto powers need to lose their ability to slot sets.

Well, since you are the developer here, I'll stand aside and let you go ahead and make those changes.

 

Go on, expert guy. I'm waiting.

[TheMoneyMaker]

I take it from your laughing reaction that this is not a change you're willing or able to make.

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

Gentlemen, I meant for this "suggestion topic" to be a much more friendlier approach - I greatly appreciate everyone's constructive input and feedback and I'm hoping the Dev team eventually weighs in. 

[Aracknight]

As someone who put the Celerity + Stealth in Swift on live on my Scrapper, i can say it did in fact make hostage missions very very difficult.  But, could Hurdle perhaps be allowed to take Leaping (but not Leaping & Sprints) sets and Swift take Running (but not Running & Sprints) sets to avoid the Stealth enhancement in Unbounded Leap and Celerity?   Might split the difference this way, given there's separate invention set categories for these things now.

[biostem]

Can they prevent slotting the stealth IOs in an auto-power without limiting the slotting of other IOs?  IMHO, if they could, they would have already.  One other option would be to fundamentally change said stealth IOs to instead grant a sort of independent toggle power that grants the more limited form of stealth, but frankly, not only would that require more work, but it'd force many many existing character to either respec or somehow lose the slotting of this revamped enhancement, (which in turn would upset people who took some sort of travel power to slot the stealth IO)...

[arcane]

If people want extra slots given to them by opening up the option of using Swift/Hurdle/Rest as proc mules, I wish they’d just be honest about it and state in the OP that they are looking to receive three additional enhancement slots per character. 

[mistagoat]

On 4/22/2025 at 5:24 PM, DIGITAL_JEDII said:

Gentlemen, I meant for this "suggestion topic" to be a much more friendlier approach - I greatly appreciate everyone's constructive input and feedback and I'm hoping the Dev team eventually weighs in. 

Unfortunately this what most suggestions here devolve into. No fault of yours, the suggestion forums here are just not a particularly friendly place. The Devs don't post or respond to anything in here but I'm told they do read these suggestions, so all you can really do is just put your suggestion out there and hope to see it in an update in a few years. It's happened but it's pretty rare.

[TheMoneyMaker]

On 4/24/2025 at 10:23 AM, mistagoat said:

Unfortunately this what most suggestions here devolve into. No fault of yours, the suggestion forums here are just not a particularly friendly place. The Devs don't post or respond to anything in here but I'm told they do read these suggestions, so all you can really do is just put your suggestion out there and hope to see it in an update in a few years. It's happened but it's pretty rare.

I think the issue is the suggestions are looked at like they're some kind of popularity contest to show how much interest the community has in an idea as a reflection of whether or not the devs should work on it, so when some people see something they personally don't like, they make it a personal mission to shoot those ideas down. To be clear, I don't mean to imply that this is how the developers see the suggestion forums. My understanding is that they do read here but probably have their own standards for deciding on whether to take a suggestion to heart. Probably something like "Is the suggestion cool? Would it be feasible enough to work on? Do I (one of the devs) want to work on it? How will this affect gameplay?"

 

I think a lot of the intense feels people get wound up over either for or against a suggestion borders on extreme behavior that might require paying closer attention by the GMs who moderate because sometimes people take or intend things too personally or take things too far.

[tidge]

Being able to slot mules into Swift (and other inherent 'running' powers) would make it trivial to add pieces for KB protection and Slow Resistance (so, not counting Swift, this would be 6 additional free slots IIRC). I don't think the devs are likely to make it that easy (via inherent powers) for players to get such things for a one-time investment in an enhancement piece.

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

Tri

5 hours ago, tidge said:

Being able to slot mules into Swift (and other inherent 'running' powers) would make it trivial to add pieces for KB protection and Slow Resistance (so, not counting Swift, this would be 6 additional free slots IIRC). I don't think the devs are likely to make it that easy (via inherent powers) for players to get such things for a one-time investment in an enhancement piece.

Trivial or not @one time (way back when) invention slotting was allowed and I'm only curious why it can't be once again?