Any thoughts on Dark/Dark Controllers?

[GuiltTrip]

I have played many many controllers back in the day.  Naturally I ended up making one as soon as I got onto Torchbringer.  I ended up going with Dark/Dark as it was something I never played before as I think it was behind a payed wall just before the game was announced it would be shut down and I didn’t want to give NC Soft another penny.

 

So far it seems like a pretty decent combination.  The cone immobilize seems to narrow to be of use though as I was hoping it would pair well with the PBAoE stun.

 

Here are my initial takes on the powers so far (keep in mind I am only level 23 or so so far).

 

Shadowy Binds - Single Target Immob - might be useful for soloing if used for damage, but in a team situation there are better options.

 

Dark Grasp - Single Target Hold that obviously is a mainstay for all situations

 

Living Shadows -  Narrow Cone Immob that doesn’t seem worth it due to it not hitting large numbers of targets easily and providing negligible damage

 

Posses - Single Target confuse which barring a really annoying mob like a Sapper would not see much use unless in PvP,  but I think other sets are better suited for PvP in general.  I guess it could increase the speed of clearing missions solo at lower levels.

 

Fearsome Stare -  Great opener with its wide cone debuff and stopping aggro in its tracks if you or your team single target attack annoying foes

 

Heart of Darkness - pretty nice soft control which again can be a good opener as a Dark/Dark Controller with super speed.

 

Haunt - A great power to have solo, but on a team they seem to go pretty crazy and can cause groups to be added to the fight.  Also they are targeted so can eat the initial attacks if you like, but I always think control is a better opener.

 

Shadow Field - Your AoE Hold - another staple but as a targeted power you will want a bind and be selective on the placement - not as good as most Contollers main holds as it can be harder to fire off and then into a dark grasp for a boss hold opener.

 

Umbra Beast - I will have to wait and see but it certainly looks cool.

 

Secondary

 

Twilight Grasp -  Targeted debuff and PBAoE -  Just a wonderful power,  I think people over look the debuff aspect and are put off that you need to hit to heal.  But putting this on Auto on a AV fight does wonders.

 

Tar Patch - Another fantastic debuff.  You probably will not open with it as it is another targeted AoE which can mess with targeting, but it will make fights much faster solo or in a group.

 

Darkest Night - A targeted toggle debuff that is great on a team that knows to leave the anchor alone and great against any AVs any type of group encounters.

 

Howling Twilight -  I am usually not a fan of Rez powers as the goal is not to die in the first place,  But this one is a pretty cool one as it can Rez all your allies as long as a foe is near by.  Again with super speed and shadow fall you can get in close to the foes and bring back the team while stunning your foes.

 

Shadow Fall - Good toggle buff for a team,  only needed solo when you want to use it with super speed for invisibility

 

Fade -  I was saddened to see the hold gone but I understand why that is the case.  This is a pretty good team buff for tough fights but most likely not that useful solo.

 

Soul Absorption- Please oh please let this be as awesome as I hope it will be on a good team

 

Black Hole -  Skippable to the extreme

 

Dark Servant -  A delightful Pet that adds healing and debuff a and almost always behaves

 

Am I missing something or from my past experiences with the AT and similar powers accurate?

 

[Erydanus]

I've played a lot of D/D defenders and various controllers so I too immediately rolled one of these when the servers came up. Unfortunately he's on Torchbearer and I think I'm going to have to start over on another server so I'm not as far along as I was hoping.

 

I do think you are off on a couple points, but not hugely. The cone immobilize in this set (Living Shadows) is a little different. As you said it's a narrow cone so it's not great for a generic big group lock down. Other control sets more typically would be stacking a circular stun and a circular immobilize and this one is more surgical. What you want to use it for is to keep foes from running out of tar patch or running away with the anchor of darkest night. For that matter, you didn't seem too impressed with the single target immobilize Shadowy Binds, but aside from soloing damage it's definitely something to have handy to keep an anchor running away. I want my single target hold for a boss or special threat like a Tsoo Sorcerer, I want a 2nd tool to keep a 2nd threat or anchor from running away. Notably, the controller single target hold and immobilize in every set has 90% accuracy instead of the typical 75%, and the immobilize is mag 4! The AoE immobilize is mag 3, which means that the single target can normally pin a boss down if they don't have special resistance but the AoE can't.

 

Posses is amazing solo, not to mention the graphical effect is so cool. You literally turn the affected mob into a dark shadowy being temporarily. A lot of people don't care much for confuses but I love them, but obviously this is just a playstyle thing.

 

Now interesting quirk of the combo of dark/dark. There are actually 2 AoE stuns in this combination. Heart of Darkness... and Howling Twilight. I was just singing HT's praises in a controller post so I'll try to not repeat too much here. Howling Twilight can be used offensively. Completely aside from the rez, it has the same -500% regen penalty Lingering Radiation does, with the same 30 second duration but a longer recharge. But it also packs a 15 second mag 2 stun and mag 3 fear (the runaway kind - so using tentacles may be needed; it has a run speed debuff built in too though) and it's auto-hit.  This means you can reliably daze a bunch of minions with  it. Heart of Darkness, as a standard controller AoE stun, has 60% base accuracy,  is mag 3 for 18 seconds, and has the typical chance to crit for +1 mag for another 14 seconds.  So obviously, these powers can stack. If you hit something that's resistant to stun, or the inherent lower accuracy has Heart of Darkness miss, dropping Howling Twilight on top may overcome those problems. Or if you just need a second tool for a pack of dangerous minions like exploding Vahzilok, there you go. And as I mentioned it does have 500% -regen which you can augment further with the -50% regen in Twilight Grasp.

 

I can't really comment on the higher Darkness control powers yet since I'm not there. But from my defender experience I'm pretty excited to use this modified version of dark miasma on a controller.

 

I want to sing the praises a bit more of Darkest Night. This one of those high endurance cost toggles that turns foes into kittens. It was one of those powers that tended to be so expensive you couldn't use it well at low levels in the past, but now that we have Stamina at level 2 it's totally usable! To give people an idea of how effective this is, my character was soloing a Skulls storyline (painfully since they're dark resistance) and out pops Elite Boss Chernobog who promptly kills me despite my best effort to confuse his minions and hold him. But I had gained a level so while coming back from the hospital I trained up and I took Darkest Night. (I think I hit level 8 or 10 at this point.) Well ... I kicked his ass. Handily. I put Darkest Night on him and suddenly the big bad elite boss and his purple triangles was whiffing almost every hit and when he did land a blow it was well within what Twilight Grasp could heal back. From there it was just a matter of spamming all my single target stuff on him plus sands of mu and I won without much more than a scratch. Oh and important note: a QoL change in this issue has made it so when anchor mobs die, the debuff lingers on their corpse until it despawns. So no longer do we have to worry about an anchor being killed!

 

I'd also say you're underrating Shadow Fall a bit. Of course you want to mez things in the first place but Shadow Fall is really nice for getting closer to mobs and dropping those holds even though it's a partial stealth without superspeed. I think it's enough. It does have psi, energy, negative energy, and fear resist and a pretty good chunk of defense so it's nice to have it up in case you come around a corner and walk into a nasty. (It's even nastier for defenders because you can snipe with Moonbeam from within shadow fall at maximum range and well, get away with it.) Generally I think it'll be helpful for getting into position without trouble.

[GuiltTrip]

Oh I love both the toggles, and probably should have started you are crazy not to take them.  But if I am soloing and going group to group I never bother with them as I can easily lock down any 3 targets I bump into and I need all the End I can get if I am doing all the work.  You are of course correct that when sollowin big bass with triangles Darkest Night is a must have.

 

I certainly didn’t know about the toggle debuff lingering after defeat though.  That is amazing.

 

You are also right about the cone helping keep foes in the tar patch and near your debuff target.  But again solo they are not going to be moving at all if using the single target immob and hold, and in higher level teams I think the AoE Hold, Stun and Fearsome Stare does the job better.

 

In the kind of fight where Howling Twilights debuff and stun are needed offensive tools,  I think I would be more tempted to keep it up for the odd death that might happen.  But like I said usually I find Rezs a waste but that one is a keeper for sure.

 

Thanks for the reply, I think we agree for the most part which makes me think my initial gut reactions are correct, and you clarified to others the awesomeness of some powers I may have downplayed a bit to much as they certainly are favorites of mine.

[azamean]

Don't underestimate Fade, its an extremely powerful defensive ability.

 

Life Absorption really is as amazing as it sounds, I'm only mid-30s and using it on a regular sized mob triples my (and my teams) end/hp recovery and all I have slotted right now is recharge.

 

Howling Twilight is not a rez, it is an extra AoE stun that can't miss. ;-) Slot it for recharge and Stun!

[Tanker_Toy]

Any thoughts on Umbra Beast and how it stacks up against other lvl 32 pets for controllers?

[Trickshooter]

I realize the graphic effects may not look it, but Living Shadows is actually a wider cone than Fearsome Stare.

[GuiltTrip]

Interesting.  I will admit I am used to the version of Fearsome Stare in Dark Miasma and from years ago.  From my memory, it was a wide but shallow cone back then and that is how I have been using it.  And the graphics seem to indicate that still.  I may need to experiment a bit with this version.  In the teams I have been on it is hard to tell what is terrified and what is not as the numbers are flying about.  But I know Living Shadows is a narrower cone then i would like as after 28 levels I have seen it’s hits often enough.  If Fearsome Stare is narrower than it, I will drop that as well.

 

Another fun fact in I25 it seems you can’t sell SOs with a respect they are just deleted.  I aborted my respect when it said they would just be deleted so luckily I can respect both powers out if they are both that narrow.  Thanks for the heads up.

[Trickshooter]

Fearsome Stare is for both sets is a 45 degree cone with a 70 foot range. And I wouldn't drop either version from a build. It's just too useful of a power.

[Narninian5]

I've found it quite easy to get a huge amount of mobs in with the AOE Root. (especially in hallways). In my experiences  I actually get more mobs in with  Darks AOE than other powersets. It + fearsome stare is basically the bread+better combo for when I group.  I combine it with /cold over /dark though so the -to hit on all the mobs is hugely valuable to combine with the +def provided for the team. In most situations I value posses about the same as the single target hold, both stop an enemy from attacking us(slightly better in solo since it can add damage, and teams tend to prioritize kills on controlled targets for some reason :p). I find the visual much more satisfying than other powersets confuse -- basically its easier to tell in the chaos that they are confused and I can look for other targets to control.

 

 

 

 

 

[GuiltTrip]

Well I hit 48 last night.  The cones are wide enough, that I think if you are likely to be teaming I would certainly recommend both.  I still think if I was thinking about soloing I would prefer the single Immob over the cone to be used for damage, but from a teaming perspective Fearsome Stare into Living Shadows will be used when ever you are waiting for Heart of Darkness and Shadow Field to recharge.

 

I love the pets but they do seem prone to being overly aggressive, so on the maps where groups are close together and your team doesn’t fancy pulling I would recommend dismissing them.  However, while solo they would provide most of your damage output and the Dark Servant will keep the others alive.

 

All in all I think it is a really fun combo to play if you are teaming regularly.  If you intend to solo often you might be better served with another secondary.  I ended up going with Psi mastery for my Epic Pool and I think it pairs wonderfully with Shadow Fall and Fade to make the the Aggro you can get by being close for Heart of Darkness manageable.

 

Mind is better Pure Control and Fire/Kin or Ill/Therm are better at soloing.  But the Dark/Dark combo looks cool and plays well in most situations, and play differently then the other ones I have taken to 50.

[Erydanus]

Altitis has kept me from getting as far with mine as I had expected at this point but I do like it. It's fine for soloing though I think I'm going to try out the Sorcery pool's attack at least for leveling. Recently I've teamed up with an old buddy who is running a stalker and you know what? I used to think a controller with a scrapper friend was nice but HOO BOY a stalker is even better. Especially since I have some stealth in shadow fall we can both zip around the map and do precision strikes. He actually put out the call for some help last night, he was doing a sky raiders mish with a lot of ambushes and the waves were just too much. With the addition of my help we turned huge groups into cowering piles! He'd take out like 8 guys while I worked on the Engineer, who I at least kept confused to disable the others from getting his force field generator's benefit.

 

It's a very flexible spec!

 

Honestly though I am really struggling planning the next steps in my build and it's mostly because I want everything and that includes whipped cream and a cherry on top too. I really want to cram Sorcery into my build both for thematic reasons and because I like several of the powers, and I also want a lot of the Psionic Mastery epic pool and I just plain run out of power choices even with inherent fitness. I had regular fly already and was thinking I would get hover, but that's off the table now, the build is too tight. I've decided I want a more direct attack in my build and I want it now; my character has reached SO levels, and the base accuracy of Sands of Mu and Blackstaff are not cutting it -- like against Sky Raiders when they do manage to pull down a forcefield generator. I recently got the Haunt power and it is nice but the cooldown is too long. I need something to just shoot baddies with; in the past that would have been air superiority but instead I'm going to grab Arcane Bolt since my character is a mage. This also means I can slap Rune of Protection into my build as a personal panic button though it's displacing Fade temporarily to do that.

 

I'm going to grab a knockback protection IO and see if I can skip Rune of Protection and just tough it out to 35 when I can take Indomitable Will. If I can't get by without it, I'm not going to be able to take Heart of Darkness until 47. (Indomitable Will at 35, Dark Servant at 38, Mind Over Body at 41, Psionic Tornado of DOOM at 44). I'm also interested in taking Enflame at 49, I'm hoping I can change the SFX to mimic the ones used for Possess because sheeting my foes in black nether fire and letting them run around burning people is absolutely hilarious sounding to me and totally on-brand for this character.

 

So my thought was respec and swap regular for mystic flight and get Arcane Bolt instead of Haunt for now and see how it goes!

[Tater Todd]

It's an insanely strong combo and I ended up rolling one myself.  The utility is off the charts....so much so that I could write a paper on why I love Dark/Dark heh.  You don't see people requesting /Dark often but once you show off what you can do many on your team will comment on it's strength in versatility. 

 

I believe the only Powers I skipped were Posses and Black Hole which is a playstlye choice honestly.  Both powers are very useful especially Black Hole; which helps with situations like too many mobs are accidentally pulled or a surprise "Run kidnapper to exit" Mob Spawn.

 

 

Some of my proudest /Dark moments are

[*]Rezzing half of a Rikti Mothership raid with Howling Twilight

[*]Double Stacking Tar Patch

[*]Single-handedly "Tanking" and AV with /Dark only to follow up with a Double Tar Patch and a Double Ice Storm and Blizzard to add insult to injury

 

:D

[GuiltTrip]

I still feel Haunt is a better option than a single target attack for soloing,  but If something fits with a theme go with it, as there is plenty of awesome to go around in the sets, so no need to worry about min/maxing everything.

 

To me Possess is a splash power.  I only use it on those Enemies you really don’t want to miss out of the gate (ie Sappers).  I find it a better option then the chaos of the tornado, but to each their own.

 

Stalkers are amazing teammates as they also take advantage of bonus damage from Holds and sleeps.  Obviously the Sleep thing is a bigger deal to a Mind Controller.

 

Although this is my Controller thread, I can confirm Ice/Dark Corrupters are amazing to play if you want to get away from Controlling for a bit.