Acid Mortar and procs

[JayboH]

So if I slot it up like this, how does it mechanically work?  Does each of the ten shots have chances to proc all of them on everyone in the AOE?

 

EDIT:  this is on a mastermind of mine, but I thought I would ask here.

Edited July 3 by JayboH

[Psylenz0511]

My concern is that acid mortar may be treated as a pet and only proc in the AoE on casting the pet

[Uun]

I can't find the thread, but @Carnifax has tested this extensively. They found that only the Achilles' Heel -res proc was worth slotting. 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

The mortar seems to inflict -def and to have the ranged AOE tag every time it fires. If the Achilles' Heel proc is worth slotting, then it seems counterintuitive that the annihilation -res proc wouldn't be.

Is there something about the mortar's status as a pet (or pseudopet) that gives a better proc rate to -def than to the ranged AOE tag? Or, is the annihilation -res proc percentage a bit too low, compared to the achilles' heel proc, for it to be a good use of a slot? 

[JayboH]

12 hours ago, Psylenz0511 said:

My concern is that acid mortar may be treated as a pet and only proc in the AoE on casting the pet

No definitely not, they definitely proc but I want to know how it is supposed to work.

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, JayboH said:

No definitely not, they definitely proc but I want to know how it is supposed to work.

 

Each Acid Mortar pet you have summoned (typically 1-3 of them) should have a 16.89% chance for each 3.5PPM Proc to activate per target hit, per shot fired (every ~5.5s). 

It's 14.47% for 3.0 PPM Procs; and 12.06% for 2.5PPM Procs.

 

Note that Achilles Heel is a 3.5PPM Proc which inflicts -20% res for 10s, and Annihilation is a 3.0PPM Proc which inflicts -12.5% res for 10s.

[JayboH]

14 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Note that Achilles Heel is a 3.5PPM Proc which inflicts -20% res for 10s, and Annihilation is a 3.0PPM Proc which inflicts -12.5% res for 10s.

Note that Annihilation is not in the picture shown.

 

Interesting though.  Worth proccing it up as shown do you think?

[Maelwys]

  

1 hour ago, JayboH said:

Note that Annihilation is not in the picture shown.

Yes; but one of the other replies asked if there was something going on which made an Annihilation proc less effective than an Achilles' Heel.
 

10 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

 If the Achilles' Heel proc is worth slotting, then it seems counterintuitive that the annihilation -res proc wouldn't be.

Is there something about the mortar's status as a pet (or pseudopet) that gives a better proc rate to -def than to the ranged AOE tag? Or, is the annihilation -res proc percentage a bit too low, compared to the achilles' heel proc, for it to be a good use of a slot? 

  

 

1 hour ago, JayboH said:

Interesting though.  Worth proccing it up as shown do you think?

It's worth an Achilles' Heel certainly... but you really want to get Acid Mortar ED capped for Recharge Aspect in order to have as many simultaneous mortars out as possible (since the -20% base resistance debuff stacks from different copies of the pet!). So procbombing it is not an efficient use of slots.

Personally I'd go with
  

at Endgame.

Each Damage Proc will end up inflicting an average of just over 2.2 damage per second before Purple Patch to 16 foes within a 8ft radius; which IMO is a bit more dubious given that you can't control what the Mortar shoots at. If you have plenty of spare slots? Sure, go for it. Just be aware that you need ACCURACY ENHANCEMENT ASPECT SLOTTED INTO ACID MORTAR ITSELF for damage procs to actually have a decent chance of hitting anything; despite the fact that AM inflicts -def. Your own +accuracy Set Bonuses and Tactics and Kismet will only apply to the very first shot/tick.
 

Edited July 5 by Maelwys

[JayboH]

39 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

  

Yes; but one of the other replies asked if there was something going on which made an Annihilation proc less effective than an Achilles' Heel.
 

  

 

It's worth an Achilles' Heel certainly... but you really want to get Acid Mortar ED capped for Recharge Aspect in order to have as many simultaneous mortars out as possible (since the -20% base resistance debuff stacks from different copies of the pet!). So procbombing it is not an efficient use of slots.

Personally I'd go with
  

at Endgame.

Each Damage Proc will end up inflicting an average of just over 2.2 damage per second before Purple Patch to 16 foes within a 8ft radius; which IMO is a bit more dubious given that you can't control what the Mortar shoots at. If you have plenty of spare slots? Sure, go for it. Just be aware that you need ACCURACY ENHANCEMENT ASPECT SLOTTED INTO ACID MORTAR ITSELF for damage procs to actually have a decent chance of hitting anything; despite the fact that AM inflicts -def. Your own +accuracy Set Bonuses and Tactics and Kismet will only apply to the very first shot/tick.
 

74.4% Recharge with enhancements, 151.25% global with Hasten.

1.41 Accuracy with enhancements, 1.39% Accuracy Bonus, ToHit Bonus at 86.81%.  

 

How is that?
 

I have a Ragnorok Acc/Rech in it.

Edited July 5 by JayboH

[Maelwys]

36 minutes ago, JayboH said:

74.4% Recharge with enhancements, 151.25% global with Hasten.
I have a Ragnorok Acc/Rech in it.

I make that about 27.6s recharge; so a 30.5 cycle time.
Each Acid Mortar stays out for 60s; and their attack has a 5.5s cycle time and its debuff lasts for 20s; so best case each mortar will be inflicting -20% res for ~75s.
75/30.5 = 2.46; so as it is against a single tough target (like an GM/Pylon) you'll be inflicting an average of -49.2% res debuff over time.
My own (long since shelved) Bots/Traps has the slotting I posted above in Acid Mortar, plus 182.5% Global Recharge = 23.82s recharge time and 26.724s cycle time. 75/26.724 = 2.81; so against a single tough target (like an GM/Pylon) they'll be inflicting an average of -56.2% res debuff over time.
Personally I'd rate an extra -7% average res over an extra few DPS from damage procs.

However much more concerning to me would be the fact that you're apparently getting "74.4% recharge with enhancements" in Acid Mortar with just a single Acc/Rech enhancement; as that indicates you're not using a Musculature Alpha but rather something with +33% rech like Spiritual Radial. Which is not exactly optimal, especially on a MM.
Go Musculature Core and slot an extra Lv50+5 Rech IO in Acid Mortar (e.g. Ragnarok 50+5 Acc/Rech, 50+5 Rech, Achilles' Heel Proc) and use the saved slots elsewhere.
 

Edited July 5 by Maelwys

[JayboH]

36 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

I make that about 27.6s recharge; so a 30.5 cycle time.
Each Acid Mortar stays out for 60s; and their attack has a 5.5s cycle time and its debuff lasts for 20s; so best case each mortar will be inflicting -20% res for ~75s.
75/30.5 = 2.46; so as it is against a single tough target (like an GM/Pylon) you'll be inflicting an average of -49.2% res debuff over time.
My own (long since shelved) Bots/Traps has the slotting I posted above in Acid Mortar, plus 182.5% Global Recharge = 23.82s recharge time and 26.724s cycle time. 75/26.724 = 2.81; so against a single tough target (like an GM/Pylon) they'll be inflicting an average of -56.2% res debuff over time.
Personally I'd rate an extra -7% average res over an extra few DPS from damage procs.

However much more concerning to me would be the fact that you're apparently getting "74.4% recharge with enhancements" in Acid Mortar with just a single Acc/Rech enhancement; as that indicates you're not using a Musculature Alpha but rather something with +33% rech like Spiritual Radial. Which is not exactly optimal, especially on a MM.
Go Musculature Core and slot an extra Lv50+5 Rech IO in Acid Mortar (e.g. Ragnarok 50+5 Acc/Rech, 50+5 Rech, Achilles' Heel Proc) and use the saved slots elsewhere.
 

Yeah but it's Agility Core instead - Traps on MM is end hungry since recharge is such a big deal for that set.  The +def is nice for Maneuvers, FFG, and Enforcer Maneuvers (plus my Scorpion Shield.)  

 

EDIT:  attached a very old build file

Super Punx 3.mxd

Edited July 5 by JayboH

[Maelwys]

46 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Yeah but it's Agility Core instead - Traps on MM is end hungry since recharge is such a big deal for that set.  The +def is nice for Maneuvers, FFG, and Enforcer Maneuvers (plus my Scorpion Shield.)  

 

EDIT:  attached a very old build file

Super Punx 3.mxd 5.06 kB · 0 downloads

I make that 46.2% S/L Defense for you and 55.2% Def for your henchmen; without Agility Core or Barrier up. So you're waaaaaaaay overshooting.

I mained a Bot/Traps redside for years. /Traps is most definitely not an Endurance Heavy set unless you're purposely spamming Web Grenade and Toebombing TripMine.
On the above build; using Acid Mortar and Poison Trap on Cooldown will be costing you only 0.535+0.732=1.267 End/Sec so is not a major drain.
The additional EndMod you're gaining from Agility Core (and even then you could be using Musculature RADIAL) is granting you a mere +0.17 End/Sec so you'd be much better off just grabbing your passive +End accolades and occasionally standing in your own Triage Beacon (for Panacea procs) if needed.

Without swapping the power picks around; personally I'd go with something like this instead:
Super Punx 3a.mbd

Poison Trap from /Traps doesn't proc well either; and TripMine can't activate damage procs before it self destructs. Currently the only power it has that is even slightly worth considering procbombing is Caltrops; and even then on a MM personally I'd rather go with -MovementSpeed in Caltrops and proc up the henchmen instead.

[JayboH]

8 hours ago, Maelwys said:

I make that 46.2% S/L Defense for you and 55.2% Def for your henchmen; without Agility Core or Barrier up. So you're waaaaaaaay overshooting.

 

Incarnate content softcaps are what again?  I had this build before the shutdown in 2012 and I can't remember.  I do use Web Grenade and Web Envelope often, plus the (admittedly paltry) Spectral Radial Flawless Interface that has a chance to immobilze, all for the burn patches (which is nice for caltrops too I guess.)

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, JayboH said:

Incarnate content softcaps are what again?

Foes in Incarnate and baseline Advanced Difficulty content have 63.75% Base hit chance instead of 50%. 0.95-(1-0.6375)= 0.5875; so 58.75% Defense.
However as soon as you start playing anything above 1-star they gain additional +ToHit (+10% in 2-star, +20% in 3-star, +30% in 4-star)
And Defense Debuffs are very much a thing in that sort of content (and /Traps has zero Defense Debuff Resistance).
But all that also discounts buffs from Teammates and Incarnates - on teams it is very common to have a few copies of Maneuvers running and/or Barriers cycling.

In fact; most of the min/max builders out there will not even bother hitting 45% Defence unless their character has close to 100% Defence Debuff Resistance. Instead, stacking damage output becomes the main goal; with perhaps 15-25% Defence gained from low-hanging fruit like Combat Jumping and the +3% Def Globals. However on a Thug/Traps MM both you and your henchmen will be gaining a fair amount of +Defence whether you choose to stack it or not; so there is much less of a performance tradeoff from pushing it up to the 45% mark. Pushing it higher is largely pointless given that typing "/AH" and the global email system exists - just email yourself a bunch of these or these for those extremely few occasions when you want to solo an incarnate AV or a roaming GM and popping Barrer Core Destiny + Support Core Hybrid for some reason isn't good enough.

So in most cases aiming for "45% def for both you and your henchmen, before Destiny and Hybrid" is going to be the way to go on a Thugs/Traps. That will mean you will be softcapped in regular content (at least until you encounter Defense Debuffs; which aren't as worrisome on a MM with Bodyguard Mode; let alone on a /Traps with both Mez protection and oodles of CC) and more importantly it also allows you to focus much less on stacking +defense and much more on stacking -res debuffs and damage output. Even if you don't subscribe to the "faster cleartimes are better" meta... dead mobs can't hurt you! 😉
 

  

1 hour ago, JayboH said:

 I had this build before the shutdown in 2012 and I can't remember.  I do use Web Grenade and Web Envelope often, plus the (admittedly paltry) Spectral Radial Flawless Interface that has a chance to immobilze, all for the burn patches (which is nice for caltrops too I guess.)

 

FWIW the only Interface procs worth a damn (especially on MMs!) are the ones that inflict a DoT.
Spectral Radial isn't too bad; but most efficient is Reactive Radial for regular mobs; and Degenerative Radial for AVs and GMs.

Damage Proc mechanics have changed a LOT since shutdown; Caltrops and Poison Trap used to be insane... but they're a lot tamer now. Slotting the henchmen up for damage procs (after figuring out how many of their attacks can inherit the enhancement set that each proc belongs to!) tends to give much better results.
 

Edited July 5 by Maelwys

[JayboH]

4 hours ago, Maelwys said:

FWIW the only Interface procs worth a damn (especially on MMs!) are the ones that inflict a DoT.
Spectral Radial isn't too bad; but most efficient is Reactive Radial for regular mobs; and Degenerative Radial for AVs and GMs.

If we keep telling people to only grab Reactive or Degen, they might as well only get the tier 3 DoT since I recall only 4 can stack on the debuff side.  Spectral is a moderate DoT unlike Cognitive and Degen if I am remembering correctly.

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, JayboH said:

If we keep telling people to only grab Reactive or Degen, they might as well only get the tier 3 DoT since I recall only 4 can stack on the debuff side.  Spectral is a moderate DoT unlike Cognitive and Degen if I am remembering correctly.

 

The T4 has "75% chance for X plus 25% for Y".

The T3 has "75% chance for X" or "50% chance for X plus 25% chance for Y".

 

Since MM henchmen make an awful lot of attacks in a short space of time, the Debuff stacks will become saturated even with just a 25% activation chance. Hence the T4 Radial "75% chance of DoT plus 25% chance of Debuff".

 

The Debuffs can stack up to 4 times, the DoTs up to 8 (with a "Chance To Cancel" so they often don't reach full duration). Reactive and Spectral and Preemptive deal 13.3862 per tick, Degenerative and Cognitive deal 10.709 per tick (power short descriptions are often misleading at best - terms like "moderate" and "minor" don't tell the full picture so you really need to check the detailed effects and CoDv2)

The secondary effects make the difference: -10% res for Reactive is effective against everything, but -4000 MaxHP from Degenerative is much better vs a big bag of hit points (anything over Elite Boss gets -1000 per stack instead of -3.5%).

 

Spectral is fine if you're after Immobilize rather than Killspeed. But the effect is only Mag2 (minions) and due to Purple Patch that 4.3s duration per stack will become 2.8s vs anything worth fighting so it's less reliable at rooting LTs and Bosses. However with access to Web Grenade, Web Envelope and Caltrops... I can't really picture a viable use case.

[JayboH]

16 hours ago, Maelwys said:

 

Spectral is fine if you're after Immobilize rather than Killspeed. But the effect is only Mag2 (minions) and due to Purple Patch that 4.3s duration per stack will become 2.8s vs anything worth fighting so it's less reliable at rooting LTs and Bosses. However with access to Web Grenade, Web Envelope and Caltrops... I can't really picture a viable use case.

The immobilize is for 'Killspeed' due to keeping mobs in the burn patches.  

 

16 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Since MM henchmen make an awful lot of attacks in a short space of time

Wouldn't that also be the case for stacking Mag2 attacks on LTs and Bosses?  Sounds to me it would break mag levels pretty fast if you are correct.  x8 settings make it difficult to keep them all locked down even with Web Grenade and Web Envelope regardless of +levels, and you know they run when over Caltrops which again is another reason it's nice to stack immobilize.

 

EDIT:  by the way I appreciate this conversation very much.  I am learning a lot and I don't want you to misunderstand that I am against your statements - rather I am trying to flush the cobwebs out of my brain as the game is getting up there in age.

Edited July 7 by JayboH

[Psyonico]

26 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Wouldn't that also be the case for stacking Mag2 attacks on LTs and Bosses?  Sounds to me it would break mag levels pretty fast if you are correct.

I believe there is a bug with Spectral interface, @Jacke and I did some testing with a full team running t4 spectral on test and power analyzer showed some stacking, but even 8 players couldn’t immobilize an even level Romulus AV in the 3rd mission of an ITF.

[Maelwys]

22 minutes ago, JayboH said:

The immobilize is for 'Killspeed' due to keeping mobs in the burn patches.  

 

Wouldn't that also be the case for stacking Mag2 attacks on LTs and Bosses?

 

Caltrops can hit the Slow Movement cap by itself (it's -90%; which means you need -148.5 vs +3s. Caltrops inflicts -80% base, so you need at least 85.625% Slow Enhancement in it including Set Bonuses and Alpha) and you have Web Envelope and the forced root vomit animation of Poison Trap available too. The Arsonist's Firebomb is only up once every 17.584 seconds, which is more than enough time for your other CC abilities to recharge... so personally I'd consider Spectral's immobilize effect to be very superfluous.

 

Simply put, you're choosing between an increased opportunity to inflict Immobilize and an additional -10% resistance debuff on the very things your henchmen are currently attacking. From a build efficiency point of view IMO the latter is the clear winner.

[Uun]

9 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I believe there is a bug with Spectral interface, @Jacke and I did some testing with a full team running t4 spectral on test and power analyzer showed some stacking, but even 8 players couldn’t immobilize an even level Romulus AV in the 3rd mission of an ITF.

Unlike most AVs, Romulus has immobilize protection.

[Maelwys]

4 minutes ago, Uun said:

Unlike most AVs, Romulus has immobilize protection.

 

This.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=romans.romulus_base.energized_shield&at=boss_praetorianarchvillain

 

 

[Hedgefund2]

That's immob resistance, not protection.  I've absolutely immobed him with a /traps MM with web grenade.

[Maelwys]

24 minutes ago, Hedgefund2 said:

That's immob resistance, not protection.  I've absolutely immobed him with a /traps MM with web grenade.

 

It's protection.

 

It might be phrased as a percentage instead of as a Mag... but it's still "(-3.0 * Melee_Ones)% Immobilized" rather than "(-3.0 * Melee_Ones)% Resistance (Immobilized)"

 

To be fair, the protection it grants might be quite low; but consider its impact on a Mag2 4.3 second base duration Spectral Interface Proc. Even without a 35% Purple Patch reduction it's unlikely for those to stack up beyond Mag6 or so, and I think it'd require a Mag7 or above effect to affect Rommy.

[Hedgefund2]

 

Here's my VEAT immobing him 5 minutes ago, no problem, with WAWG.  Mag 3 protection is trivial for traps/web grenade to overcome.

Edited July 6 by Hedgefund2

[Maelwys]

Yeah that tracks.

 

No Immobilize resistance (100% base) but they're getting Mag3 protection from their critter rank (AV) plus another Mag3 protection from the shield, for a grand total of Mag 6 protection. So your Mag12 Immobilize effect from stacking WAWG still has half of it's original kick left after reductions (that red "-6") and so will work just fine... but even stacking Mag7+ should work.

 

Edited July 6 by Maelwys