page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Mastermind Archetype Adjustments

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

Problem is that it isn't that much of a marked improvement even in those situations, and for incarnate content they already get extra level shifts.

 

So it's just a sidegrade at best, it's weird.

 

AFAIK the point of this round of changes is simply to make the pets be even level without overly impacting their current performance. Performance tweaks can then come later.

 

Currently the T1/T2 pets in test are actually a smidge more survivable than on Live (yes, even with the HP reduction) because by no longer being lower level they're taking less damage and being hit less often, and the same amount of allied healing will recover proportionally more of their total HP. And the difference gets bigger the higher the enemy level is.

 

Offensively it's trickier, as making the aforementioned pets even level drastically changes their damage curve. Currently the Devs have set the "break even" point at  +2 enemies so the intent is that they'll deal less damage versus even level enemies, and a smidge less damage vs +1s... in order to deal a smidge more vs +3s and more vs +4s and higher. (Personally I'd prefer they'd set the break even point lower, especially given how Proc damage is getting affected - however currently it's mainly Incarnate Interface DOTs and Assault Radial Hybrid DoubleHits that are taking the brunt of the nerfs)

 

Hit Rate is currently almost unchanged (annoyingly) with the T1s and T2s having only a very slight increase vs higher level foes... and AFAIK that's purely due to them "rounding up" to ensure all these changes are never resulting in an accuracy nerf, rather than them intentionally trying to buff it.

 

..........

 

I only started participating in Closed Beta testing recently (June) and haven't combed through all the older stuff that never made it through... but I highly suspect that the T1/T2 Pets spawning at lower levels was playing merry hell with any previous Developer attempts to rebalance MM performance, not least because any upward changes are greatly magnified in Incarnate Content. So I'm hoping that this level reshuffle, whilst not a buff in itself, at least clears the board and allows the Devs to properly buff MMs in an appropriately balanced manner later on (and not have to worry about those buffs potentially resulting in runaway performance increases in specific content/scenarios!)

 

Edited yesterday at 07:47 AM by Maelwys

[BasiliskXVIII]

8 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Offensively it's trickier, as making the aforementioned pets even level drastically changes their damage curve. Currently the Devs have set the "break even" point at  +2 enemies so the intent is that they'll deal less damage versus even level enemies, and a smidge less damage vs +1s... in order to deal a smidge more vs +3s and more vs +4s and higher. (Personally I'd prefer they'd set the break even point lower, especially given how Proc damage is getting affected - however currently it's mainly Incarnate Interface DOTs and Assault Radial Hybrid DoubleHits that are taking the brunt of the nerfs)

This is all well and good, but what about the 49 levels that aren't 50? If I'm still running a 95% SO'd out level 25 MM, I'm not doing it at +2. I don't have +MaxHP bonuses from IO slotting. This feels like robbing Peter to pay Paul, when Peter's already trying to figure out which meal to skip so he doesn't have to buy food.

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

This is all well and good, but what about the 49 levels that aren't 50? If I'm still running a 95% SO'd out level 25 MM, I'm not doing it at +2. I don't have +MaxHP bonuses from IO slotting. This feels like robbing Peter to pay Paul, when Peter's already trying to figure out which meal to skip so he doesn't have to buy food.

Agreed, which is why i said "Personally I'd prefer they'd set the break even point lower".

With the currently proposed setup (once the proc fix makes it onto the servers) the damage output of the T3 pet in theory shouldn't be getting changed at all; and the damage output of the T1 and T2 pets should "break even" at +2 mobs (raw damage) and +3 mobs (procs).
This means the T1/T2 henchmen will be dealing about 25.0%/9.7% (T1/T2) less damage versus +0s; and 16.9%/8.6% less versus +1s.
But they'll be the same as before vs +2s... and they'll be dealing 30.1%/10.0% more damage vs +3s; 92.2%/30.0% more vs +4s and 125.1%/62.4% more vs +5s.
So whilst it's small comfort to anyone that never fights more than +1s... that's a major ramp up in proportional damage (albeit perhaps not in absolute damage) at the higher end.
Factoring in Proc damage muddies the waters a bit; especially if you're packing 3 procs per henchmen and have a "DoT" Radial Interface and Assault Radial Hybrid active. But at most it should be shifting things less than one tier to the right (so MMs might end up a little worse off vs +2s but they should still be noticeably better off vs +3s).

I strongly suspect that if non-optimized MMs end up struggling then there may be an upwards tweak to damage output; at least at lower levels. However my own experience is that MMs are extremely strong soloists whilst levelling up compared to the other ATs - second only to Brutes in fact. Therefore having a minor damage decrease versus +0s/+1s until level 26 might not be a hugely impactful for anyone who isn't a /Poison. And they'll benefit once they start teaming up and/or turning up the difficulty slider.

IMO if subsequent updates increase T1/T2 henchmen survivability (which is a distinct possibility - although as a disclaimer I'm not currently aware of any specific future MM changes beyond the above bugfix!) and help alleviate the T1/T2 Accuracy slotting requirement issues then all the better... and IMO that might be a wiser way to start going about retuning them rather than Blanket buffing their damage.

(and FWIW my other wishlist items would include increasing the henchmen damage limit from 400% to 500%; and allowing ATOs to be slotted within all the MM's personal attacks; and finally tweaking the Aggressive/Defensive/Passive AI stances to give some kind of minor useful buff; at least on teams...)

[Riverdusk]

11 hours ago, nyttyn said:

 

Pets are also still so, so slow movement speed wise and this patch didn't fix that at all. 

 

 

 

Reminded me, more than once I've posted the #1 improvement wish I had for MM's was to give them a movement speed buff.  Honestly more than their damage or survivability. 

 

Solo I'm constantly having to wait around for them to catch up.  On faster moving teams by the time they catch up often times everything is already dead. 

 

It is probably the #1 thing that frustrates me about playing one.  Agreed that it is sad to see that still isn't addressed. 

[Maelwys]

2 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

On faster moving teams by the time they catch up often times everything is already dead. 

The devs are definitely aware of that particular headache.

I imagine however that simply granting the Henchmen a major speed buff isn't the bestest ever idea. Anyone who has speed boosted a "prefer melee" pet can probably imagine the bedlam that might ensue: all it takes is a single instance of monkey gas/caltrops and they'll happilly superspeed off and aggro half the map... and since each pet has its own aggro limit; that's up to 17x6=102 new enemies that suddenly know about the MM. Which reminds me: making pets within Supremacy range functionally immune to the "Afraid" condition (OH NOES A 1 DAMAGE-PER-TICK AOE! RUN AWAY!!) would be a very beneficial QOL change. Another one to add to the wishlist pile... 😇 🎅 🎁

[Riverdusk]

6 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

The devs are definitely aware of that particular headache.

I imagine however that simply granting the Henchmen a major speed buff isn't the bestest ever idea. Anyone who has speed boosted a "prefer melee" pet can probably imagine the bedlam that might ensue: all it takes is a single instance of monkey gas/caltrops and they'll happilly superspeed off and aggro half the map... and since each pet has its own aggro limit; that's up to 17x6=102 new enemies that suddenly know about the MM. Which reminds me: making pets within Supremacy range functionally immune to the "Afraid" condition (OH NOES A 1 DAMAGE-PER-TICK AOE! RUN AWAY!!) would be a very beneficial QOL change. Another one to add to the wishlist pile... 😇 🎅 🎁

 

True, but even a slight buff to movement would be welcome.  

 

Don't even mention rikti monkey gas, lol.  The absolute bane of my MM's.  At least with caltrops or fire patches they actually tend to not run that far outside the patch.  Rikti monkey gas though....they run and run and run.  I think because the effect lingers on them even after they leave the patch?  So they keep on trying to run from it even though the effect is actually 'stuck' to them.  How it seems to work anyway.

[Maelwys]

39 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

At least with caltrops or fire patches they actually tend to not run that far outside the patch.  Rikti monkey gas though....they run and run and run.  I think because the effect lingers on them even after they leave the patch?  So they keep on trying to run from it even though the effect is actually 'stuck' to them.  How it seems to work anyway.

NPC Caltrops has a Mag 50 Afraid effect with a duration of 1s. So after if you're out of the Caltrops; its debuff drops off fast.
Monkey Gas is a Mag 50 Afraid effect with a duration of 2s. So in theory the "run away" component of it is only lingering for an extra 1 sec (although it does "ignore resistance")

However due to how pet AI changes work it can take them a few extra seconds to shift from one behaviour to another (such as from "Panic Mode" back to "Normal"!) and henchmen also seem to quite enjoy continuing to run around (albeit perhaps changing direction a bit) after they've already started running.
There is a "leash" on MM henchmen that should pull them back to you beyond a certain distance; but it's a little too large for indoor maps (and IIRC the code in question is also located very deep in the Spaghetti; so it doesn't really lend itself to being tweaked!).

Personally I'll often try to work around the issue a bit by running Group Fly; but that's only really viable for Ranged or mostly-ranged pets like Bots/Mercs/Thugs.

In any case, I suspect this particular tangent is getting decidedly off topic now for a Focused Feedback thread, so I'll shush 😛
 

Edited yesterday at 11:06 AM by Maelwys

[csr]

6 hours ago, ScarySai said:

 

Problem is that it isn't that much of a marked improvement even in those situations, and for incarnate content they already get extra level shifts.

 

So it's just a sidegrade at best, it's weird.

 

I think a side-grade is what they're going for right now.  With the idea that it will put MMs in a place where they can then evaluate and buff in a patch after Page 3 release.  I also believe they are being conservative because nerfs, even small ones, are highly unpopular.  My guess is that they are trying to avoid having to nerf MMs and believe that if they just bumped T1/T2 to even level (which they did before on Beta) then a set of those unpopular nerfs would be inevitable.

 

Personally, from the limited testing I've done so far I think to get this to side-grade level I want some of those lost HP back.  Because there are places where the new level shifts are NOT changing enemy hit chances (e.g. Bodyguard mode, Incarnate content, autohit effects).

 

I also think they should consider ways to make resummoning pets in the middle of a fight more viable.  Right now when I have a pet die in a serious fight the new replacement is often dead before I can even upgrade them due to the lack of buffs/upgrades.

 

Lastly, I believe the significantly lesser value MMs get from Inspirations deserves at least a cursory look.

Edited yesterday at 01:08 PM by csr

[...]

3 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

 

Reminded me, more than once I've posted the #1 improvement wish I had for MM's was to give them a movement speed buff.  Honestly more than their damage or survivability. 

 

Solo I'm constantly having to wait around for them to catch up.  On faster moving teams by the time they catch up often times everything is already dead. 

 

It is probably the #1 thing that frustrates me about playing one.  Agreed that it is sad to see that still isn't addressed. 

 

I've often thought that MMs need a fast casting summon-all-henchies-to-me power in on a 20-30 second unenhanceable recharge. 

 

Would make keeping up with speed groups at least possible. 

[Gobbledigook]

13 minutes ago, csr said:

 

I think a side-grade is what they're going for right now.  With the idea that it will put MMs in a place where they can then evaluate and buff in a patch after Page 3 release.  I also believe they are being conservative because nerfs, even small ones, are highly unpopular.  My guess is that they are trying to avoid having to nerf MMs and believe that if they just bumped T1/T2 to even level (which they did before on Beta) then a set of those unpopular nerfs would be inevitable.

 

Personally, from the limited testing I've done so far I think to get this to side-grade level I want some of those lost HP back.  Because there are places where the new level shifts are NOT changing enemy hit chances (e.g. Bodyguard mode, Incarnate content, autohit effects).

 

I also think they should consider ways to make resummoning pets in the middle of a fight more viable.  Right now when I have a pet die in a serious fight the new replacement is often dead before I can even upgrade them due to the lack of buffs/upgrades.

 

Lastly, I believe the significantly lesser value MMs get from Inspirations deserves at least a cursory look.

 

It would help if the train/equip/enchant minion skills were auto applied on summon rather than needing to cast it on them. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

 

Reminded me, more than once I've posted the #1 improvement wish I had for MM's was to give them a movement speed buff.  Honestly more than their damage or survivability. 

 

Solo I'm constantly having to wait around for them to catch up.  On faster moving teams by the time they catch up often times everything is already dead. 

 

It is probably the #1 thing that frustrates me about playing one.  Agreed that it is sad to see that still isn't addressed. 

The Ninja and Beast minions are faster runners and feel much better for it. Perhaps all minions should run at that pace.

 

Maybe shorten the distance before minions respawn to the Mastermind when out of range could help also.

[Dispari]

My understanding from closed beta was that the MM changes are not complete and will be revisited again later. What we have right now are things they could get out before they all go on holiday break. They can however deliver the level tweak and set bonuses before then for us to play with. Hopefully that means overall damage and accuracy will be addressed at some point. Otherwise, like ScarySai said, there's really no point in adjusting their level if they're just going to perform the same.

My main feedback for the current patch is that I believe the set bonuses should be 50% or just removed entirely. 40% is an awkward number to calculate and it's an excess burden for build people to try and work with. I also have a hard time believing that 40% is fine but 50% would be too good. I broke this down into the max possible bonuses you could even get out of any given set bonus, and the difference for any of them was less than 4% at most. For example, even if you went ham on S/L RES bonuses, the most you could reasonably expect to get right now would be 36% for yourself, which equates to 14.4% for your pets right now, and 18% if it was half instead. Which is only a difference of 3.6%. The most damage bonuses will ever go up is 3%. DEF is not even 3%. And so on. This is on top of the fact that pets don't benefit from recharge anyway, which is ideally what most MMs do and should build for, because improving uptime on literally any buff or debuff is going to be 100x more effective than trying to get 3% damage through a set bonus for your pets.

If all that is said and done, the set bonuses are just "too good," then I feel like they could just be removed. I like the idea and the tech, and would rather keep them. But if they're actually problematic somehow, I would rather we just focus on raising the baseline for SO level MMs instead, since that benefits everyone.

[OverkillEngine]

4 hours ago, Maelwys said:

There is a "leash" on MM henchmen that should pull them back to you beyond a certain distance; but it's a little too large for indoor maps (and IIRC the code in question is also located very deep in the Spaghetti; so it doesn't really lend itself to being tweaked!).

Yeah the pet teleport to master leash being shorter, *if* it could be tweaked, would help mitigate multiple issues in one swoop. Pet pathing in general *and* keeping up with fast teams. And god help you if you have a "slow" secondary like Traps, you are basically naked at that point.

Edit: if the player could influence the leash range on the fly via the stance commands that would be even better, like have passive enforce the shortest leash, defensive the second shortest, and aggressive the longest.

Edited 22 hours ago by OverkillEngine

[tidge]

20 hours ago, Videra said:

We now live in a world where Masterminds have been, broadly speaking, 'adjusted' in such an over-complicated manner that something as simple as removing the -level debuff pets have? Has somehow transformed into a nerf.

 

I can easily see Giant Monster(*1) fights taking a LOT longer for MMs (on test) because of reduced damage from the T3 and T2 henchmen. Thanks to @Bionic_Flea for going up against a pylon.

 

Presumably, the lower HP of the henchmen will also make them less survivable against Giant Monsters (with the "new improved levels" of the henchmen)

 

(*1) per here

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Dispari said:

This is on top of the fact that pets don't benefit from recharge anyway, which is ideally what most MMs do and should build for, because improving uptime on literally any buff or debuff is going to be 100x more effective than trying to get 3% damage through a set bonus for your pets.

To be honest this is my main complaint with the Set Bonus inheritance thing.
Since MM pets don't benefit from recharge boosts; I'd like to see any Global Recharge they inherit be repurposed into something else like +Accuracy or +Damage instead.

Sure, going up to 50% instead of 40% would be nice too, but I'd much rather have all those superfluous recharge bonuses be useful for something.

[Maelwys]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

 

I can easily see Giant Monster(*1) fights taking a LOT longer for MMs (on test) because of reduced damage from the T3 and T2 henchmen. Thanks to @Bionic_Flea for going up against a pylon.

 

Presumably, the lower HP of the henchmen will also make them less survivable against Giant Monsters (with the "new improved levels" of the henchmen)

 

(*1) per here

I can see them taking a little longer. But it'll hopefully not be HUGELY different after the T3 proc damage fix is in place.
Honestly the difference in my T3's damage on Beta right now is bigger than the difference in the damage of all my T1s combined... and in theory it shouldn't be budging.

Definitely worth testing again once the dust settles though!

[Dispari]

6 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

To be honest this is my main complaint with the Set Bonus inheritance thing.
Since MM pets don't benefit from recharge boosts; I'd like to see any Global Recharge they inherit be repurposed into something else like +Accuracy or +Damage instead.

Sure, going up to 50% instead of 40% would be nice too, but I'd much rather have all those superfluous recharge bonuses be useful for something.

 

It's not a bad idea, though I'm unsure of what I'd suggest as far as what it should do. Damage could be nice, but I wouldn't want to widen the gap between SO and IO MMs too much. Compared to other bonuses, +recharge can actually get quite high. Up to 150% in some cases, which would be a bleed over of up to 60% of (something) if it did anything else else for pets. Whatever that something ended up being could be a major balance shift. Still, something to think about.

 

Overall though, I think the main reason the set bonus perk feels underwhelming is the numbers are just very low, and the main thing people build for doesn't impact the pets anyway. In the end it's still more advantageous to just build your MM for recharge to use your powers more often, and let your pets get some incidental overflow benefits. I see no reason to significantly change any of my MM builds, and the pets simply get small amounts of RES, DEF, ACC, and DMG as a bonus, all of which amount to very small benefits. The most any of my four MMs got for their pets in any one area is 10% S/L RES for one that built heavily for it. Most were closer to 2%-5%. That just isn't very much. Which is the main reason I feel boosting it to 50% should be fine; it's really just not doing much anyway.

[gameboy1234]

9 hours ago, CaffieneNirvana said:

Making them weaker against even-level, or slightly-higher, enemies will undercut early game performance.

 

This is my biggest concern.  The idea behind having pets be lower level than you was to always give you one pet tier that was even level, and without the power reductions we have now.  Leveling Bots on Live was a slog until level 26 or so, and the past buffs to MMs were much needed.  Now it feels like we might be taking a step back for new players.

 

I haven't tested, and finding the time to do so is difficult.  But as others pointed out MMs are not close to "the meta" so it seems like the reduced to-hit and damage shouldn't be needed.

 

[tidge]

I'll try copying a level 50 GM hunter to Beta and see what I can estimate about performance. 

 

The reliably available ones will probably be Adamastor and Scrapyard, but if I find other ones in the wild I certainly have enough experience that I can report back. There is always a little variability in GM defeat times, but I could definitely tell the differences in the (multiple) HP/Resist boosts as well as the GM ToHit Buff.

 

(*1) For me (specifically) there is a sequence of "random numbers" I encounter with a handful of GMs (those that have multiple, consecutive AoE) that break up my typical, smooth GM defeat... because of a streakbreaker and/or "high rolls" on the part of the GM that smack the MM+henchmen and/or apply status effects... it's weird, but especially since the GM ToHit buff I can noticeably tell against specific GMs (for me, Jack in Irons, Paladin... very rarely Adamastor) that things are going pear-shaped (with my typical approach to them).

[tidge]

Quick (on Beta) test (solo) against:

 

 Arachnos Flier (Grandville): Slightly longer time... almost but not quite to PITA level (because of flier's unhittable status + travel time). No noticeable changes in henchmen surviving, I did lose some T1... while rare on Live, it is not unknown. For the flier, there would be a significant change if the Flier had two travel cycles... my typical experience with the flier is that it gets only one travel period, unless I am really late to getting to it. I can generally get it down to 75%-95% of its health in one cycle, with the variability mostly coming from my henches in Bodyguard mode and what they are targeting. 

 

Adamastor (Echo: Dark Astoria) No noticeable change, either in defeat time or survivabilty.

[Maelwys]

36 minutes ago, tidge said:

I'll try copying a level 50 GM hunter to Beta and see what I can estimate about performance. 

FWIW the next minor patch should hopefully be fixing the T3's proc damage issue; and Faultline mentioned they were going to try to push it to Brainstorm later on today... so it might be worth doing another test after that lands (especially if you're running DoT-heavy Interfaces and/or Assault Radial Hybrid).

I'm planning on trying to do some comparative Pylon Times and AE runs once I can free up a few hours of solid playtime; which will likely be the weekend at this rate!

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Maelwys

[tidge]

7 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

FWIW the next minor patch should hopefully be fixing the T3's proc damage issue; 

 

Can you describe the issue? I don't include any %proc in my T3, just a each of the MM ATO Aura pieces.

 

IIRC @Maelwys and I take a different approach to slotting T3s (in general, we may have closer agreement on specific primaries).

 

FWIW: Slotting (only) T7s with MM ATO seems like one the most "who asked for THAT?" changes. May as well allow such powers to also include Recharge Intensive Pet/Pet damage sets too. [I don't intend to be too critical, but unless I'm going to do something weird like Detonating Maintenance Drones (with their terrible pathing AI), I really don't see why I'd put MM ATO in such a power.

[Maelwys]

38 minutes ago, tidge said:

Can you describe the issue? I don't include any %proc in my T3, just a each of the MM ATO Aura pieces.

Yeah... essentially damage from Incarnate Interface DoTs and Assault Radial Hybrid "Doublehit" procs is only about 35% of what it should be.

TEST:


LIVE:


Note that the basic hit damage is roughly the same, as is the damage from regular IO Set damage procs kicking in (the Explosive Strike)... however the DoubleHit and Reactive Interface damage figures are both being greatly reduced. Powerhouse confirmed it was indeed broken here.

(the screenshots are taken from my first reply in this very thread, which also covered the issue!)
 

  

38 minutes ago, tidge said:

FWIW: Slotting (only) T7s with MM ATO seems like one the most "who asked for THAT?" changes.
...
I really don't see why I'd put MM ATO in such a power.

IMO the only real benefit is to use 'em as somewhere to mule the Aura IOs. The 6 slots for each regular henchmen are often well "overbooked".
 

Edited 20 hours ago by Maelwys

[tidge]

I'd describe my level of care about Incarnates to be pretty close to zero, so I'm sure I skipped over that.

[VPrime]

Is the intention to "nerf" or "buff" the MM AT?

[Maelwys]

Just now, tidge said:

I'd describe my level of care about Incarnates to be pretty close to zero, so I'm sure I skipped over that.

Fair enough.

IIRC you tend to not slot damage procs into Single Target abilities... but since Reactive (or Degenerative) Radial Flawless Interface plus Assault Radial Embodiment Hybrid typically add a very decent chunk of damage versus a single target for the duration of the Hybrid buff window; I figured a "GM Hunter" build might be making use of them... My bad! 😉

I'll try and put something halfway sensible together as an illustration after I do my own tests; as IIRC Incarnate proc damage being buffed too much by making the T1s/T2s even-level was one of the big concerns on the Dev's radar + I'm sure they'd appreciate some more data points on it. (Even if the percentage of MMs using Assault Hybrid over Support Hybrid is very likely tiny; especially given that it only kicks in on pets [like Henchmen and Phantom Army etc etc] if you summon them AFTER activating it...)