Brute or Tanker?

[Ultimo]

So, I created a new character the other day using power sets I've never used before.  I find myself a bit torn about what to DO with him.

 

The original character he's based on is one I made in the comics I used to make when I was a kid.  Basically, he's an alien warrior, phenomenally strong and tough. wielding a powerful energy blade.  In the comic, he was one of the most formidable villains we created.  I wanted the same for the character here.

 

So, I made him a Brute, Titan Weapon/Dark Armour.  At first, I was very impressed.  With Titan Weapon, he was a juggernaut, slaughtering foes with ease.  However, as his level went up, I found he seemed more and more squishy, until I found I simply had no choice but to reduce the difficulty to -1.  Even at that he's getting slaughtered constantly.  Every fight, even against as few as 3 minions, he is forced to slug down a dozen inspirations to survive.  It made me wonder what was wrong with Dark Armour.  Is it just not any good?  I had heard otherwise, but this experience was... disappointing.

So, I remade him as a Tanker, Dark Armour/Titan Weapon.  He's certainly tougher, but his damage output is laughable.  As before, by the time he defeated even three minions, he was on death's door.  Not so much because his defenses weren't good enough, but because his damage output was so weak he was taking more damage than he was as a Brute.

 

So, I'm torn.  I'm inclined to keep on as a Brute, he really ought to be doing terrific damage.  That was one of his signature attributes in the comics.  However, he's also supposed to be very durable, and he's just not.  Is it the Dark Armour?  Does it eventually provide some decent protection, or do I need to start finding ways to supplement it?  I've been tinkering on Mids, and it's hard to fit everything he needs into the build in a timely manner.  So... any thoughts?  Suggestions?

 

Is Dark Armour worth working with, or is it generally weak?  Is there a better choice?  I really wanted to try something a bit different, most of my sturdy characters are using Invulnerability or Willpower, and I can't deal with power sets with egregious effects, like Bio or Stone Armour.  I was willing to give Dark Armour a try for this guy, because it IS kind of in character, with a bit of rationalization (I rationalized that the people of his world, which has 5 suns, needed to adapt to control light and shadow).  The issue is the survivablity.

 

Titan Weapon is taking some getting used to, but I'm kind of enjoying it.  It requires a bit more attention to what you're doing, you can't just mash buttons as soon as they appear.  It might make be better at other ATs once I get used to it.

 

Any thoughts are welcome.  I'm really just kind of looking for feedback.

[Uncle Shags]

Needs more details. What level are you? What powers did you take/skip? How did you slot them?

 

-1 should not be hard. Dark Armor is great and should provide more survival than you're describing. 

 

You'll be fine with either brute or tank. The difference in toughness and damage between them isn't that much. Although it sounds like you like the brute more, so go with that. Dark Armor is great. Titan Weapon is great. 

[Psyonico]

I’m guessing you’re building wrong.  DA is plenty tough on both brutes and tank (aside from the lack of knock back protection).

 

show us a screenshot of your enhancement screen and tell us what level you are.

[Uun]

Dark Armor should be built for resist and can largely ignore defense. Tanks have higher resist values than brutes, making it easier to hit the resist cap (90% for both tanks and brutes). That's not to say you can't do it on a brute, you just need more set bonuses. DA's only weaknesses are to toxic and to a lesser extent energy. DA also has the best heal in the game, which should be up every 15-20s. Can't comment as to why your DA brute and tank are so squishy without seeing your build. My DA tank can go AFK surrounded by a full spawn of 16. 

 

While brutes have higher ST damage than tanks, tanks have better AoE damage due to the bonus to target caps and radii they get from Gauntlet.

[Ultimo]

Right now, the Brute is L16.  I've slotted him with SOs, and usually focus on defenses first, so each armour has 3 slots assigned, one endurance redux, two resistance.  I do the same on the Tanker.  I usually try to build for survivability, I figure I can only do damage if I'm alive to do it.

 

Actually, he just leveled, so here it is now.

 

Edited May 25 by Ultimo

[Snarky]

Most Brutes do not even start to mature until late 29s,  Dark armor is very complex.  Built right (and build resist, use the fear and stun toggles!) should be strong.   Your major enemy on Titan Dark will be your Blue bar.  Fix it any way you can, including base buffs at low levels

[Ultimo]

Interestingly, I've had NO issues with endurance on the Brute, but the Tanker was in serious distress in that regard.

So you get a sense of what I'm getting... here's the aftermath of a fight with ONE Luddite Crusader I happened across.  I even used my HEAL in this fight.

See how close to death I got?

 

[Maelwys]

11 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Your major enemy on Titan Dark will be your Blue bar.  Fix it any way you can, including base buffs at low levels

 

Theft of Essence: Chance for +Endurance in Dark Regeneration. Done.

 

(OK, Panacea and Miracle in Health help too, but I would have killed for the Theft of Essence set on my old Spines/DA Scrapper on live...)

[Biff Pow]

36 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

Right now, the Brute is L16.  I've slotted him with SOs, and usually focus on defenses first, so each armour has 3 slots assigned, one endurance redux, two resistance.  I do the same on the Tanker.  I usually try to build for survivability, I figure I can only do damage if I'm alive to do it.

 

 

I think you'd be more effective and having more fun if you put most of those slots into your attacks. You take a lot less damage when you defeat enemies faster.

[Maelwys]

Since Brutes get Fury; little/no damage slotting in their attacks doesn't cripple them as much as a Tanker. As such they're one of the easiest classes to level up (the easiest being a MM) if you're not throwing influence at loads of Procs and Globals.

[Psyonico]

You’ve added 2 slots to health and 1 to weaken Resolve… those would be better off as damage SOs in 3 attacks. Dead enemies deal no damage.

 

also, make sure you slot an accuracy into dark regeneration first, if it misses, you don’t get healed.

[Warshades]

10 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Right now, the Brute is L16.  I've slotted him with SOs, and usually focus on defenses first, so each armour has 3 slots assigned, one endurance redux, two resistance.  I do the same on the Tanker.  I usually try to build for survivability, I figure I can only do damage if I'm alive to do it.

 

Others have already pointed it out, but dead enemies can't damage you, so the faster you kill, the less damage you take. In terms of your slotting, I'm not sure why you're adding slots to health so early in the process. The only actual use out of health is if you slot the various health IO set uniques like miracle +rec, panacea +hp/end, preventative medicine +absorb, etc. Health has such a low base regeneration buff that boosting it does nothing for you, particularly this early in the game when your HP is low. I would've moved the 2 slots from health, the 1 slot from Weaken Resolve, and 1 slot each from Dark Embrace and Murky Cloud (1 end redux and 2 resist is plenty early on) to your attacks to boost the damage.

 

22 hours ago, Ultimo said:

The original character he's based on is one I made in the comics I used to make when I was a kid.  Basically, he's an alien warrior, phenomenally strong and tough. wielding a powerful energy blade.  In the comic, he was one of the most formidable villains we created.  I wanted the same for the character here.

 

Was the character based around darkness? Only reason I ask is that if you want something that's extremely hard to kill, invulnerability armor set would be more what you'd want to use. This isn't to say that dark armor can't/won't work, but it is a set that shines better with more investment into the build and IO set bonuses. Invulnerability is quite strong out of the box even without IO sets due to how useful a saturated invincibility when you're surrounded by mobs is.

 

Below is just a quick sample of slotting with SOs through lvl 20ish on a tanker, the values on the invuln/titan build is with 10 foes surrounding you to maximize the defense you get from invincibility.

 

 

At 50, with incarnates, set bonuses, etc, invuln can be made nearly unkillable. Below is a quick swap from a different secondary build I had to TW so disregard some of the power choices, but just an example of the values you can achieve chasing res/def set bonuses (this is with only 1 foe in range of invincibility, 1 SMoT proc, and the minimum 5% res/def from barrier core).

 

 

22 hours ago, Ultimo said:

So, I'm torn.  I'm inclined to keep on as a Brute, he really ought to be doing terrific damage.  That was one of his signature attributes in the comics.  However, he's also supposed to be very durable, and he's just not.

 

The one thing I will say regarding this is that the more you build towards one end of the spectrum, the more you sacrifice on the other end. Building towards durability generally means chasing set bonuses to further buff defense/resist values. Building towards damage usually results in ignoring some of these durability set bonuses in favor of partially damage procing powers and chasing recharge/accuracy bonuses.

[MonteCarla]

I've made a couple of Dark Armor brutes, one at 50 (Rad Melee) and one currently abandoned at 39 (Martial Arts)
They're both very solid and have 90% S/L and Psi resistance, 50%+ to most other damage types, and Dark Regen slotted for heal and recharge and the +End proc in there.

I've clocked high defences on both too, 44% vs Melee on the Martial Artist by stuffing her attacks with full sets of Touch of Death! 😄

The set shines in amongst large groups - who are stunned from Oppressive Gloom, taking damage from your aura, and feeding Dark Regen for your end needs.

You'll need to keep pressing that Dark Regen button when its up, but you've got a great layered defence of not taking much damage and having a big old heal on tap.

 

I don't think you can judge any tanky set by level 16 - they take the longest to mature. Baby tanks (including Brutes) are not very tanky, and you can only judge really by 30 maybe?

The essentials for me are:
- Tough to bolster your S/L Resists
- Slot both Brute IO sets for good resist bonuses
- the two uniques (Shield Wall and Reactive Defences) for +8-18% extra resistance vs all.

The guide in my signature has some details on numbers.

[MonteCarla]

To follow up on this - after reading this thread I took Mary Alpha (39 MA/DA Brute with 90% S/L resists) out for a spin last night.

Someone was requesting help with Nosferatu in LFG, and I signed up, and we beat his little EB ass, and then continued with this arc. The team of 6 had 3 Tanks - Shield, Rad Armor (he said he was testing a new build) and Ice Armor, a Corrupter, myself and a VEAT.

In the final mission we faced three AVs at once: Maestro, Requiem and Vandal. I took down Requiem and Vandal, and mopped up maestro at the end. Everyone else's health bars went up and down considerably, with a few deaths, while mine stayed rock solid, with the occasional blip being corrected by Dark Regen. Not for lack of aggro either, I taunted 2 out of 3 AVs.

 

I think the universe was trying to tell me how tough Dark Armor Brutes can be 🙂

 

I also took a peep at the other's builds and saw I alone had taken Tough. For these Resist/Damage Aura sets like Dark, Electric, Fire and Rad, Tough makes a big difference.

[Ultimo]

A question... Defensive Sweep adds Defense.  I wonder if it really DOES anything worthwhile?  I mean, the amount of Defense provided has to be very small, and Defense is pretty much worthless in small doses.  Would it be worthwhile to throw in some Defense powers, like Combat Jumping, Weave and Maneuvers?

[Psyonico]

It provides Smashing and Melee defense.

 

11.25% for brutes

15% for tankers.

 

so it’s a fair amount.  However, conventional wisdom says that DA doesn’t have DDR, so chasing defense is not worth it.

[Ultimo]

DDR?  RAM?  SDRAM?  What are we referring to here...?

 

More seriously... 11.25 isn't bad... perhaps adding in the Maneuvers and Combat Jumping WOULD be worthwhile...?

[Ultimo]

Ugh, I was going to check the numbers in Mids, but my old PC uses Windows 7 (my regular one, the SSD crashed, and it's in the shop), and Mids won't install on Windows 7, alas.

[Warshades]

17 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

DDR?  RAM?  SDRAM?  What are we referring to here...?

 

DDR is short for defense down reduction. Much like some power sets have -def debuffs that applied to enemies, some enemy attacks (particularly those that deal smash/lethal damage) can have defense down debuffs that will be applied to your character. DDR reduces that amount of defense down that you're hit with. So lets say that an attack does -10% defense and hits you, if your character has 50% DDR, you will only suffer from -5% defense instead of -10%.

Primarily, only defensive based sets get some DDR from their toggles, Super Reflexes getting the most and on tanks is capable of reaching 95% DDR. Most other defensive sets on tanks like ice, shield, invulnerability, and stone hit around 50% DDR. If I recall correctly, the amount of the DDR you get on other ATs like brutes, scrappers, sentinels, and stalkers ends up being a lower value than what tanks get.

[Psyonico]

2 hours ago, Warshades said:

DDR is short for defense down reduction.

actually DDR stands for defense debuff resistance, but the rest of what you said is accurate.

[Warshades]

44 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

actually DDR stands for defense debuff resistance, but the rest of what you said is accurate.

 

Appreciate the correction, my mind was on a different game that has defense down effect and got the 2 mixed up.

[Jacke]

We could always get it mixed up with Dance Dance Revolution.  😺

 

 

[Psyonico]

Well, cloak of darkness makes it so you can’t see the character dance, hence no DDR

[Jacke]

48 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Well, cloak of darkness makes it so you can’t see the character dance, hence no DDR

 

Thus the need for No-Fade-No-Pulse costume options.  😺