Proposed change to the Poison support set

[Varkarrus]

There's a small bit of thematic dissonance with this set, which I feel detracts from the fantasy of being a poisoner. Namely, the fact that literally none of the powers deal damage. I understand that it's a support powerset, and that its already powerful enough as it is, but when I think poison, I think DoT.

 

Here's my take: every debuff in this set should deal very minor DoT. Considering how long the debuffs last, the damage per tick would have to be very low, or else they'd deal significant damage over the duration. Though even if this damage is insignificant, just having those damage ticks would help with the fantasy.

 

But then, as a bit of build customization fun, these debuffs could each have a stipulation that increases the strength of damage enhancements, perhaps making it possible to reach +200% damage on each one. If the base damage is low enough, tripling it wouldn't necessarily make it large. You could throw a ranged damage enhancement set on an ability like Weaken, and then the debuff wouldn't be strong, but it would also deal non negligible damage over its duration.

 

Adding a tiny amount of base damage wouldn't make the powerset significantly stronger. Furthermore, the damage stipulation would only give the powerset additional choices for builds, not making the powerset stronger as a whole.

[Razor Cure]

I like this idea. I just made a Poison corr, and even after the latest (this was just before sunset) changes, adding aoe to teh debuffs, they still feel very Single Target in nature. In infection type mechanic (ala disintergration/contamination) would be awesome.

[PaxArcana]

If any amount of damage was added to Poison, then the buff and debuff effects would have to be weakened to compensate.  Power balance is a zero-sum game, after all.

 

Perhaps what you really want, is a Poison-themed attack set.  Then you could, for example, be a Poison/Poison Corruptor.  :)

[Coyote]

If any amount of damage was added to Poison, then the buff and debuff effects would have to be weakened to compensate.  Power balance is a zero-sum game, after all.

 

Perhaps what you really want, is a Poison-themed attack set.  Then you could, for example, be a Poison/Poison Corruptor.  :)

 

Not necessarily. If any amount of damage was added to WEAK powers in Poison, they wouldn't need to be weakened. Examples of powers that are pretty weak for them are:

 

Weaken (other AoE -ToHit debuffs are both stronger and larger in area... the debuff on Special effects is nice but doesn't make up for mobs just hitting you more often).

Neurotoxic Breath... maybe. It's a -Slow and -Recharge power, and they're generally skipped and not very strong. I feel that both this and Shiver could use a buff, but it's not out of line with other AoE -Recharge powers, it's just that -Recharge powers are generally weak. Consider Lingering Radiation, which is taken more for its -Regen than for its -Recharge.

Paralytic Poison... compare it to single-target Holds from attack sets. It's not a much better Hold, it doesn't do a secondary effect, and it doesn't do damage. It's a candidate for the worst single-target Hold in the game.

 

In addition, Poison's ally powers (Alkaloid, Elixir of Life, and Antidote) are generally underwhelming for ally buffs, except for Antidote. So with the set being weak in buffing despite having 3 buff powers, it's not unreasonable to ask for its debuffs to be especially strong... but they're not. So, asking for some DoT effect on them is quite reasonable to me.

 

The only REAL issue with adding DoT to them is... will it be enhanceable? If so, does this open them up to taking Targeted AoE sets? And if so, does this introduce any balance issues? I don't really think so, despite allowing for a -Res IO to be slotted, but it is something to consider.

[PaxArcana]

If any amount of damage was added to Poison, then the buff and debuff effects would have to be weakened to compensate.  Power balance is a zero-sum game, after all.
 
Perhaps what you really want, is a Poison-themed attack set.  Then you could, for example, be a Poison/Poison Corruptor.  :)

 
Not necessarily.

 
Yes, necessarily.
 
Zero-sum game.
 
Powers are balanced by an intersection of:

• Recharge
  
• Animation Time
  
• END cost
  
• Buff/Debuff effects
  
• Damage
  
• Range / Area
  

 

If you improve any one of those, and the power wasn't especially underperforming?  You must in return make one or more of the other points "worse".

 

Furthermore, Powersets are balanced as a whole, by looking at the aggregate balance of all of it's powers, in total.  Improve ONE power in a set, and - unless the entire set was underperforming in total - you need to weaken one or more other powers in that set, to compensate.

 

...

 

And Poison is not underperforming.  I regularly see people saying it's one of the better support sets out there, overall.

[Trickshooter]

I don't think damage is something necessarily missing from a poison-themed set; not every poison is necessarily meant to kill. If anything, at least to me, thematically the set is missing a lot of -Regen.

[Trickshooter]

And Poison is not underperforming.  I regularly see people saying it's one of the better support sets out there, overall.

 

My experience is that people are pretty split on it. People seem to like it more when it's a secondary, but I've seen a few threads in the AT forums that bring Poison up and most of the time it just leads to people debating whether it's worth choosing over any other set.

 

Personally, I've played every support set to 50 except Nature (getting there, lvl 46) and Rad (for reasons), and while Poison is fun, it's definitely Support Hard-Mode by comparison. That aspect might appeal to some people, though.

[PaxArcana]

If people are split on whether it's okay or not .... then, honestly?  That means it's okay where it is, or at least, so very close to it that only tiny tweaks should even be considered.

 

:)

[Trickshooter]

If people are split on whether it's okay or not .... then, honestly?  That means it's okay where it is, or at least, so very close to it that only tiny tweaks should even be considered.

 

:)

 

Well, I think the split tends to be like...

 

Poison's debuff values:

 

Poison's mechanics and usability:

[Bossk_Hogg]

If any amount of damage was added to Poison, then the buff and debuff effects would have to be weakened to compensate.  Power balance is a zero-sum game, after all.

 

Perhaps what you really want, is a Poison-themed attack set.  Then you could, for example, be a Poison/Poison Corruptor.  :)

 

That's operating under the assumption Poison is actually balanced. Poison is, and always was, a low to middling set.

 

Changing how toggle debuffs (persisting after target death) work fundamentally devalued click debuffs, which paid for the privilege of not dropping after the opening salvo. What did rad/dark give up for this boost?

 

Poison's AE radius on it's powers is quite small, and it still has a number of weak/poorly implemented powers. For defenders/corrupters it has a PBAE toggle debuff that forces you into close range, yet offers no self protection/healing the way Time does.

 

Poison could use a buff, but I don't think damage is it. Increasing the radius for Envenom and Weak to 15 (Same as radiation's toggles) and let venomous gas be placed on an ally.

 

All rez powers could use a pass to make them on par with Rebirth in Nature, which allows an effect on a living ally OR a rez. I would say letting Elixer of Life provide half it's buff values to a living target would be fair, as there is a crash involved.

 

Similarly, I'd love to see all ally status resist powers (clear mind, clarity, antidote) get the same treatment that Injection from the Medicine Pool got, where it provides the buff on an ally, and a debuff on an enemy. This would be a good place to put a toxic dot and -regen in Poison.

 

Even with all those changes, Poison wouldnt eclipse titans like Time or Dark. If they arent going to nerf, they need to balance upwards. This means another pass at some of the weaker sets like Poison, Empathy, Force Fields and Pain.

[Bossk_Hogg]

If people are split on whether it's okay or not .... then, honestly?  That means it's okay where it is, or at least, so very close to it that only tiny tweaks should even be considered.

 

:)

 

No, it doesnt. It means some people will defend anything. There's energy blast apologists in the "buff sentinel energy blast" thread claiming it's superb single target and AE (?!) damage, even with hard numbers showing it's poor DPS.

 

COH has always had weak set white knights, which for whatever reason, want to keep their pet ugly ducking at the bottom of the pack. Mind Control, Force Fields, Energy Melee... you name it, there's someone thinking it's perfect as is. There were people who fought against TA's buffs back in the day saying the set was fine as is. Is TA overpowered now?

 

 

[PaxArcana]

If people are split on whether it's okay or not .... then, honestly?  That means it's okay where it is, or at least, so very close to it that only tiny tweaks should even be considered.

 

:)

 

No, it doesnt. It means some people will defend anything.

Conversely, some people will attack anything.  Some people, indeed, are not satisfied until their personal-pet-favorite powerset is THE ultimate in overpowered extreme godmode amazingness.

 

So when the argument is SPLIT between people saying "it's fine" and people saying "it's not fine", the consensus is: maintain the status quo.

 

There's energy blast apologists in the "buff sentinel energy blast" thread claiming it's superb single target and AE (?!) damage, even with hard numbers showing it's poor DPS.

From what I've seen, they're saying it's okay for DPS, and the "soft control" of knockback is good enough to overlook being "merely okay" otherwise.

 

COH has always had weak set white knights, [blah blah blah blah]

... and, your bias is revealed:

 

You want your pet set(s) to be OP as possible, and to hell with game balance.

 

...

 

/JRANGER to the whole idea.

[Coyote]

If people are split on whether it's okay or not .... then, honestly?  That means it's okay where it is, or at least, so very close to it that only tiny tweaks should even be considered.

 

:)

 

No, it doesnt. It means some people will defend anything.

Conversely, some people will attack anything.  Some people, indeed, are not satisfied until their personal-pet-favorite powerset is THE ultimate in overpowered extreme godmode amazingness.

 

COH has always had weak set white knights, [blah blah blah blah]

... and, your bias is revealed:

 

You want your pet set(s) to be OP as possible, and to hell with game balance.

 

If the set has weak numbers and plays poorly, then someone who says it can use buffing wants it to be OP?

I don't even play Poison. It's very far from my "favorite set".

But... I do play number-crunching. And the numbers, well, Dark Affinity and Rad and Storm and Time put up a good fight. Poison? No, the numbers just crunch it like it's a -2 minion.

 

Statistically, it puts out pretty weak debuffs. It does this using a lot of Endurance and, worse, using a lot of animation time.

It is not highly performing offensively, as the only thing that it does well is stack -Res on a single target. Granted, this has a use... but in a large portion of the game, it's not as useful as AoE -Res where it's good but not so great.

It is not highly performing defensively, as it is only good at mitigating incoming damage from a single target... against multiple targets, its small radius and weak AoE splash effects drop it down pretty far. And single target damage is most relevant against AVs... who resist -ToHit and -Recharge, putting it down far below other sets at protecting against AVs.

 

All in all, it's playable, especially as a secondary, but very weak on a Defender or Corruptor. Arguably the worst Buff/Debuff set for these ATs. So, we shouldn't consider improving it just because SOMEONE said it's fine? Heh, nah... show me the numbers. Then I'll sign on leaving it as is.

 

But the numbers right now say: buff Poison.

[Bossk_Hogg]

If people are split on whether it's okay or not .... then, honestly?  That means it's okay where it is, or at least, so very close to it that only tiny tweaks should even be considered.

 

:)

 

No, it doesnt. It means some people will defend anything.

Conversely, some people will attack anything.  Some people, indeed, are not satisfied until their personal-pet-favorite powerset is THE ultimate in overpowered extreme godmode amazingness.

 

So when the argument is SPLIT between people saying "it's fine" and people saying "it's not fine", the consensus is: maintain the status quo.

 

There's energy blast apologists in the "buff sentinel energy blast" thread claiming it's superb single target and AE (?!) damage, even with hard numbers showing it's poor DPS.

From what I've seen, they're saying it's okay for DPS, and the "soft control" of knockback is good enough to overlook being "merely okay" otherwise.

 

COH has always had weak set white knights, [blah blah blah blah]

... and, your bias is revealed:

 

You want your pet set(s) to be OP as possible, and to hell with game balance.

 

...

 

/JRANGER to the whole idea.

 

Oh please. Poison is not my "pet set". It's a set that isnt worth the drawbacks. Split gut opinions mean jack vs numbers. 

 

/jranger is a mindless way to shut down discourse without bothering to offer a counter argument. You didnt even bother addressing the toggle buffs or ANY of my points other than with feeling based nonsense.

[Bossk_Hogg]

If any amount of damage was added to Poison, then the buff and debuff effects would have to be weakened to compensate.  Power balance is a zero-sum game, after all.
 
Perhaps what you really want, is a Poison-themed attack set.  Then you could, for example, be a Poison/Poison Corruptor.  :)

 
Not necessarily.

 
Yes, necessarily.
 
Zero-sum game.
 
Powers are balanced by an intersection of:

• Recharge
  
• Animation Time
  
• END cost
  
• Buff/Debuff effects
  
• Damage
  
• Range / Area
  

 

If you improve any one of those, and the power wasn't especially underperforming?  You must in return make one or more of the other points "worse".

 

Furthermore, Powersets are balanced as a whole, by looking at the aggregate balance of all of it's powers, in total.  Improve ONE power in a set, and - unless the entire set was underperforming in total - you need to weaken one or more other powers in that set, to compensate.

 

...

 

No, you don't. Until they nerf the top tiers, you CAN simply buff upwards. Moreover, there have been plenty of straight up buffs, Toggle changes included. Turning trash powers people skip into reasonable picks doesnt require nerfing the rest of the set. Moreover, the original devs absurdly didnt even balance around animation time, which is how energy melee is in its current crap state and you have useless redundant powers like energy blast on sentinels.

 

 

And Poison is not underperforming.  I regularly see people saying it's one of the better support sets out there, overall.

 

Citation needed from people who have actually played a top tier set.

 

Is it the essentially 2-3 target debuffs with high end costs, the lack of meaningful -regen, the single target end costly heal, or having to be in melee range with no personal protection that makes it so good?

[Steampunkette]

1) Gather enemies on a tight corner.

2) Debuff the big stack of enemies.

3) AoE.

4) Repeat.

 

Poison is the only set I've ever used that allowed me to solo AVs as a Corruptor. Gecko Girl, level 50 Water/Poison.

 

It's not a grest solo leveling set, sure. But different powersets require different tactics. Play differently and Poison becomes really good.

[Steampunkette]

Rebuilding her build from memory and I'm fairly certain it was -always- a hackjob!

 

Defenses

M/R/A: 17.5%/29.3%/24%

Nrg/Neg: 28.7%

Fire/Cold: 22.8%

 

Resistance:

S/L 63.9%

 

Recharge: 135% (with hasten)

 

Not -terrible-, right? But also not Softcap... Until you hit them with poisons.

 

Weaken is slotted for 21% ToHitDebuff, which brings your effective defenses up to:

M: 38%

R: 50%

A: 44%

On the first stack. Yup. That's right. Throw it twice. Heck, throw it 4 times 'cause the recharge is down to 5.5 seconds and the duration is still 30 seconds. It also reduces incoming damage by 30% (per stack) so your 63% Smash/Lethal is more effective. Of course you could also throw on Power Build Up before you throw it out. Then it's 33% ToHitDebuff for up to 2 stacks, since PBU lasts 12 seconds, but it's up to you.

 

And hey, if you're fighting a bunch of Praetos and get aggro, just throw on Force of Nature for your panic button. It'll reduce incoming exotics by 40% or so (Except Psi, obviously), stacking with the 30% damage debuff 'cause that thing is powerful.

 

At high end, those two powers make the entire powerset RIDICULOUS. Combine Neurotoxic Breath to make your enemies attack less often (and you can get that one double-stacked for 130% recharge rate reduction) and you're taking another third to half of the enemy's damage away.

 

For the record: This build has Poison Trap in it just 'cause I like to lead enemies to it on a corner and then whirlpool -on- that corner to really screw 'em up!

 

As far as Alpha slotting goes: Either Musculature for more damage or Intuition for more debuffs and range. With a range of 104 you'll be able to start fights outside of enemy range, maybe hit 'em with a ToHit debuff before they can launch the alpha, then duck behind crates or a corner near your poison trap and drop whirlpool when they get near the trap to slow 'em down before you debuff them in a stack.

 

Now, of course, AVs get 85% resistance to debuffs. So you're only throwing 3-4% Defense and ToHit debuffs against them. But you're still debuffing their Damage at full strength. 30%. 60%. 90%. Each stack makes them hit less and less powerfully. Pop a purple or two at the start of the fight, an orange if you're feeling nasty, and then drop their ability to hurt people or resist the damage they take into the floor.

 

Yeah, Mako's got huge defenses and you can't debuff them which sucks, but that's what Yellows and Accuracy slotting are for. Pull on your big girl panties and deal with it, not every set is going to be great against every enemy.

 

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1506&c=680&a=1360&f=HEX&dc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

 

This post is long enough, so here's the Homecoming 2.23 Hero Designer link. And just for you? I added some chance for damage procs to Envenom and Weaken.

 

Poison is one of the strongest support sets out there if you build to it's strengths and change your tactics according to your situation. You can walk through the world essentially unkillable while turning all of your enemies into pudding. Or you can charge in like a madman, try to debuff a wide-spread group with a close-spread debuff, and eat pavement.

 

 

[Coyote]

Huh, what?

 

1: Poison's debuffs are listed to be NON-STACKING in Pines and in the City of Data site. I can't login to check power stats in-game to confirm this, but I never heard that they allowed them to self-stack.

 

2: Dark's debuffs ARE self-stacking. Twilight Grasp can be stacked about 4 times (20% To Hit debuff for Defenders, and that's unslotted, but more importantly, -40% damage). Add in Fearsome Stare, Darkest Night, and Fluffy's debuffs, and you're well over 100% ToHit debuffs, plus over 100% Damage debuffs. If you want to see a set that makes enemies into baby kittens, this is it, not Poison. Oh, and it also has a good amount of -Regen and a self-heal, to boot. For Controllers it's even better. Heck, it solos AVs at level 22 on SOs.

 

3: I don't understand the argument about featuring a relatively weak, small-radius debuff, when the gems of the set are Poison Gas Trap (Controllers would love to get an AoE Hold with this duration/recharge, not to mention the chance to use it as a mini-AoE with damage procs, as their primary AoE Hold), and Noxious/Venomous Gas (a decent radius debuff with debuff stats that aren't very high, but it debuffs 4 major categories... Defense, ToHit, Damage, Damage Resist, effectively being 2 debuff powers in one).

 

If you can solo AVs with these stats on that character, then that character would solo AVs FAR better as: Dark, Traps, Rad, and probably Kinetics and Nature. Soloing an AV with that build just says that you play well, not that the build is actually all that strong. Seriously, a Dark Miasma character built like that can probably go AFK against most non-mezzing GMs or AVs, by putting Twilight Grasp on auto and running Darkest Night. Poison can't touch that, and this is in what is supposed to be its main strength, soloing hard targets.

 

Put it in a team setting with larger spawn sizes and larger teams that are harder to heal with single-target heals, no AoE team buffs, and no self defensive buffs to help you survive aggro from putting out weak AoE debuffs... and again, Poison lags behind. Maybe it's not fair comparing it to Dark or Rad, but I really don't see any general niche where it shines. Its only trick is a strong debuff against -Special, which is nice in the very very few instances where it's relevant, and pretty useless otherwise.

[Steampunkette]

Nothing in game says they don't stack with themselves either in the descriptive text:

 

 

Or the Game Stats:

 

[Trickshooter]

The in-game numbers never show whether a power does or doesn't stack, as it's pretty much the rule at this point. Typically, only the Issue 0 legacy sets have click debuffs that stack (this is not including pseudopets in the newer sets).

 

Probably of interest to people, the -Regen of Envenom is already self-stacking. And I don't mean with the 'main debuff+splash debuff stacking trick'; the -50% Regeneration stacks with itself with every application.

 

Edit: And this is not something unique to Poison; most -Regen in the support sets is stackable.

[Razor Cure]

So many other sets have auto hit debuffs, or very close too. All the toggle ones, tar/sleet/freezing rain. Use then on anything, it hits the target. Poison, one miss and that boss will slap you silly.

Also, not sure if someone can confirm it, but I am almost sure the Poison Trap in /Poison is NOT the same as teh one in /Traps. The traps version is almost godlike, yet the Poison one is..average at best.