page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Mastermind Archetype Adjustments

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, Dispari said:

The best you can get out of +DMG is +12% currently. Even if it was half it'd be +15%. Hell even if it was the full amount that's only 30%. That sounds like a lot, but pet damage is really low, and you'd always be better off just having more uptime on Sleet, Fortitude, Overgrowth, World of Pain, Forge, or what have you.

Not to mention damage bonuses work off the base power. So when you're already enhancing the power itself for ease sake say 100%, that means every damage bonus is really only half of it's value in increased performance. So a 20% damage bonus, ends up in only 10% more in actual clear speed. One reason why damage bonuses especially (and resist values notable too) are way too low, for a purple i'd expect more around a 10% damage bonus versus 4% etc. I have never once in any build gone "oo a damage bonus" they've always just kinda been there.

[Shin Magmus]

19 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Not to mention damage bonuses work off the base power. So when you're already enhancing the power itself for ease sake say 100%, that means every damage bonus is really only half of it's value in increased performance. So a 20% damage bonus, ends up in only 10% more in actual clear speed. One reason why damage bonuses especially (and resist values notable too) are way too low, for a purple i'd expect more around a 10% damage bonus versus 4% etc. I have never once in any build gone "oo a damage bonus" they've always just kinda been there.

     It's even worse than that.  The 12% dmg bonus is added on top of enhancements in the power AND Supremacy's dmg buff AND Assault's dmg buff: any serious MM will have Leadership so you have to count all of this.  If you're using Musculature Alpha as most (but not all) MMs are, your frankenslotted proc-slotted pets will probably be somewhere between 90% and 130% dmg.  Let's use the high end for this math...

 

130% (enhancements) + 25% (Supremacy) + 11.25% (Assault) = 166.25%

Your set bonus damage (if you chased it) is +12%.  So 166.25% + 12% = 178.25%

178.25 / 166.25 = 1.072

So all that effort boosts your pet damage by an effective whopping 7.2% maximum, even less depending on how much comes from procs and how much your secondary set contributes.

 

   That's the thing about Shin Math: I lay out all the cards and try to account for (and explain) the full environment.  I'm not saying anyone else here leaves details out, I'm just saying that I don't.  Damage bonus is a pretty awful set bonus on players for the reasons above, but it's especially terrible on MMs (as of the current beta patch).  Also remember that teammates providing you with extra damage buffs will completely erase your efforts (especially Kinetics).  One Corruptor or Controller running Assault is +15%, which is more than all of your sets.

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Shin Magmus

[WindDemon21]

Just now, Shin Magmus said:

     It's even worse than that.  The 12% dmg bonus is added on top of enhancements in the power AND Supremacy's dmg buff AND Assault's dmg buff: any serious MM will have Leadership so you have to count all of this.  If you're using Musculature Alpha as most (but not all) MMs are, your frankenslotted proc-slotted pets will probably be somewhere between 90% and 130% dmg.  Let's use the high end for this math...

 

130% (enhancements) + 25% (Supremacy) + 11.25% (Assault) = 166.25%

Your set bonus damage (if you chased it) is +12%.  So 166.25% + 12% = 178.25%

178.25 / 166.25 = 1.072

So all that effort boosts your pet damage by a, effective whopping 7.2%

 

   That's the thing about Shin Math: I lay out all the cards and try to account for (and explain) the full environment.  I'm not saying anyone else here leaves details out, I'm just saying that I don't.  Damage bonus is a pretty awful set bonus on players for the reasons above, but it's especially terrible on MMs (as of the current beta patch).  Also remember that teammates providing you with extra damage buffs will completely erase your efforts (especially Kinetics).  One Corruptor or Controller running Assault is +15%, which is more than all of your sets.

 

Oh i know, i was starting at just the bare minimum. It's worse the more damage buffs you stack on top of each other.

[kelika2]

You know how over time knockback-less protection sets got knockback protection?  and no fire or dark armors complained about homogenization or whatever trendy word they learned from youtube?

Can we skip the whole 40% thing and no singleenhancementwonders (kismet and the like) and just strait up give all mastermind pets knockback protection?

Mag1 from upgrade1.  at low levels there is not gigantic levels of knockback to really worry about, but when there is your 1-3 pets just go flying.  With mag1 they SHOULD survive/tolerate stuff like earthquake or a clockwork bash

Mag2 from upgrade2, totals to mag3.  this will stop most of the knockback in the game with some exceptions like council rockets or random robot blasts and AV/EB knocks

[Maelwys]

30 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Can we skip the whole 40% thing and no singleenhancementwonders (kismet and the like) and just strait up give all mastermind pets knockback protection?

Mag1 from upgrade1.  at low levels there is not gigantic levels of knockback to really worry about, but when there is your 1-3 pets just go flying.  With mag1 they SHOULD survive/tolerate stuff like earthquake or a clockwork bash

I mean, they get that NOW if you have at least one set of 3x Gladiators Armor; and since they're PVP IOs the set bonus functions when exemplared even if they're not attuned.
And many MMs can slot Resistance Set IOs into their T1 upgrade; so they're available from very low level.

Even a single instance of this grants the pets "Mag 1.2" KB protection; which is enough to stop most Knockdown powers dead until you're fighting higher than +3s.




Same goes for 3x Fury of the Gladiator (meh).
((I'd really like to see Blessing of the Zephyr, Steadfast Protection and Karma -KB IOs be made to function with them SOON^TM...))
 

Edited 13 hours ago by Maelwys

[Catalyze]

I bumped the 2 MM's up to level 27 today on Live and Beta. I ran the Who Will Die Part 2 arc in Talos on +1 X 2. This is what I found.

 

1.  The Beta pets had health of 347 T1 vs 317 Live (with 2 levels difference).  T2 pets were 463 Beta and 443 Live (with 1 level difference). And the T3 pets

were both 579 (both even level).  Hit was  68% / 85% T1,  77% / 85% T2,  and 85% / 85% T3. Resists were 2% higher on Beta with 1 +3 SO in pet training.

 

2. Live seemed a touch better in the arc but I couldn't point out any difference in reality. Both ended the final +2 Elite Boss with 1 pet dead (different pet each 

time).  A better player could probably have run it on +1 X 3 without a problem. 

 

3.  I really could not tell any difference between Live and Beta as far as performance in this arc. I felt like Live was a touch tougher.... but that is possibly because

I dislike this MM change. Final Verdict: Beta demons sucked at level 16 yesterday.... really badly. Is it changed now? No clue, I am not going to rerun the arc with 

a new toon. I may copy my level 50 over to Beta and run the MJ arc to see how the Glorious Level 50 with Full Incarnates does in this patch designed around them.

 

4. Totally changing The Subject: Developers.... Please for the Love of All that is Good in the World ...... put in a Travel Base for us!!! Just make something simple and have

an NPC standing next to each purple portal that says : The code for this base is  BETA -  1234.  Have it roll over every patch change.  Long Range Transporter and Mission 

Transporter coupled with the Oro portal is sort of annoying. Every time some player is nice enough to make a Beta base and publish the code, it lasts until the next patch.

[Captain Powerhouse]

I added a Quote to the footer of the Original Post about the changes. Please go back to the original post for some added context and information.

 

 

[ryuplaneswalker]

Some minor feedback.

 

1. I agree with the "It should be 50% of a set bonus transferred" just to make the math easier.

 

2. The ATO's should be able to be slotted into the attacks, but going into the special abilities is a good starting point, but something also needs to be done with the rest of the Auras.

 

3. With all the changes to personal Mastermind Attacks I am worried that the Patron Pool attacks will basically be vestigial parts of the toolkit, If possible I think it would be beneficial for attacks that don't have other utility (like Nightfall) to be given the various Primary Mechanics.

[WindDemon21]

5 hours ago, Maelwys said:

((I'd really like to see Blessing of the Zephyr, Steadfast Protection and Karma -KB IOs be made to function with them SOON^TM...))

This is partly why those are SO key to transfer over too, especially cause most people can't afford or don't know about those (not saying they're THAT expensive but for newer players they surely are).

[Caadium]

I have a question that I do not know how to test.

 

With the move of +To Hit Enh type from the pets to the buff powers how would Guassian's proc work? While there may be others, off the top of my head I can think of Thugs and Beasts; and they both have different situations.

 

• Thugs: Enforcers have Tactics, so on Live as I understand it the BU Proc checks on the 10-second interval like it does for player toons. (I could be wrong though). With the Beta changes, would the BU proc still work as described above, or would it only check when the Buff is applied?
• Beasts: Wolves have Howl, and I had not considered the BU proc for them before, but I would imagine on live it would check every time they used Howl (again, I could be wrong). With the Beta changes, would the BU proc still work as described above, or would it only check when the Buff is applied?

 

Again, I'm not sure how I would test for this. However, if the Beta changes are changing the way things work on Live I figured it was worth bringing up.

[Auroxis]

24 minutes ago, Caadium said:

I have a question that I do not know how to test.

 

With the move of +To Hit Enh type from the pets to the buff powers how would Guassian's proc work? While there may be others, off the top of my head I can think of Thugs and Beasts; and they both have different situations.

 

• Thugs: Enforcers have Tactics, so on Live as I understand it the BU Proc checks on the 10-second interval like it does for player toons. (I could be wrong though). With the Beta changes, would the BU proc still work as described above, or would it only check when the Buff is applied?
• Beasts: Wolves have Howl, and I had not considered the BU proc for them before, but I would imagine on live it would check every time they used Howl (again, I could be wrong). With the Beta changes, would the BU proc still work as described above, or would it only check when the Buff is applied?

 

Again, I'm not sure how I would test for this. However, if the Beta changes are changing the way things work on Live I figured it was worth bringing up.

 

The gauss proc should work as it does on live, except you'd need to change where it is slotted into the Equip Thugs power.

 

[Shin Magmus]

3 hours ago, Auroxis said:

 

The gauss proc should work as it does on live, except you'd need to change where it is slotted into the Equip Thugs power.

 

     This basically needs to be a PSA to the playerbase so they know which IOs need to be swapped around.  This is a buff of course, since it allows more direct dmg enhancement or procs into Enforcers by freeing up a slot in them, but people who are unaware will get blindsided by the next update and find some of their slotted IOs stop working.