The Idea Police

[Forager]

3 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Please pay special attention to the part where the mod specifically says we're allowed to disagree with suggestions.

 

I get that. That's great. That's cool. I agree. I read it. People can think ideas suck and even post that. I apologize if anything in my post gave an indication to the contrary.

4 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Of course we're not voting. No one here believes that we are

 

I said the difference is subtle, but it is not semantics. It betrays the mindset of the person. I accept it wholeheartedly in good faith. We are talking about people who say "no" to suggested badge because they don't want to get it. In the best possible faith, that person is an obstacle.

 

11 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Everything you're saying I can't do

 

That is zero things. You're confused. You can do whatever you want. Again, sorry for any confusion.

 

13 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I agree with you on this.

 

Yeah, it's pretty stupid, right?

[Forager]

Just now, Ghost said:

The main point of this topic just reeks of “only positive feedback should be allowed”.

 

It seems to be a common misinterpretation.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

 

There would be more merit in that imo. What we have right now is a miniscule subset of the population that weigh in on what they want and what they think the devs want. 

The mere fact that a suggestion basically has to conform to some sort of feasibility study is a big deterrent to actually making any sort of suggestion. Which I think people here implicitly get--the point for them is to reject things that can't be implemented easily or that they don't want (ie the dozen or so that probably regularly do this). 

 

That defeats the point of having a suggestion forum. Do the opposite. Encourage people to drop ideas. No matter how crazy or impractical. Use that as data to determine trends that are reflective of the types of things in which the larger playerbase is interested. Stop fixating on individual proposals that people find fault in and then just summarily dismiss--wasting the feedback and making people far less likely to tell you want they want.

 

The bolded is the dev's job, not ours. All we can do is say why we like a suggestion or why we don't. Everyone who posts here is allowed to do that.

[Ghost]

14 minutes ago, Forager said:

 

It seems to be a common misinterpretation.

Probably because of this part

 

 

[Forager]

I think I found the hiccup for some of you. When I said  

 

3 hours ago, Forager said:

3. Shooting down ideas is just not a thing... You can like or dislike an idea, but if you can't think of a way to improve upon an idea and don't want to try, you should not be part of the discussion.

 

That could easily be interpreted as "Only positive feedback" or "you have to give a reason."

 

That was not my intent. I'll try to be a little more clear.

 

When I say "shooting down ideas" I mean approaching a suggestion with the purpose of finding things wrong with it and making no attempt to think up solutions. You can do that. You totally can. Lots of people do this. What I'm saying is that it's dumb.

 

It discourages suggestions, ideas and discussion. It's the accountant's job.

[golstat2003]

21 minutes ago, Forager said:

 

 

I said the difference is subtle, but it is not semantics. It betrays the mindset of the person. I accept it wholeheartedly in good faith. We are talking about people who say "no" to suggested badge because they don't want to get it. In the best possible faith, that person is an obstacle.

 

 

here's the thing: that person is ALLOWED to be an obstacle if that's how you see it.

 

In reality they really are not, as the DEVS ONLY decide what suggestions they do or don't implement.

 

They can choose to ignore the ENTIRE suggestion forum if they want. That's their right.

[Forager]

5 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Probably because of this part

 

 

 

Yeah agreed. I left that a little open to interpretation. Was posting while you were.

[dukedukes]

A private or mod only suggestion option would be good to not lose out on ideas, this would address what appears to be the OP's main point of attracting more suggestions. You do need slightly thick skin and somewhere from a decent to strong understanding of the game to handle the feedback you'll get.

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, Forager said:

I think I found the hiccup for some of you. When I said  

 

 

That could easily be interpreted as "Only positive feedback" or "you have to give a reason."

 

That was not my intent. I'll try to be a little more clear.

 

When I say "shooting down ideas" I mean approaching a suggestion with the purpose of finding things wrong with it and making no attempt to think up solutions. You can do that. You totally can. Lots of people do this. What I'm saying is that it's dumb.

 

It discourages suggestions, ideas and discussion. It's the accountant's job.

 

Finding things wrong with it often has lead to others finding ways to improve a suggestion based on responding to what the person pointed out is wrong.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with that since there are other posters who can point out how to fix what the person said is wrong, with the original suggestion.

 

Often time an alternative is then suggested.

 

Keep in mind if a person thinks a suggestion will be detrimental to their playing this game, they have right to just outright say that. That's not dumb.

[Forager]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

here's the thing: that person is ALLOWED to be an obstacle if that's how you see it.

 

Yeah... gosh... I feel like we're talking in circles here. I'm saying that maybe they don't realize it, maybe they don't understand it, maybe things could improve...

 

It's a suggestion. I'm suggesting something. I'm saying that something sucks, and suggesting ways it could be better.

 

Maybe this thread has captured the problem, in a way 

 

[Forager]

5 minutes ago, dukedukes said:

You do need slightly thick skin and somewhere from a decent to strong understanding of the game to handle the feedback you'll get.

 

Currently, yes. I hope that changes.

 

A private option would not fix the problem because the problem is the lack of lively discussion.

 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Forager

[golstat2003]

7 minutes ago, dukedukes said:

A private or mod only suggestion option would be good to not lose out on ideas, this would address what appears to be the OP's main point of attracting more suggestions. You do need slightly thick skin and somewhere from a decent to strong understanding of the game to handle the feedback you'll get.

 

I think I saw a thread earlier this week where GMs said their DMs are open. Not sure if the Dev's dms are, but I assumed mod only suggestion would be a PM to a GM.

 

EDIT: Yeah this thread: 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by golstat2003
Found the link.

[tidge]

We had, not too long ago, an emphatic plea from one user asking other users to stop pointing out the drawbacks of their suggestion... and eventually a power-that-is weighed in repeating (in effect) the sum of all the already shared reasons why that suggestion wasn't going to be implemented ...and that's when things got ugly.

 

 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by tidge

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, Forager said:

When I say "shooting down ideas" I mean approaching a suggestion with the purpose of finding things wrong with it and making no attempt to think up solutions.

So, once again, your issue appears to be with the way people word their posts.

 

Also, people are not, nor should they be, required to come up with a solution. "Don't point out a problem if you don't have a solution." Is the kind of thing that lazy middle managers say during meetings when they don't want their people to shoot down their stupid ideas. "This won't work because our delivery vans cannot fly" is a perfectly rational objection to a stupid middle manager suggestion. And when he responds with "Well, what would you suggest?" My answer will be "I don't know, but then again I'm not management. It's not my job to come up with solutions, it's yours. That's why you get paid the big bucks. But I'm telling you that it's a fact that our delivery vans cannot fly, they are ground vehicles."

 

Similarly, suggestions like "everything should be free!!!!!" is a suggestion that I can disagree with, explain why it's a bad idea, and there is no solution for.

 

TL;DR: You don't get to tell people how they're allowed to word their posts.

[Psyonico]

I just came here to say

 

[Forager]

Just now, PeregrineFalcon said:

 

TL;DR: You don't get to tell people how they're allowed to word their posts.

 

Ok?

[dukedukes]

12 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I think I saw a thread earlier this week where GMs said their DMs are open. Not sure if the Dev's dms are, but I assumed mod only suggestion would be a PM to a GM.

 

Making that info generally available in a sticky would help. Even better if on the topic submission you had a toggle for "mod only" visibility, very similar to "hide topic".

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

3 hours ago, Forager said:

This subforum has earned a reputation for being a shit place to post ideas. It is suffering from an artificial, user imposed sanction on interesting or productive conversation.

 

Can we get a dev or mod opinion on any of these points? It would go a long way to fostering discussion here.

 

1. The dev's time and ability is an uninteresting and unhelpful talking point that comes up in a ridiculous number of threads. The people who cite it rarely have any idea what they're talking about and use it as a catch all way to "vote" no.  (There is no prohibition to posters stating that the devs are volunteers and have limited time.  But at least one Dev has stated that such arguments hold no weight for them.  They decide what is worth their time or not.)

 

2. We are not voting. Posters will often reply something akin to "I'm ok with it..." or "it's a no..." like they're voting. The difference between voting no and saying what you don't like about an idea is subtle, but important for discussion.   (As stated by GM Tock, just saying "no" or "I don't like it" is acceptable.  Giving reasons is better, but not required.)

 

3. Shooting down ideas is just not a thing. The only person who should be shooting down ideas is the person paying for them. Conversations with naysayers are short, unproductive and not very fun. You can like or dislike an idea, but if you can't think of a way to improve upon an idea and don't want to try, you should not be part of the discussion.  (What?  Anyone is allowed to disagree with anyone else.)

 

There's a handful of very confused posters that don't understand these things and they are ruining conversations and discouraging people from posting their ideas. I don't know that they'll necessarily understand any of this, but a tidy mod opinion on it couldn't hurt. If the ideas flow freely, you're more likely to hear a good one.  (Everyone is encouraged to post their suggestions, feedback, and ideas.  But others are free to disagree with those suggestions, feedback, and ideas)

 

All that said, there are more arguments in Suggestions and Feedback than in other subforums.  Part of that may be the posters that frequent this subforum, but it's also a function of the reason for the subforum -- someone wants the game to change in some way. 

 

Some folks don't want the game to change at all.  That's a fair position to have.  But the game IS going to change regardless.  New content will be created and changes to existing content happens.

 

My main problem is when arguments become personal and heated.  Debate the point not each other.  Be excellent to each other! 

 

I also would prefer if a few posters didn't have a back and forth argument and drown out everyone else.  You don't have to respond to every statement made.  But that's just a preference, not a rule.

[Krimson]

18 minutes ago, Forager said:

 

Yeah... gosh... I feel like we're talking in circles here. I'm saying that maybe they don't realize it, maybe they don't understand it, maybe things could improve...

 

It's a suggestion. I'm suggesting something. I'm saying that something sucks, and suggesting ways it could be better.

 

Maybe this thread has captured the problem, in a way 

 

I told you that you're wasting your time.

[golstat2003]

16 minutes ago, dukedukes said:

 

Making that info generally available in a sticky would help. Even better if on the topic submission you had a toggle for "mod only" visibility, very similar to "hide topic".

The thing is even if they did this there is no guarantee the suggestion would ever be implemented. I think that’s part of the problem many people can’t fathom.

 

The team is not large enough to implement even 1% of 1 percent of all the suggestions that come in each week.

 

But yeah sticky that ability if possible.

Edited 16 hours ago by golstat2003

[battlewraith]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

So, once again, your issue appears to be with the way people word their posts.

 

Also, people are not, nor should they be, required to come up with a solution. "Don't point out a problem if you don't have a solution." Is the kind of thing that lazy middle managers say during meetings when they don't want their people to shoot down their stupid ideas. "This won't work because our delivery vans cannot fly" is a perfectly rational objection to a stupid middle manager suggestion. And when he responds with "Well, what would you suggest?" My answer will be "I don't know, but then again I'm not management. It's not my job to come up with solutions, it's yours. That's why you get paid the big bucks. But I'm telling you that it's a fact that our delivery vans cannot fly, they are ground vehicles."

 

Similarly, suggestions like "everything should be free!!!!!" is a suggestion that I can disagree with, explain why it's a bad idea, and there is no solution for.

 

TL;DR: You don't get to tell people how they're allowed to word their posts.

 

This is why the whole setup is ridiculous. It's misses the point of why you would want feedback.

People want things. A bunch of people may want an expression of some general idea. So they make a proposal.

 

Then you have a cadre of people who take it upon themselves to find the flaws in the proposal and reject it. These same people have, as you pointed out, no interest or obligation in actually working on the suggestion. They are purely negative--for good reason. There is a conflict of interest. They want their goodies implemented, not someone else's. Not to mention the fun of crapping on other people's ideas (the comparison to a dysfunctional office environment is amusing).

 

There might be thousands of people who would be interested in some type of change, but can't get any traction because a specific proposal can't get past the imaginary office workers. 

 

 

 

 

[battlewraith]

11 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

The thing is even if they did this there is no guarantee the suggestion would ever be implemented. I think that’s part of the problem many people can’t fathom.

 

The team is not large enough to implement even 1% of 1 percent of all the suggestions that come in each week.

 

But yeah sticky that ability if possible.

 

Why even have it then? Don't let players come on to the forums and get burned when they ask for something when it's unlikely that anything discussed there will happen.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

4 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

There might be thousands of people who would be interested in some type of change, but can't get any traction because a specific proposal can't get past the imaginary office workers. 

 

Just because a suggestion is popular does not guarantee that it will be implemented.  Just because a suggestion is unpopular does not guarantee that it will not be implemented.  The various devs all have ideas of their own that they bounce off of each other, then closed beta players, then open beta and then everyone.  The devs are players too and they may have had the same or similar thought as one suggested.  Or they may have read the forums and agreed with a suggestion.  But actually implementing that suggestion may be months or years away.

 

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

Why even have it then? Don't let players come on to the forums and get burned when they ask for something when it's unlikely that anything discussed there will happen.

 

Because it's a way to brainstorm and crowd source.  Besides, sometimes it's fun to think about changes to a game we all love.

[Forager]

10 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 (What?  Anyone is allowed to disagree with anyone else.)

 

Yeah, I'm not talking about what people are "allowed" to do.

 

11 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

You don't have to respond to every statement made.

 

Whoops!

 

12 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

But at least one Dev has stated that such arguments hold no weight for them.

 

Yeah I figured. I think if that were a more widely held and known opinion, discussions would improve.

[Forager]

30 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Then you have a cadre of people who take it upon themselves to find the flaws in the proposal and reject it.

 

That is my target. That is the Idea Police. Their purpose is to say no. They start from there. It's a handful of posters who have demonstrated an easily discernible pattern.

 

And I understand good faith, but the best faith that can be offered is that they don't know that what they're doing is obstructive, destructive... and just kinda dumb.

 

That's why I started with the oft-repeated "dev ability" defense. Sometimes they lead with that when it's an obvious one (destructible environments, voice acting), but they always run there when they can't defend their objections (proc chances listed in-game).

 

I think if a person they would believe would just say "yeah that's dumb, you shouldn't do that" it would be a step toward better discussions.

 

Again: this isn't about what is allowed, it's about what is smart. 

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Forager