How come Ice/ blast everywhere?

[Bukatti]

Now RV is full of Ice/  blasters , sentinels why Ice?

 

what did I miss? come back for 1 month, and in my memory Psy/ was the most popular in old days, now Ice/ ? why?

 

which issue buffed Ice/ ? or something made Ice/ popular?

[macskull]

Ice is good because of the number of damage procs you can slot. With the I24/I25 changes to the proc system (changing from a flat % chance to fire to a procs-per-minute system) procs are an easy way to raise your damage output. That being said, Ice isn't necessarily top tier. Psi is probably still better in a spike scenario because you can time three attacks to hit the target at the same time.

[JusticeBowler]

How does the procs-per-minute work? I assumed that was a downgrade since you aren't always firing the attack or whatever you put it on so you'll never reach those levels. Are you saying that if I fire a power once per minute I'm guaranteed a proc on that power when I do? If I fire a proc every 20 seconds and it is a "3 proc per minute" will I get a proc every time?

 

[macskull]

The current proc system is based off procs per minute (PPM). Basically a given proc has a certain PPM (like, it might trigger on average 3.5 times every minute) and to determine what the chance the proc will have to go off when slotted in a particular power, you're working with a few parameters:

 

 

1. PPM of the proc

2. Activation time of the power in question

3. Base recharge time of the power in question

4. Slotted recharge of the power in question (this ignores global recharge bonuses from IOs or buffs)

5. An AoE modifier, usually based on the radius of the power, to keep procs from being too effective in AoE powers

 

 

There's a 90% proc rate cap though, to keep some amount of randomness in there.

 

 

Here is a list of procs available and their PPM. The spreadsheet also contains a link to another spreadsheet which has formulas for calculating the % chance a proc will have to fire given certain parameters, and the % recharge you can slot into a power to keep a 90% proc rate. Note this calculator doesn't factor in AoE modifiers.

[JusticeBowler]

That's what I understand. But in this case understanding isn't helping me. Because you don't just fire one power continuously for a minute the process doesn't make much sense.

 

And I might not use a power for a half a minute, does that mean I've wasted 30sec worth of the proc not firing? And what if the proc "fires" on an attack that misses?

[macskull]

Procs per minute is defined as the average number of times a proc will fire over one minute if you use it in a single-target power every time that power comes off cooldown. Here's an example:

 

Let's assume activation time is zero because it makes the math easier, and that I use a given power every time it recharges with no delay, and I don't have any recharge slotted into that power. If I have a proc with a PPM of 6, and I use it in a power that has a 10 second recharge time, that proc should fire 6 times over that minute, or every time I use that power. If I use it in a power that has a base 2 second recharge time, that proc should still fire 6 times over that minute, but I used the power 30 times so it only fired 20% of the time. So you can see why slotting procs in your longer-recharge powers, and not slotting them for recharge, can work in your favor. It also means global recharge bonuses and other recharge buffs are more useful.

 

Now, you're probably not going to be only using the powers in the example I gave, but regardless of whether you're using that 10-second-recharge power every 10 seconds or every 5 minutes, the 6PPM proc should fire every time you use it.

 

If you're not using a power for half a minute you're not "wasting" its chance to fire. It is entirely based off the five parameters I listed earlier. Regarding procs if a power misses, procs are flagged with the 'CancelOnMiss' flag which means if the power they're slotted in misses they won't do anything.

 

To calculate % chance a proc will go off for a single-target power, use this equation:

 

% chance = ((Base recharge / (1 + Slotted recharge) + Activation time) * (PPM rating / 60))

[vegetableknife]

wait, with that formula can you then "game the system"

 

for example if you have a 15 second recharge power with 4 PPM proc, it should be 100% or so chance, but with global recharge you can activate the power way more than 4 times a minute but still have 100% chance to proc?

 

*cautiously unslots hecatomb acc/dmg/recharge from greater psi blade and buys 5 luck of the gamblers*

[Coyote]

wait, with that formula can you then "game the system"

 

for example if you have a 15 second recharge power with 4 PPM proc, it should be 100% or so chance, but with global recharge you can activate the power way more than 4 times a minute but still have 100% chance to proc?

 

*cautiously unslots hecatomb acc/dmg/recharge from greater psi blade and buys 5 luck of the gamblers*

 

You are generally correct, although to be specific, the chance to proc is capped at 90%

[JusticeBowler]

Procs per minute is defined as the average number of times a proc will fire over one minute if you use it in a single-target power every time that power comes off cooldown.

 

To calculate % chance a proc will go off for a single-target power, use this equation:

 

% chance = ((Base recharge / (1 + Slotted recharge) + Activation time) * (PPM rating / 60))

 

So what you're saying is the PPM is completely a factor of innate power properties that assume you are firing off that power continuously even if you aren't. So slotted recharge can't help since that will only decrease the % chance of it firing ... in fact it will hurt it because if I don't fire the power off as often as it is slotted to be able to I may miss a proc.

 

Look at it this way. If I cut in half the recharge it is going to drop the percentage chance on any given attack that the proc will fire to maintain the PPM. But if I don't take advantage of that attack as often as I have slotted it, then when I do fire it, I get the lower % even though I haven't enjoyed the max benefit.

 

This punishes slotted recharge and pays out on global recharge (from sets and hasten) which isn't figured into the formula.

 

So if I don't have much global recharge to speak of on a toon, I should put procs on powers that as closely match the recharge + activation time of the power out of 60 seconds. So if an attack is 18 seconds + 2 seconds base and the proc is 3 per minute I'll get it every time... its still up to me to hit the button just like anything else, but adding slotted recharge only lowers my percentage and if I don't fully utilize the power (every time I can fire it I do) then I'm out of luck.

 

There's no point putting it on a faster attack and obviously a slower attach will miss out as well. It is really about matching those numbers as closely as you can.

[vegetableknife]

You are generally correct, although to be specific, the chance to proc is capped at 90%

 

I am shooketh, thanks.

[macskull]

wait, with that formula can you then "game the system"

 

for example if you have a 15 second recharge power with 4 PPM proc, it should be 100% or so chance, but with global recharge you can activate the power way more than 4 times a minute but still have 100% chance to proc?

 

*cautiously unslots hecatomb acc/dmg/recharge from greater psi blade and buys 5 luck of the gamblers*

Yeah this is exactly why Ice Blast is so hot right now. Greater Psi Blade is a great proc-able power too since it's also a hold. You can do 2 acc/dam and 4 procs in Greater Psi Blade.

[macskull]

So if I don't have much global recharge to speak of on a toon, I should put procs on powers that as closely match the recharge + activation time of the power out of 60 seconds. So if an attack is 18 seconds + 2 seconds base and the proc is 3 per minute I'll get it every time... its still up to me to hit the button just like anything else, but adding slotted recharge only lowers my percentage and if I don't fully utilize the power (every time I can fire it I do) then I'm out of luck.

You're still getting hung up on the "if I don't use a power I waste a proc opportunity" thing here. It doesn't matter if you use a power every 5 seconds or every 5 minutes, the chance for a given proc to go off when slotted in that power will always be the same. Obviously using a power like that every time it's off cooldown will boost your damage output (assuming we're talking damage procs here) but you don't have to. Global recharge helps when it comes to procs because the PPM formula ignores recharge from set bonuses and buffs. To use the numbers from my earlier example, if I'm using a 6PPM proc in a 10 second base recharge time power with no slotted recharge, I should be able to use that power 6 times over a minute and the proc should fire every time I use that power (obviously still capped at a 90% chance). If I have 100% global recharge from set bonuses or buffs, that power is actually recharging in 5 seconds, but it'll still have that capped chance for the proc to go off each time I use it which means the proc will actually fire on average 12 times per minute.

 

 

Basically, it's easy to make the PPM system work to your advantage, and adding recharge from bonuses or buffs makes it even better.

[JusticeBowler]

You're still getting hung up on the "if I don't use a power I waste a proc opportunity" thing here. It doesn't matter if you use a power every 5 seconds or every 5 minutes, the chance for a given proc to go off when slotted in that power will always be the same.

 

Yeah that's what I'm hung up on. Because increasing the slotted recharge lowers that percentage WHETHER OR NOT I take advantage of the faster recharge of the power. It punishes me with a lower % chance even if I don't fire the power that often. It also punishes me for putting it on a power with a shorter recharge + activation than the % assumes.

 

I'm also hung up on not "wasting" a proc on a power that has a longer cycle than the PPMs (accounting for global recharge assuming I even have any, which I almost always don't). If I have two attacks, one is almost equivalent to the PPMs in terms of recharge and activation time and the other has double the recharge, the proc isn't going to make up for lost opportunities.

 

I know it seems weird, but all this stems from the use of the term "per minute" which gives the false impression that the procs are hard coded to give some sort of balance around how useful they are "per minute" when really PPM is just a catchphrase for "we give the proc a percentage chance to fire based on how often the base power can fire every minute." It isn't "this proc fires this many times per minute."

 

Originally all the procs were just straight % all "PPM" does is make that % adaptive to different powers recharge times to move the sweet spot from AoEs and quick attacks to mid-range single targets.

 

[macskull]

Well, it still is "this proc fires this many times per minute," it's just that it's a theoretical expression because you still need some way to determine a base chance for a proc to fire that isn't a flat % chance. I think I now understand what you're trying to say though regarding slotted recharge. If I'm understanding you right, your issue is that if you slot that 10-second base recharge power with 100% recharge you're basically cutting the proc rate in half, and that's true because if slotted recharge didn't affect the proc rate it would be kind of silly. That's how the PPM system worked on live for the procs that used it - only cared about base recharge time and activation time, not slotted recharge, and there was no 90% cap on its chance to fire. I24 was supposed to change that to be closer (if not identical) to the current system and apply to all procs.

 

 

Not disagreeing with you on where the sweet spot for procs is now though. That being said, even if you continue to use procs like you would've on live, you're still going to get some benefit from them, though in some cases it might not be as much as before.

[JusticeBowler]

Well, it still is "this proc fires this many times per minute," it's just that it's a theoretical expression because you still need some way to determine a base chance for a proc to fire that isn't a flat % chance.

 

I feel like I'm arguing, but I promise I'm just explaining my own confusion about this. The problem is that I was confused, not that I think you're wrong or anything. I just want to make that clear.

 

My point is that procs could have recharge times just like powers. That is, 3PPM could just be, "if the proc hasn't fired in the last 20 seconds and the power hits, execute proc" that would be what "PPM" really means. That's what it sounds like it means. That way a player would always get fair value from the proc and be able to expect behavior. Perhaps the devs like the randomness of the proc as a feature, not a bug.

 

It sucks to think that a -tohitdebuff I am counting on when I hit that AV the first time, just might not trigger even though I haven't used the power in several minutes before the fight. You see that's how my brain works. Chance is great for surprise, but ruins tactical thinking. If you use Broadsword, you start a fight in a big group of mobs with perry and not disembowel, so you can take advantage of the +DEF for the alpha and you "benefit" contextually.

 

If I have [Devastation: Chance for Hold] on a power I will have no idea if I get a hold or not, even if I haven't used the power in many minutes. Frankly that ambiguity ALONE makes the proc much less valuable to me.

 

Not disagreeing with you on where the sweet spot for procs is now though. That being said, even if you continue to use procs like you would've on live, you're still going to get some benefit from them, though in some cases it might not be as much as before.

 

You only benefit from them if they are better than something else you could have slotted instead. That's largely what I'm trying to judge here. Are the procs with all the maths something I "benefit" from and if so, in which specific situations are they actually a "benefit". It looks like the answer is yes assuming a player takes the time to match up the proc with the power rather specifically.

 

I was really hoping procs could help my Traps Defender, but given how heavily I'm slotted in recharge enhancements I think it won't work out how I hoped.

 

Of course, we haven't even talked about how procs do or don't affect pseudo pets like my Acid Mortar.

[Frosticus]

 

You only benefit from them if they are better than something else you could have slotted instead. That's largely what I'm trying to judge here. Are the procs with all the maths something I "benefit" from and if so, in which specific situations are they actually a "benefit". It looks like the answer is yes assuming a player takes the time to match up the proc with the power rather specifically.

 

I was really hoping procs could help my Traps Defender, but given how heavily I'm slotted in recharge enhancements I think it won't work out how I hoped.

 

Of course, we haven't even talked about how procs do or don't affect pseudo pets like my Acid Mortar.

 

I'm not an expert as i'm just diving in to new procing.

 

But, they are always beneficial, it is just a matter of how beneficial.

Basically under the old rules you'd slot a proc in your fastest and most used attack in the chain to maximize the number of times it would occur.

 

You can still do that, but you might be better off putting it in a different attack now from an overall dps standpoint.

For instance 3.5ppm chance for smashing in icebolt with no rech slotting has a 29% chance.

The same thing in iceblast has a 56% chance.

 

So if you use icebolt twice as often in your chain you are still better off (by a tiny bit) with it in bolt.

But if you need to slot recharge in bolt to get your chain flushed out, but don't need any in blast then blast becomes the better choice over time.

 

Basically it just adds another layer to maximizing dps chains while also balancing set bonuses.

Vs players a set like ice has a few hard hitting powers with long base recharge. Which means they are ideal for procs as well as proc diversity for more proc action.

 

(PVE) If you don't need set bonuses from a blast try a ++acc/dam hami and a +5dam IO with 4 procs (if the power can take it). Regardless of the blast that will give you a lot of extra damage over a more conventional slotting method.

 

Pets and psuedo pets are a whole different story. Some work really well, some don't. More testing is required.