Super Strength vs Street Justice

[Ultimo]

So... I've commented before that I feel Super Strength kind of underperforms, and after playing some characters with Street Justice lately, I'm more convinced of it than ever.

 

The main thing is the AOE.  Street Justice has several AOE powers, Sweeping Cross, which characters get EARLY, and Spinning Strike, which characters get around L20 (depending on AT).  Super Strength gets ONE AOE power, Foot Stomp, which is the LAST power in the set.  There is Hand Clap, but it doesn't really do anything productive (knocking foes away is counterproductive to most characters who have Super Strength, as their armours rely on things like Invincibility or Rise to the Challenge).  There's also very little "flavour" of being STRONG in Super Strength.

 

I have three suggestions to improve Super Strength.

First, swap Hand Clap and Hurl.  Make Hurl an aoe at point of impact.

Second, make Knockback inflict damage, relative to the amount of knockback done.  This does mean Hand Clap would do a little damage, not from the clap itself, but from the knockback... which would maek it a bit useful, even if it does knock foes away.

Third, alter Rage so it makes all knockback UNRESISTABLE.  We see characters like Superman or Hulk, who would certainly have powers like Unyielding if present in this game, getting knocked back all the time, but usually just by characters who are ALSO super strong.  Super strength is used to move things that people without superhuman strength cannot move.  It's entirely appropriate to see super strong characters knocking Lord Recluse, or Hopkins, or any other AV back, because they're STRONG.

 

TLDR:

Swap Hand Clap and Hurl.  Make Hurl an AOE at point of impact.

Make Knockback inflict damage, relative to the amount of Knockback done.

Make Rage make Knockback UNRESISTABLE.

[Shin Magmus]

   It's like Christmas came early.  Y'know what, I don't think Super Strength underperforms at all.  It feels fine to me.

[Ultimo]

2 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

   It's like Christmas came early.  Y'know what, I don't think Super Strength underperforms at all.  It feels fine to me.

That's fair.  I mean, it's not BAD, I just think it's not as good as other sets.

[Psyonico]

9 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

I just think it's not as good as other sets.

 

Except... it is. Super Strength is #1 in the combined Pylon/Trapdoor test for brutes and is rated S tier overall.

 

 

[Ultimo]

16 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

 

Except... it is. Super Strength is #1 in the combined Pylon/Trapdoor test for brutes and is rated S tier overall.

 

 

Indeed.  The thing is, the changes I suggested wouldn't change the performance of the set all that much.  It would add a little damage due to the knockback, but beyond that, the only real changes are to swap the order of a couple of the powers (Hurl would come earlier, since it's the only power in the set where you lift something heavy), and to add a little more AOE earlier in the set, which the set could definitely use (as mentioned, the only AOE damage in the set is the LAST power in the set).

 

So, I stand by my suggestion.  Can you say why NOT tweak the set?  That is, how would my suggested changes harm anything?

[Rudra]

19 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Third, alter Rage so it makes all knockback UNRESISTABLE.  We see characters like Superman or Hulk, who would certainly have powers like Unyielding if present in this game, getting knocked back all the time, but usually just by characters who are ALSO super strong.

With the exception of Hand Clap and Hurl, all of Super Strength's KB effects are Mag 0.67. So they are KD effects. So even if Rage made the set's KB unresistible, you still aren't going to send AVs flying unless you use Hand Clap, which is not a power the likes of Superman or the Hulk use to send other characters like them flying, or Hurl. And unresistible KD is an "I Win" button.

 

Edit: Example: You could use unresistible KD to KD a Rikti Pylon and then juggle it on the ground with continued KD effects, keeping it from being able to attack anything. You could have a group of Tankers just keep knocking down Hamidon and his mitos for the entire raid, keeping them from doing anything. Or just Hand Clap/Hurl Hamidon to a safe area where the mitos can spawn at their spawn points all they like but can't hit anything.

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Rudra

[Psyonico]

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Can you say why NOT tweak the set?  That is, how would my suggested changes harm anything?

Your premise in your first post is flawed (that Street Justice out performs Super Strength).

 

Your changes (with the exception of the power level availability) would make SS even more powerful.  As I said, it's already S tier, it doesn't need a buff. And buffing an S tier power set will undoubtedly lead to a nerf of the set elsewhere down the line.

 

[Ultimo]

11 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Your premise in your first post is flawed (that Street Justice out performs Super Strength).

 

Your changes (with the exception of the power level availability) would make SS even more powerful.  As I said, it's already S tier, it doesn't need a buff. And buffing an S tier power set will undoubtedly lead to a nerf of the set elsewhere down the line.

 

I was only using Street Justice as an example.  I find that it is more effective overall, largely because of the availability of AOE earlier in the set.  It has TWO area effects before L20 (or just after, for tankers), while Super Strength has none until L30.  It isn't going to drastically change anything to swap Hand Clap and Hurl, and is better thematically.  As I mentioned, Hurl is the only power in the set where the character lifts something ostensibly heavy, and Hand Clap is better used as a higher tier power, as it's generally depicted in the comics as a higher tier ability (eg. it's kind of the Hulk's signature power... even for Statesman, it's a higher tier ability).  In the end, the goal is to add a bit of function and flavour.  Hitting multiple foes at once "feels" stronger than one at a time.

 

The addition of a little damage to knockback wouldn't be a drastic change to the performance of the set, and would affect OTHER sets as well.  I'm not suggesting a huge amount of damage here, just a bit of extra damage, relative to the amount of knockback done.  For example, suppose the power did 100 damage and knocked the enemy 10 feet.  Perhaps he'd take an additional 10 damage.  If he was knocked 5 feet, only 5 damage.  You get the idea.  Nothing game-breaking.

 

My suggested change to Rage is more for theme than anything.  In the comics, we see characters with super strength knocking enemies around, no matter how massive or resistant.  For example, I think we would agree that Darkseid is a character most heroes wouldn't budge with a punch, but Superman knocks him around often.  Likewise, if Superman was in this game, he'd have Invincibility, with it's knock protection... but he is also knocked around by Darkseid (or Captain Marvel, or a host of other super strong characters).  It would mean a tiny bit of extra damage from the knockback, but again I expect it would be trivial.

 

My goal here, as is always the case, is to better represent what we see in the source material, while also making Super Strength a little more effective in ways that aren't based on damage output (ie. area effects).  Again, I'm not seeing how it would cause any harm to anything, and the benefit would be conceptually substantial, while adding only the slight performance tweak I think the set could use.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think it's something that would be beneficial.  You're welcome to disagree, but I hope you see my point.

[Ultimo]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

With the exception of Hand Clap and Hurl, all of Super Strength's KB effects are Mag 0.67. So they are KD effects. So even if Rage made the set's KB unresistible, you still aren't going to send AVs flying unless you use Hand Clap, which is not a power the likes of Superman or the Hulk use to send other characters like them flying, or Hurl. And unresistible KD is an "I Win" button.

 

Edit: Example: You could use unresistible KD to KD a Rikti Pylon and then juggle it on the ground with continued KD effects, keeping it from being able to attack anything. You could have a group of Tankers just keep knocking down Hamidon and his mitos for the entire raid, keeping them from doing anything. Or just Hand Clap/Hurl Hamidon to a safe area where the mitos can spawn at their spawn points all they like but can't hit anything.

 

Well... I can't imagine applying knockdown to things like pylons or other objects that don't move.  It would also be possible to counter unresistable knocks by using something like Unstoppable, which increases knock resistance even further.  I also don't see it being a problem because it would work both ways, as enemies would knock the PLAYERS while Rage is running as well.  Finally, it would only be unresistable while Rage is running, which isn't all the time.  Moreover, you don't knock enemies with every punch.  I'd say maybe 20% of my Super Strength attacks knock enemies around (just a guess, really).  I'm only suggesting that characters would not be able to resist those knocks, meaning they would be knocked around 20% of the time instead of 0%.

 

In short, there WOULD be some exceptions (eg. Giant Monsters, static objects, etc.) to unresistable knocks, and there would be counters to it as well, in addition to it not being available or happening all the time.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Well... I can't imagine applying knockdown to things like pylons or other objects that don't move.  It would also be possible to counter unresistable knocks by using something like Unstoppable, which increases knock resistance even further. 

Unresistible KB means exactly that. Regardless of how much KB resistance you have, it does absolutely nothing at all against the attack with unresistible KB. You can crank up everything in the game's KB resistance/protection to infinity, and the moment an unresistible KB attack hits them, they take the KB effect's full application. The attack ignores any and all KB resistance/protection the target has.

 

Edit:

  

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Moreover, you don't knock enemies with every punch.  I'd say maybe 20% of my Super Strength attacks knock enemies around (just a guess, really).  I'm only suggesting that characters would not be able to resist those knocks, meaning they would be knocked around 20% of the time instead of 0%.

And let's look at this "20%".

Punch: 30% chance KD

Haymaker: 60% chance KD

Hand Clap: 100% chance KB

Hurl: 50% chance KB

Foot Stomp: 80% chance KD

 

Nope, not 20%.

 

  

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

I also don't see it being a problem because it would work both ways, as enemies would knock the PLAYERS while Rage is running as well. 

And you don't see a problem with that? First, how many SS enemies actually get the Rage power? Second, how would you like to play a game where that raging Marauder is bouncing everyone on the team/league constantly until you all die or his rage finally ends?

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Rudra
Edited again to add "SS".

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Ultimo said:

In the comics, we see characters with super strength knocking enemies around, no matter how massive or resistant.  For example, I think we would agree that Darkseid is a character most heroes wouldn't budge with a punch, but Superman knocks him around often.  Likewise, if Superman was in this game, he'd have Invincibility, with it's knock protection... but he is also knocked around by Darkseid (or Captain Marvel, or a host of other super strong characters).  It would mean a tiny bit of extra damage from the knockback, but again I expect it would be trivial.

Slot more KB into the powers that do KB. If you get your KB higher than the target's KB protection, then even Lord Recluse can be sent flying. That is all Superman is doing to Darkseid. Hitting him with enough KB to overcome his KB protection. Of course, he does it because it is part of the story, but we in the game have to push real hard to get that much KB. Superman isn't using unresistible KB. Neither is Darkseid. They are just strong enough in the story that they can knock each other around. Games have to be more nuanced. So if you want to do that? Grab the highest KB attack(s) you can and go nuts with the KB IO sets.

[twozerofoxtrot]

3 hours ago, Ultimo said:

The addition of a little damage to knockback wouldn't be a drastic change to the performance of the set

Because it would allow the slotting of damage procs into an AoE power that previously did not allow it, it might in fact do exactly that.

Keep in mind that the way you might be playing Super Strength is likely not the way that many others are playing it; IE by leveraging damage proc enhancements and to bypass Rage crashes and overall cause damage to skyrocket when double stacked Rage is rolling.

[Biff Pow]

The thing about Super Strength only having one AoE attack is it's a REALLY good attack. I'd trade both of Street Justice's AoEs for Footstomp.

[srmalloy]

8 hours ago, Ultimo said:

That's fair.  I mean, it's not BAD, I just think it's not as good as other sets.

Move to Lake Woebegon, then, where all the powersets are above average.

[megaericzero]

Aside from balance concerns in isolation, it would also be unfair that controllers - an archetype with considerably less raw durability and heavy reliance on CC - have to deal with the PTOD while SS tankers recreate Vanden's forum avatar:

[Ultimo]

5 hours ago, megaericzero said:

Aside from balance concerns in isolation, it would also be unfair that controllers - an archetype with considerably less raw durability and heavy reliance on CC - have to deal with the PTOD while SS tankers recreate Vanden's forum avatar:

Can I assume they're removing the consistent knock on Air Superiority then?  It's entirely possible NOW to permanently juggle an enemy.  Now, Rage would temporarily allow you to do that to an AV or EB or Boss, but it's SUPPOSED to, since a super strong character is supposed to be able to move things that otherwise can't be moved.

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

Can I assume they're removing the consistent knock on Air Superiority then?  It's entirely possible NOW to permanently juggle an enemy.  Now, Rage would temporarily allow you to do that to an AV or EB or Boss, but it's SUPPOSED to, since a super strong character is supposed to be able to move things that otherwise can't be moved.

As well as turrets, prison doors/magical barriers, GMs, Rikti dropships, Hamidon, Leviathan's eye, Leviathan's mouth, various destructible glowies, Shivan meteors in their craters, and so much more!