Dr Causality

In case someone is curious about builds. Ninja/TA for soloing TF's is one of the most difficult aggravating builds I've worked on. Not only do you get no Res, Def or Heals from TA and TA also doesn't have any powers that are good for building up +Rech needed to get your Oil Slick up often, or take advantage of Acid Arrow's proc damage. You have to make huge sacrifices to either your Res/Def or Rech. The best for doing normal +8 content or team play definitely seems to be Fire Mastery for Bonfire. The extra KD mitigation and Dmg from Bonfire, and the +Rech you can get from a FF proc out shine the extra sturdiness from a Patron shield. But Fire Mastery with no Res shield just wasn't sturdy enough for the AV fights. The only way to do it would be using trays of Inspirations pulled from email. So I settled on a Soul Mastery build that sacrificed Rech but was able to keep Provoke and get up to: 75% S/L Res 33.4% Negative Res 32.7% Ranged Def 33% E/N Def My original plan was to use the Bonfire build for mission content, then switch to the Soul Mastery Build for the AV fights. But powers all going on cooldown when you switch builds dissauaded me fromt trying that so I went for an all around Soul Mastery build. In retrospect still might be the best plan, with a more specialized anti-AV build that can stack some extra -Res.

My first big solo test backs up your point that Ninja/TA is not as bad as I expected, even solo.

Finished but with one death in the final AV fight. +2/+8 Restrictions were: No temp powers No deaths Nothing from email or from outside missions, except for starting with a single tray of small insp Probably will try again but it's slow going.... And I don't think it can be done with those restrictions at +4 (especially now that MM melee pet controls Goto no longer makes pets stay...) I finally finished grinding out the t4's needed and tackled a solo ITF that I'd tested doing on Beta server. [**Edit** Doh! I just had a friend explain to me that the new 'Stay' now works in Defensive Bodyguard mode, so you can still get behavior that let's you position even melee pets while in BG mode. That should be a massive change for the big fights. May have to try this again...with some more elaborate pets commands.] The challenge got significantly more difficult since I'd tested on Beta server. The new MM pet control change where melee pets will now run to attack from the Goto position you send them to stand at, is a nightmare in the final AV fight that ruined my previous strategy. Ninja's T1's having no resistance and TA having no resistance, defense or heals to support them with means the PBAOE's from the Nictus can practically one shot the T1 pets. So on my test runs a few months ago I found that if I left the Ninja's in Defensive mode but made them 'Goto' and stay just outside the PBAOE range then I could keep them alive, by Taunting the attacks away from them. (Sure being mostly melee that means they don't do nearly as much DPS from range, but even using just their limited ranged attacks they do far more DPS then when dead. And being alive in BodyGuard mode they are able to help my MM tank the AV's. ) As promised from the post link below I rolled what was voted on as being the worst (most underperforming) MM combo Ninja/TA to see what could be done with it. Turns out it's still possible. But now that's it's nearly impossible to keep Ninjas out of PBAOE range of Nictus it requires some luck, which I didn't have. I finished with one death in that final fight. First off I got unlucky because Romi spawned at +3, and from my trial run it seemed like I barely had the DPS and survival needed for +2. I reset the mish a total of three times he spawned at +3 every time... So I gave up tried him at +3. Next it seems to be a bit of a coin toss as to whether Romi just runs away instead of fighting. No amount of Provoke Taunts to seems help or time to stack Immoblizes once he decides to run. MM's don't chase well I died trying to stop Romi from running and pulling Imperious into a big spawn. (I probably need to clear the entire map to be safer, but I was too tired do more than clear all around the AV....) Off to the hospital, then reset again since I knew that at +3 I wouldn't have the DPS to kill him without Imperious' help. Romi spawned at +3 again. Heh. But this time I was able to kill one of the Nictus. (You basically have to focus whatever Imperious decided to fixate on....) Then at 50% health Romi took off running pulling Imperious into a big spawn. I tried but couldn't save Imperious, but at least didn't die myself this time. (Trick Arrow having no buffs makes it tough to save NPC...). But with the Nictus that does the big pet killing PBAOE dead, I decided to try to finish without Imperious. It made the fight go incredibly long, but I finally got him. I only had enough DPS to out do the healing Nictus when the Lore pets were up, and even then it took a about 4 Lore cycles. Made the entire thing taking an eye bleeding 4+ hours. So +2/+8 MoITF on Ninja/Ta is doable even after the recent MM control changes, but it will require some luck: Romi doesn't run, causing Imperious to get killed and even better if Romi spawns at +2.... I may try it again, but not this weekend....

I can see that. I think I partly take to feel like I'm contributing more on teams in AV fights where my mezzes don't help as much. With a 3,000 HP Tank that 300% Regen actually amounts to something substantial.

I'm continually amused by how differently people can play sets in this game while still being effective. For me the entire reason to pair Earth Control with Nature is the aoe Hold stacking between Volcanic Gases and Entangling Aura with a Lockdown Proc in each. With sufficient global recharge that gives you permanent area effect of Dominator level Hold Mag, but with Controller support and debuff powers. The Earth/Nature combo starts off slow unless you're teaming. But once you can pick up Stone Mastery attacks for Dmg letting you can easily solo. And that Stone pet is a mini Tank with the two +Res pet IO's and Nature's buffs. I really like this advice and wish it were given out more often. Quicksand So funny. Because it's opposite for me. I find the combination of long cast time and soft mitigation to make Quicksand skippable once you get your other powers. It's not that it's bad by any means, it's just that Earth/Nature has so many other great powers that I never had the time to use Quicksand.... For comparison on Trick Arrrow I find the Glue Arrow slow patch to be core, because TA doesn't have that many good tools in it's chest.... So I do recognize the soft mitigation utility of slow patches, I just feel like like at higher levels Earth/Nature has better option in most cases.

You lose Hotfeet dmg. But you gain the proc damage from Creepers and Seed's Confuse isn't just for getting enemies attacking each other, it can also be turned into a reliable direct dmg power with procs. This works better on Controllers due to their additional ATO dmg proc, but Dom's who keep their Seeds +Rech Enhancement under 52% can still get 2 x 71.75*.95=136 Dmg on avg. That means Seeds can reliably burst for dmg equal to about the first 10s worth of fully slotted Hotfeet damage. Even at under 52% Recharege slotting on Seeds, high global Recharge builds will still be able to keep the cooldown under 20s, so Seeds can do 50% of Hotfeet's DPS just from procs, but with the advantages of range and burst dmg. Then you've got still Carrion Creeper's Dmg and the Confuse turning a portion of what attacks enemies do get off go back on them. Hotfeet shines on Controllers who can get double base damage out of it from containment, whereas containment doesn't work for proc damage from summons like Carrion Creepers. But it's a much different case on Doms that don't get containment bonus dmg. I certainly could be wrong, but I do not expect Fire Control to out damage Plant on Doms. Definitely. The problem with Imps is they are also much more fragile and Dom's have limited tools for keeping pets alive. If Fire can keep the Imps alive, then the three of them will do more dmg than Fly Trap. But the Flytrap is sturdier, Plant has more soft control, and Tree of Life can help keep your pets HP topped off... FlyTrap takes procs to catch up on the dmg, or in case you don't have another good source for slotting Achilles. Far point. Stationary is the real problem, same as Creepers. But it's a massive 40' radius and the Regen is better than ok. Even on a low HP Dom's the Tree of Life Regen can be significant and will be helpful in AV fights. When you stack with easily Capped HP from HoarFrost, a two slotted Tree of Life should be an additional ~ 20HP/s Regen. Doesn't help much with Burst damage. But to put it in perspective at 20HP/s you're getting a Controller's 'Radiation Aura' heal every 6s. And you can easily get your total Regen up over 30HP which at capped HP means going from 0 - 100% Health roughly every 50s. Anyway, I don't want to derail your Fire/Earth thead, I was just curious if anyone had some head-to-head experience with the two since I'm playing around with Plant/Earth builds in Mid's....

Would be interesting to test. Based on what Coyote said, it won't stack from a single activation of an aoe power procing on multiple targets. So to test you'd need to make sure the power it's slotted in has well under 10.25s Recharge (after enhancement and globals). Proc Per Minute is only a name, for what turns out to be just a much more math heavy and overly complex chance to proc system. There's nothing in the formula to creates a hard limit on # of procs over a period of time. And certain factors like global recharge on high cooldown powers influence proc chances such that they can severely exceed stated PPM values. Head over to the thread Bopper started to read up on it. (But maybe don't spend too much time building around it. The collective nerf instinct is turning out to be surprisingly deep-seeded in this reboot. So now that PPM is more widely understood and being built around, it's attracted the nerfer's ire.. Meaning it's tough to tell how much longer it will work that way.) :

Impossible to tell without the context, but seems it might be you that's missing something. Here are two example scenarios: Snipe is a central part of your single target attack chain. Well then +Tohit = +Dmg, and in that scenario your -Def other the hand might = who cares, since on Dom's your accuracy is often already so high from all the bonuses you get when chasing +Rech set bonuses for getting Perma-Dom/perm-Hasten. For survivability you really need your opening Mezz to reliably hit, so can't wait to build up some stacks of -Def. Those are just the immediate two scenarios I thought of where +Tohit makes sense despite having -Def. There are likely more that haven't occurred to either of us.

I've been searching the forums with no luck. Before I resort to testing on the Beta server, does anyone know if the 'Ascendency of the Dominator: +chance for +Dmg' proc is able to stack? Building on that: If used in an aoe power can it stack multiple times, from procing on multiple enemies? In a single target power, if used prior to expiring from a previous proc will it? (a) stack the damage? (b) Refresh the 10s duration? Or (c) does it have a cooldown, lockout period between procs?

I would be interested.

I have a sense that Plant/Earth will have roughly similar damage from a proc-ed out Carrion Creepers, but more control from Seeds, with 'Tree of Life' being enough Regen to be a near heal. So overall would be safer, with similar damage and maybe faster clear times from the Confuse. But this is just theory from time played on both Plant and Fire Control, a lot which was back on live. But I've never tried Earth Assault... Has anyone played both Fire/Earth and Plant/Earth kitted out at 50 to compare?

Yeah. might be good. The big aoe debuff of his hurricane did a pretty consistent job of aggroing whole spawns he got near.

Necroing this post. But hopefully it's useful to someone interested in the Support side of the Tsoo. There's big potential game play issues with the Radial Superior (Support side). Basically the Sorcerer randomly TP's away into nearby spawns causing accidental aggro and disrupting missions. I was testing out the Tsoo Radial Superior (Support side) because of theme. The Sorcerer seemed pretty good on paper. But in missions I found him to be nightmare on my MM. Just like the enemy Sorcerers he TP's away somewhere random, though walls, balconies etc.. But unlike the enemy sorcerers that means he Aggro's spawns within TP range. Now if you don't mind accidental aggro, then he might be useful for automated "herding", since he can't be attacked anything he aggros will come to fight you or your other pets. So Tsoo were terrible on the MM I was testing. Shame because the Ancestral Guardian was pretty good and the Sorcerer was good when he actually stayed in our fight debuffing and healing, instead TPing away to other spawns.... *Edit* Really wish there was a way to toggle his TP off. [But I guess it might break his ai....]

Best is for you to try them both out on the Beta server. With all the leadership Toggles VEATs get, almost any pets end up being fairly powerful. Also the number of pets you can get gives you plenty of room to slot the four Pet IO's for a total +10Def and +20Res for all your pets. Importantly those Buffs goes to Lore pets too. And you can use the Buildup Proc from the Purple pet set for your pet that does the most Damage. Makes it possible create MM like VEAT builds. As far as the Patron Pets go for VEATs my personal favorite is the Leviathan pets. It's very sturdy with your buffs, and does respectable damage. The Mu Striker is all ranged. Ranged pets tend to take less damage. I believe it also has a heal. The Blood Widow if I recall has some +Def, so might be possible softcap her. Blood Widow has more attacks and should do more damage. But most attacks are melee so she'll often be in range to take melee and Pbaoe damage. Probably a wash for survivability. But definitely worth testing yourself since it's relatively easy on the Beta server.

/Traps Doesn't get a heal which hurts Tankermind builds. Bots don't have Resistance to Negative Dmg that Nictus do. At +8 sized mobs streak breaker is going to come into play often even if you've softcapped def and at +4 levels Nictus bosses can probably one-shot or definitely two-shot at least the T1 Bots. Protector Bots will be vulnerable too because they can't bubble themselves, so have less Def than the other Bots. I'd say you're at minimum going to need the 3 +Res pet IO's. Together those add a massive (10+10+15) for a total 35% Res which will help significantly. You'll probably also want the three +Def Pet IO's, especially for the Protector Bots and to help against AOE attacks. For the Nictus map, I recommend setting up Bots and traps around a corner. Then pulling and running around the corner to pull them into a choke point at the corner. This will help protect you from getting sniped at range and should cluster Nictus and Dwarfs for Assault Bots Burn patch and your traps. Will be slow going but should be safe enough with careful use of Insps to take the Alphas. But +4/+8 Solo ITF on MM is going to be very tough and slow. MM's in general and particular Tankermind playstyles that heavily use Defensive Bodyguard mode struggle with large spawns. The reason it's worse for Tankerminds, is that in Defensive Bodyguard mode you can't focus fire, so henchmen will spread their dmg out instead of eliminating targets...meaning you take a lot more damage. I've only done solo ITFs on MM's at +2/+8. At +4/+8 I think the real issue you'll run into is going to be the last AV fight against the Nictus/Romulus. (Unless you do something cheesy like Split the Nictus before they spawn.... or try to take out Nictus as range since they don't aggro...) But without cheesing that last fight, it's very hard for a MM. The Nictus can easily wipe out pets, and it can even be difficult to deal with the Ambushes if they start getting healed by the Nictus...you're fighting the AVs. Try to babysit Imperious all the way to the AV fight. He'll spawn at the same +4, and with buffs from your Trap Shield and Triage Beacon he can probably hold his own taking some pressure of you and doing very respectable dmg. Position Bots out of the PBAoe zone (especially the more fragile T1 and Protector Bots.) And consider trying to pull Romi away from the spawn point, to make the ambushes less problematic. Curious to hear how you do? +4/+8 Solo ITF on MM is definitely an accomplishment. I think I'd want Demons/Time or Thugs/Time if I was going to try it. Although /Dark that @BGSacho likes could also be very good on the ITF. Not only is a strong set, but specifically for the ITF the +Res to Negative from Shadow Fall, and the massive heal would be useful.

I think a lot will depend on whether you plan to primarily team or solo. KIN's heal Transfusion is an enemy target based heal, making it difficult to keep ranged pets healed. You often have to manually have them run up next to your target, so they can get into the heal radius... I used to prefer Bots/Kin, because one of Protector Bot shields your MM for up to around 10% Def (if you slot it for Def enhancement). That makes it much easier to get Def numbers up, even on /Kin. But now with the pet ai upgrades Bots are properly all ranged. This can be nice on teams since you can have them sit out of the way, while still attacking targets. BUT especially for Solo play, now that Bots ai is fixed to prevent them from running into melee, as described above it's challenging to use your heal. Due to Transfusion's enemy target based heal, especially for Solo play, you'll likely be happiest with melee based Pets/Henchmen. Given that best sets would probably be one of these three, especially for solo play: Demons with all their -Res debuffs, and their Ember Demon's +Res Shield are great. They have melee claw attacks, so will eventually run into melee. All that -Res they can stack would be the biggest force multiplier for KIN Fulcrum shifts, and especially noticeable on teams and against AVs/GMs. Thugs are great due to Enforcer's stacking Leadership powers. Which means it should be possible to softcap them with all the +Def pets IOs, MM taking Maneuvers and Hybrid Support. But they're mixed ranged and melee, with only the (3) Bruiser (T3) being melee. Beasts are all melee and recommended by @Force Redux But I have very limited experience with them, so can't personally comment on what it takes to soft cap them etc. From my understanding getting the most of out Beasts requires using the MM attacks to build stacks of 'Pack Mentality'. To me that sounds like it would be busy and maybe distracting on top of all the /Kin powers. But the difference between busy and boring, seems to be very much a personal playstyle preference.... Zombies are all melee and should also be workable. Not Recommended (unless you need them for theme) Ninjas while melee are quite fragile, so not recommended, especially paired with a 2ndary like /KIN that doesn't have +Def or significant +Res buffs to help keep them alive... Mercs are not recommended for pairing with KIN because they're all ranged, but lack the Bots Def buffs and -Regen etc. For Team play, especially on /Kin I really like the Fire Master Epic pool, so you can get Bonfire. You give up the Resistance Shield, but Bonfire is a ton of mitigation with Overwhelming KB to KD proc. And you still get the single target Hold you proc into a Dmg power and Fire Ball. So gives you some nice offensive powers. I think the highest DPS KIN MM build will likely be Demons/Kin/Fire.

Yeah. I can see that being great too. Proc-ed out Carrion Creepers are such good DPS and mitigation they might as well be henchmen attacking with AI.

My feelings too and that's why I'm on the same page with @Force Redux in suggesting a MM as making one of the best team oriented KINs. It might just be because I've extensively played MM's, but I feel like you can largely let the henchen's AI do the attacking so you contribute DPS, freeing you up to focus more on using your KIN powers...

The poll is biased. I tried to cover positions that aren't mine but the two question poll limit, and other format limitation doesn't really give room to create well rounded poll options covering all views, randomizing order to avoid bias etc.. But you should have been able to account for your "I would Welcome and enjoy [nerfs]" stance by choosing: Question #1: Option (a) -- That you prefer to "Nerf overperforming powers, sets and combinations" in combination with Question 2: Option (c) -- "I would have more fun knowing those sets no longer had out of balance unfair advantages" That would show you prefer nerfs and that you would enjoy them.

Feelings matter. We play this game because it feels good ( or least distracts us from things that feel worse...). But that doesn't mean we can't be rational too. And to that point since feelings matter, ignoring them is actually very irrational. If I'm following this, then you're not even necessarily for nerfs you just want powers and sets to be diverse, so cookie cutter play is less possible? But I can promise you one thing, no matter what changes are made or not made to the game people are going to continue to try to find and copy the "winning pattern" and request shared builds from other players they think have found the "winnning pattern." Again it seems to me that you want players themselves to be different and I don't see how any of these game balance issues we're discussing will impact that.

This is a strawman. I haven't seen a single person arguing to buff sets up to broken-tier peformance levels and it would clearly be foolish to do that. Buffing underperforming sets up to median is what is being suggested. Personally, I'm okay with rebalancing nerfs, as long as undertuned sets are buffed first or at the same time. It's starting with nerfs that I'm firmly against. Holy Christ! Now you've done it. The other nerf threads don't have have a hint of the flames we'll see if this goes into a Nerf Fire/Fire Blaster territory. Please delete and take that back right now. 😅

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not hardline arguing for no nerfing or rebalancing of overperforming sets. I just saying, let's address underperforming first (or at minimum at the same time.)

Okay, walk me through how Nerfing over performing sets and Nerfing before before buffing underperforming sets fixes any of those problems or complaints? Are players suddenly, going to want to face challenges? Are people magically going to stay around, or not want to switch to their more powerful toon after team wipes? Or not suggest inviting more people to deal with the challenge that caused the team wipe? I understand your frustrating with the game becoming so easy. But nerfing in no way addresses the issue of players not being willing or interested in putting up with hardships. If we make the game harder again, some people who don't want to put up with hardship will quit or play less. Others will go back having to strict requirements to join their ITF team. You want players themselves to be different, and the nerf bat only works on in game characters.

A quick glance at the threads that prompted me to start this, shows that ship has clearly sailed. And to counter that idea entirely, I'd say it would be much easier to make the case for nerfs, once all sets are pretty much at a median, except a few overperforming outliers. Right now, it's more like "The game doesn't have balance, so why come for my X." Whereas, it could be "Okay, the game is mostly balanced, except for my X." Which is much more likely to get a, "Dang, oh well" kind of response. Instead of "Why pick on meh...."

But this is exactly the question and you're not offering a justification for your preference of starting on balancing the over-performing outliers first, rather underperforming outliers. The re-balancing process you describe should work just as well starting in reverse from the underperforming end of the outliers and bringing them closer into the median, then seeing how outpaced the overperforming sets are. But the end you start balancing first does have significant impacts on player enthusiasm and enjoyment. So why start with Nerfs?