The case for Savage/Dark Armor

[Sarkany]

Savage/Dark Armor is a highly satisfying, powerful and resilient combination for a brute. I'll lead off by recognizing that @Snarky is the forum's resident vampire expert and I welcome any input on the below generally and his specifically.

 

So! Dark Armor is pretty dang amazing with sky high resistances possible along with a fantastic self heal and even a defense boosting power.  It's also a great vampire themed set. Problem: it has very high endurance costs.

 

Savage blood thirst reduces endurance costs while increasing attack speed.

 

High fury affects Savage bleed DOT effects.

 

We do run out of slots by level 41, but that's fine as we can simply take Energy Mastery for further endurance and health regen. Superior Conditioning and Physical Perfection also provide handy places for the Panacea and Performance Shifter Procs.

 

I enjoy 2 slotting health with Numina on most toons for the Regen/Recovery enhancer plus a Health enhancer for the +12% regen bonus and the increased health recovery. I also enjoy 2 slotting Stamina on most toons with Power Transfer for the +health proc and the End Mod enhancer.

 

Put this all together  with softcapped melee defenses and you can run around at full blue bar, at no risk of death while dealing out solid single target and AOE damage. I'll note that I find 6 slotting dark regeneration with an accurate healing set is hugely helpful as it brings recharge down to 12 seconds while fully filling the HP bar with just 2 enemies hit.

 

Cloak of Fear is taken mostly for RP reasons, it's not necessary but fun to cause minions to cower. Soul Transfer Is also a fun RP power that you may use if your hot wife brings you cookies while you are playing and you stop paying attention to the game for a minute or 3.

 

I am considering swapping out cloak of fear for Assault, actually. I think I have the extra endurance to cover it and then it's adding something to the equation.

 

With that preamble, I propose the below as an optimized build.  

 

 

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Edited 17 hours ago by Sarkany

[Snarky]

I thank you for the nod!  I do NOT suggest taking (or investing) in Defense on Dark Armor.  The Fear and Stun cloaks provide a “faux defense” to deL with lackeys and your high Resistance (which i suggest you go deep on) combined with the best heal in the game gives you tools to tank AVs.  

[Sarkany]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

I thank you for the nod!  I do NOT suggest taking (or investing) in Defense on Dark Armor.  The Fear and Stun cloaks provide a “faux defense” to deL with lackeys and your high Resistance (which i suggest you go deep on) combined with the best heal in the game gives you tools to tank AVs.  

Clarifying question: is Cloak of Fear an auto hit? In short: is it giving all foes in melee range a -5% to hit debuff?

[Troo]

33 minutes ago, Sarkany said:

Clarifying question: is Cloak of Fear an auto hit? In short: is it giving all foes in melee range a -5% to hit debuff?

 

within 8' it appears so.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=brute_defense.dark_armor.cloak_of_fear&at=brute

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

 

within 8' it appears so.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=brute_defense.dark_armor.cloak_of_fear&at=brute

It has a crap accuracy of .67 on it.  I always build my Brutes (all of them but SS) with +to hit and +accuracy but I always thought Cloak if Fear needed the extra help.  

[Troo]

46 minutes ago, Snarky said:

It has a crap accuracy of .67 on it.  I always build my Brutes (all of them but SS) with +to hit and +accuracy but I always thought Cloak if Fear needed the extra help.  

 

ah nice catch.

[Thraxen]

I’d take taunt since you’re playing a tank class. But fuck it more damage!!!!

[Sarkany]

1 hour ago, Thraxen said:

I’d take taunt since you’re playing a tank class. But fuck it more damage!!!!

I'm not sure taunt is needed. And MOAR DAMAGE is difficult to argue with

[Sarkany]

7 hours ago, Snarky said:

I thank you for the nod!  I do NOT suggest taking (or investing) in Defense on Dark Armor.  The Fear and Stun cloaks provide a “faux defense” to deL with lackeys and your high Resistance (which i suggest you go deep on) combined with the best heal in the game gives you tools to tank AVs.  

Ok! So! I've been playing around in mids to try to juice some protection at the expense of defense.

 

The most obvious way is to ditch both leaping and leadership pools and go for Rune of Protection, I guess? I can still attain 39% melee defense (which cloak of fear then effectively softcaps? accuracy on +4 is at 54%) and smash/lethal resist at 84% without ROP. All other resists are 400 basis points higher without ROP. 

 

And naturally 1 out of every 3 minutes has ROP up with capped out resistances almost across the board.

 

Ah! I'll add: looks like the below is losing some accuracy as well from these changes. Must be some of the sets I swapped out. Also, note how the typed defenses drop a ton. Not sure I am entirely sold on the changes. Maybe I'm missing more clever slotting approach...

 

Does that sound roughly right?

 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Sarkany

[Snarky]

55 minutes ago, Sarkany said:

Ok! So! I've been playing around in mids to try to juice some protection at the expense of defense.

 

The most obvious way is to ditch both leaping and leadership pools and go for Rune of Protection, I guess? I can still attain 39% melee defense (which cloak of fear then effectively softcaps? accuracy on +4 is at 54%) and smash/lethal resist at 84% without ROP. All other resists are 400 basis points higher without ROP. 

 

And naturally 1 out of every 3 minutes has ROP up with capped out resistances almost across the board.

 

Ah! I'll add: looks like the below is losing some accuracy as well from these changes. Must be some of the sets I swapped out. Also, note how the typed defenses drop a ton. Not sure I am entirely sold on the changes. Maybe I'm missing more clever slotting approach...

 

Does that sound roughly right?

 

 

Here is the last iteration I ran of Dark Brutes before I moved into Blasters Corruptors almost full time.  It is Dark Dark, so you will need to adjust if you use it.  It has (very slightly) better resists, with moderately better Toxic Res.  Maybe you can get some ideas...

 

Darkest night serves as dual purpose Debuff and massive taunt.  that kind of AoE -tohit is serious protection.

 

in incarnate content you will be getting layered Destiny Barriers usually.

 

Brute Dark Dark Darkest Night 1.0.mbd

Edited 10 hours ago by Snarky

[Sarkany]

44 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Here is the last iteration I ran of Dark Brutes before I moved into Blasters Corruptors almost full time.  It is Dark Dark, so you will need to adjust if you use it.  It has (very slightly) better resists, with moderately better Toxic Res.  Maybe you can get some ideas...

 

Darkest night serves as dual purpose Debuff and massive taunt.  that kind of AoE -tohit is serious protection.

 

in incarnate content you will be getting layered Destiny Barriers usually.

 

Brute Dark Dark Darkest Night 1.0.mbd 45.85 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks! Reviewing!

 

That Rune of Protection doesnt really do much for you, though, as your resistances are already so high. Feels like (if you'll countenance my mild impertinence) that you may have gone too far the other way and ditched too much defense.

 

That said... some helpful ideas on where to grab some toxic and energy resists...

[Thraxen]

2 hours ago, Sarkany said:

I'm not sure taunt is needed. And MOAR DAMAGE is difficult to argue with

Only needed to pull off others. Reduce range of mobs. Control aggro. But yes moar damage. Or just play a scrap. Cause moar damage. 

[Snarky]

27 minutes ago, Sarkany said:

Thanks! Reviewing!

 

That Rune of Protection doesnt really do much for you, though, as your resistances are already so high. Feels like (if you'll countenance my mild impertinence) that you may have gone too far the other way and ditched too much defense.

 

That said... some helpful ideas on where to grab some toxic and energy resists...

it is a 1 pick/1 slot "oh crap" power that can help you in situations that are difficult.

 

are you aware that resistance is it's own resistance debuff resistance?  so 100% resistance, capped at 90 of course, is still resisting ALL res debuffs.

[Jacke]

9 hours ago, Snarky said:

I do NOT suggest taking (or investing) in Defense on Dark Armor.

 

I am suggesting to invest in Defense, but only so far.

 

Back in Issue 7, Arcanaville compared the at-the-time 4 protection Secondaries on Scrappers and considered Dark Armor the most survivable.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120905195532/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115310

 

Because Dark Armor had good values of all 3 protections, enough to be more survivable than Invulnerability, Regeneration, and Super Reflexes in Issue 7.

• Defense
• Resists
• Heals and Regen

Boosting Defense can help, if it isn't done to the point it hurts other goals for the build too much.  Know that without Defense Debuff Resistance (available to most builds only with Ageless Radial Destiny Incarnate Power), some mobs will strip the Toon's Defense away in part or in whole.  But also know that the mobs will have to strip more before the Defense is in negative values and the mobs are now at the 95% ToHit cap.

 

 

[Snarky]

12 minutes ago, Jacke said:

 

I am suggesting to invest in Defense, but only so far.

 

Back in Issue 7, Arcanaville compared the at-the-time 4 protection Secondaries on Scrappers and considered Dark Armor the most survivable.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120905195532/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115310

 

Because Dark Armor had good values of all 3 protections, enough to be more survivable than Invulnerability, Regeneration, and Super Reflexes in Issue 7.

• Defense
• Resists
• Heals and Regen

Boosting Defense can help, if it isn't done to the point it hurts other goals for the build too much.  Know that without Defense Debuff Resistance (available to most builds only with Ageless Radial Destiny Incarnate Power), some mobs will strip the Toon's Defense away in part or in whole.  But also know that the mobs will have to strip more before the Defense is in negative values and the mobs are now at the 95% ToHit cap.

 

 

...  i am desperately trying to understand.  the only native defense Dark has is a minimal amount in Cloak of Darkness.  But.. let us put aside that question. 

 

The reason I dislike Defense on Dark is two-fold.  1) Defense, while the premier Protection in our game, is a 1 trick pony.  pass/fail.  2) Dark has no Defense Debuff Resistance.

 

Here is my "boilerplate" opinion on Dark Armor Brutes... I think Dark Dark reaches its ultimate on the Brute.  It is easier to be survivable on the Tank but achievable on the Brute.  Like almost same survivability.  Then there is the fact that the Dark Armor “Tanks” really poorly.  Not in survivability, but in design.  Part of the survivability of Dark is the stealth field.  In survivability Def>Res>Heal.  Dark literally stands this on its head.   No defense or nearly none.  No defenses debuff resistance so worthless to build.  Instead Stealth, two toggles that do crowd control, massive to hit debuffs, and the best heal in the game.   But that stealth, non suppressed stealth.  Bad from a Tanker perspective.  Great on a Brute

 

You have to PLAY Dark Armor.  It is not Stone or Invulnerability.  You are a Bishop on the Chess Board.  On your color (Black, of course) you F-ing RULE.  USE the stealth, it does not suppress.  Be aware of how your powers are affecting the mobs.  Are they being feared?  Stunned?  then they are NOT attacking you!  DEFENSE!!!!!!!   Play each fight to win, be engaged, plan ahead.  Dark is not a stupid persons armor.  I know you are not stupid, but many gamers want to "chill baby, I'm on my unstoppable Brute!" and.... tragedies happen.  You have to work your butt to utilize the entire set to it's fullest.  

 

Defense is great!  Without DDR less so.  At the cost of ANYTHING that might strengthen the Resists, Fear Cloak, Stun Cloak, Heal of Dark?  Just cheating yourself out of more Dark so you can play like Invul.  (Then they strip your Def away)  You want Def?  It will be there on Leagues with Destiny Barrier (Which you should get!) Sacrificing good slots and build options for a few points...   I could say something about that.  Um, wait.  I just did...

[Sarkany]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

it is a 1 pick/1 slot "oh crap" power that can help you in situations that are difficult.

 

are you aware that resistance is it's own resistance debuff resistance?  so 100% resistance, capped at 90 of course, is still resisting ALL res debuffs.

Fair! I am.

 

Also, I turned off your incarnate selections and from what I'm seeing, these two builds are quite comparable (see my send iteration... takes on some of your ideas). Yours ends up with  more resistance and way better accuracy, while mine has a lot more defense (enough to make it meaningful and regen. I'm betting that net, mine is more durable. That regen is serious, especially with the extra healing procs. I also modified that second build to drop a slot out of Obsidian shield and add a Kismet +to hit enhancer

 

I also get more out of Rune of Protection  which I would run for every opening attack and on tough encounters. 

 

I think you have swayed me that my first build is less good than this new build. 

 

I'm not sold on dropping melee and s/l defenses entirely, the proc'd out savage leap and the high regen to attain your resistances, though, which is what I think I would need to do. to mirror what you got.

 

@Thraxen ha! fair! I just think with death shroud this character can pull in aggro and hold it just fine. If I'm on a team, it's good enough. If I'm not, then it serves no purpose. 

 

Got to this with some more modifications (and no incarnates selected and without ROP up):

 

 

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Sarkany

[Snarky]

10 minutes ago, Sarkany said:

Fair! I am.

 

Also, I turned off your incarnate selections and from what I'm seeing, these two builds are quite comparable (see my send iteration... takes on some of your ideas). Yours ends up with  more resistance and way better accuracy, while mine has a lot more defense (enough to make it meaningful and regen. I'm betting that net, mine is more durable. That regen is serious, especially with the extra healing procs. I also modified that second build to drop a slot out of Obsidian shield and add a Kismet +to hit enhancer

 

I also get more out of Rune of Protection  which I would run for every opening attack and on tough encounters. 

 

I think you have swayed me that my first build is less good than this new build. 

 

I'm not sold on dropping melee and s/l defenses entirely, the proc'd out savage leap and the high regen to attain your resistances, though, which is what I think I would need to do. to mirror what you got.

 

@Thraxen ha! fair! I just think with death shroud this character can pull in aggro and hold it just fine. If I'm on a team, it's good enough. If I'm not, then it serves no purpose. 

 

Got to this with some more modifications (and no incarnates selected and without ROP up):

 

 

 

 

Enjoy playing the Brute.  That is definitely the too priority.  
 

It appears we will continue to disagree about the value of Defense investment on a Resistance set.  👻

[Sarkany]

7 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Enjoy playing the Brute.  That is definitely the too priority.  
 

It appears we will continue to disagree about the value of Defense investment on a Resistance set.  👻

HA! 

 

Fair, friend, fair. Let me go solo an ITF at +4 with it and see what I experience. Maybe I'm way off base.

 

To get to what you hit there just resident, I have to lose all defense and regen advantage... meanwhile, I can keep that stuff and surpass your resistances for 1/3 of the time with rune of protection up.

 

I guess what I'm saying is: I think I end up with something more effective net.

[Jacke]

@Snarky, as for the effect of survivability of the small amount of Defense in Dark Armor, for i7 for Scrappers look at Arcanaville's analysis.  It's long and complex, but it was a factor.  That still applies.  Even when there's no DDR.  And the Defense for Tankers is even higher.

 

 

47 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Part of the survivability of Dark is the stealth field.  In survivability Def>Res>Heal.  Dark literally stands this on its head.   No defense or nearly none.  No defenses debuff resistance so worthless to build.  Instead Stealth, two toggles that do crowd control, massive to hit debuffs, and the best heal in the game.   But that stealth, non suppressed stealth.  Bad from a Tanker perspective.  Great on a Brute

 

As someone who stealths on all my Toons, I'm very well aware once you've aggro'ed mobs, they will find you no matter the amount of stealth you have.  Not until their aggro expires will stealth prevent them from automatically knowing where to go to attack you.

 

And the Stealth on Dark Armor Tankers does suppress:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_defense.dark_armor.cloak_of_darkness&at=tanker

 

In both PvP and PvE for the stealth effects, that last icon, red ball with a white horizontal bar, shows under what conditions those effects suppress.  They both happen to be the same:

• Cancel When
  • AttackedOther
  • HitByFoe
  • Stunned
  • Held
  • Slept
  • MissionObjectClick

Even without those suppressions, Tanking with stealth works.  I've done it.  Aggro the mobs with attacks or taunting, they will find you no matter how much stealth.