Dr Causality

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. Thugs are very balanced, and a powerful, near perfect synergy with /Storm. But the bar being discussed has been set significantly higher than those fairly uncontentious points. See below:

It's no comparison, the Thugs personal attacks don't help. You can't stack procs from Achilles, so the most you ever get will be -20%. And the cooldown on the Thugs personal attacks means their proc chances for Achilles are not reliable: With Zero Recharge Enhancement Achilles proc chances are: Pistols w/ it's 3s cooldown just: 24.5% Dual Wield w/ 8s is 42% And Empty Clips your AOE proc opportunity: is 30.7% You should probably skip the single target Thug attacks and take something like Weaken Resolve since it has capped 90% proc chance and it's own -12.98% Res. But Demons can take that too.... Demon powers, like Sonic, stack their -Res, unlike procs can be slotted for Recharge to maximize the -Res stacking. You can easily maintain 2x Corruption and 1x Crack Whip for a total of -28% Res Hellfire Demonling has Corruption that does -15% Res for 5s on 4s cooldown Hellfire Gargoyle has the same Corruption -15% Res You regularly should hit peaks of -58% Res, but will more often maintain -43%. These are raw that will be decrease by AV/Gm resistance but still are very sizable. And again you too can take powers that give you the Achilles proc, plus you get the bonus of benefitting from the BP Lore Pet -Cold Res. All together this let's you stack Sonic attack level -Res. Why would you ignore game powers when theory crafting? Ignoring data is only good for politicians and product marketing. 🙂

In case someone needs a Costume Concept for Plant/Martial you're welcome to steal my Mandrake Root costume idea. I got distracted with other builds and experiments, so doesn't seem like I'll finish him. Working name I had was: Mandrake Sensei Idea was a martial artist that is imbued with or shapeshifts into a Mandrake Root hybrid..... Here's a GIF of the costume: https://imgur.com/Rw95410

My personal take is that you definitely want to take it for the slot mule slotting opportunity. But unless you have a very high recharge build so it's up often, then it's totally fine not slotting it for much Dmg or Accuracy if using those slots elsewhere makes your overall build significantly better. You get the same Dmg buff regardless of slotting, so the only way Dmg/Acc help is from the dmg the steam of little imps can do with their attacks. They help clear trash mobs faster, but against really tough targets I find it hard to keep them alive on some 2ndaries and builds. Their value probably depends mostly on your 2ndary. A 2ndary like /Time will have trouble keeping them alive because they will rarely emerge when they can get instantly buffed by your /Farsight +Def. But with a 2ndary like /Traps or /FF they'd be automatically buffed.... /Dark might similarly do well with them, since they'd automatically get your /ShadowFall, Manuevers, and the -Tohot and -Dmg debuffs...

Interesting. Does that mean it can be used on Lore pets? If so, that's clearly the best use since that Lore pet can do so much more Dmg...

Would be a nice quality of life change overall. But seems it would also be significant nerf against really tough AV/GM fights, where the hassle to re-summon would definitely worth it. So a nerf that also made it work all the time, would improve regular content game play at the expensive of significantly decreasing the feats MM's could pull off solo.

Hey@Frosticusand @Maxzero I'm not finding any updated details. What were the final DPS numbers or kill times from the /Storm MM builds you two were working on?

This is quite a bit overstated, and in that extreme form very likely not true. Think about what you're claiming here. You're claiming that regardless of 2ndary choice Thugs will do more DPS than any other pet set. Thugs have very limited ability for -Res and getting that one optimal Achilles proc slotting in Enforcers costs you a very valuable IO slot in Enforcers that could be another Dmg Proc, Gaussian's or Def IO for their Leadership. Just between the attacks Demons give your mastermind and the Demons own attacks, that set can stack a massive amount of -Res making up a huge amount of the DPS gap from it's inferior Dmg proc options. Even if Thugs slot the Achilles, it doesn't stack with itself, so maxes at -20% Res. Something to keep in mind here is that -Res is a force multiplier for dmg from your teammates and other non-Mastermind pets. Importantly top Lore Pets do a lot of DPS, so the -Res stacking from Demons + BP Lore Pets will likely out do Thugs + BP Lore pets by a considerable amount. Note that the -Res in this case works in double advantage for Demons, because BP also do -45% Cold/Neg Res and unlike Thugs, Demons do a good portion of their damage in Cold. For 2ndaries that have their own strong sources of -Res this maybe won't be as noticeable, but on something like EA that has no -Res of it's, it will be a significant DPS setback for Thugs. Lore pets are only up half time, so tough to say how that averages out overall. But when you factor in Dmg from Teammates it's very very clear the -Res will win out over any raw proc DPS advantage Thugs may have. A few reasons we haven't seen tons of absolutely insane Pylon numbers for Demons is they suffer from "I've fallen and can't getup syndrome" that the Pylon routinely triggers with it's KD, also I believe most tests were not using Lore pets which as mentioned due to doubled -Res stacking should greatly benefit Demons. But @Frosticus mentioned an early Demon/Storm build of his doing over 900 DPS in @Maxzero's Pylon DPS thread: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/7349-after-700-dps-troller-time-for-my-next-project/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-204435 What makes Thugs so strong, is their stacked Maneuvers Leadership makes it possible to easily softcap them AND that they do massive dmg, have great slotting options from 4th pet power Gangwar, have great Dmg proc and Gaussian slot options, +Tohit, etc. Another thing worth noting is that Thugs DPS feels comparatively so much better in game play due to how sturdy they are often built, with their high Defense protecting from a lot of mezzes and debuffs, early deaths etc... Thugs/Storm is particularly potent solo because Steamy Mist adds just enough +Def along with Maneuvers, Pet uniques and Enforcer Def slotting to take Thugs to Soft Cap. To do it's best work /Storm needs pets that are mostly self-sufficient and Thugs deliver.

Doh you're correct. No Lethal Resistance at all.

It warrants more thorough testing. BUT what I can tell you is when I briefly tested a build on beta months ago, it was so completely underwhelming that it drained the will to thoroughly test completely out of me. Beta had been down for a while, so when I finally got to test.......I excitedly ran two missions, cried a little inside, logged out and never looked at that character again. Back story: Many many months ago this was my sneaky plan to make a sturdy Ninja MM. My idea being that Ninja's frailty wouldn't be an issue against Mobs that were stunned and couldn't fight back. (Ninjas seemed like an optimal choice because the Fistful of Arrows attack you'd always skip on min/max builds is a 8s cooldown, fast 1.32s animation aoe cone attack. So I thought would be perfect for stacking the Mezzes.) More thorough actual testing could still reveal something interesting though. One possibility as to why my build performed so abysmally is that 70% proc chances might be impacted by MRT and AreaMod from the PPM formulas, meaning the low cooldowns and Recharge Enhancements I used may have dropped my proc chances. If so, other powers and slotting might achieve better results. But even then when you break it down Control Radial is just not as impressive as it first seems on paper. It's much much more difficult to stack than you'd think. Immob and Fear Mezz Durations are Mag2 and last for 10s. Only works on powers that do damage. Considerations & Questions to test: Do pets and summons apply the Radial procs? Depending on how stacking works, this could make a massive difference to pets builds since they'd be able to stack lots of procs.... Do additional Radial procs stack mag of it's mezzes or do they simply refresh the duration? Seems like from the description that it should stack 5 times. This makes a very big difference since it would determine how possible it was to ever stun Lts and Bosses. Assuming it does stack, does it continue applying and stacking Immob, even when it's applying it's next mezz effect like Fear? And likewise to enemies already Immob and Feared, do procs stack more Mag in addition to the Mag5 Stun. I suspect procs only apply a single of the Mezzes at a time, but needs to be tested. This makes a massive difference, since if Radial procs only applies one of their 3 mezzes, then immobilize / Fear will wear off, meaning you won't be able to chain stun. (Unless you have outside sources of Immob and Fear...) Is the Radial 70% proc chance impacted by PPM calculations like MRT and AreaMod? Does Radial Control trigger at the beginning or end of the attack power? This is surprisingly important to stacking for two reasons: You only have 10s of duration to stack, so if it triggers at the begging then your attack animation of your first attack will count against your 10s Immob duration. With many aoe powers have 2 or 3s or longer animations this would effectively mean you'd only have 7 to 8s of Immob left for stacking. If Radial triggers at the end, then depending how it checks for existing mezzes determines it's effect might stack ontop of mezzes from the attack power itself. Mean for instance that an attack power with it's own Immob would let radial stack a Mag2 Fear on the very first attack! I suspect it does not work this way. But it would be best to know... Optimal use of Radial Control would be a chain of AOE attacks that let you maintain perma control on entire mobs. Best even best or better case scenarios for stacking that would still be challenging. For instance assuming ideal stacking, with aoe powers at have 2.x second animation time. Adjusting for 95% Tohit: Attack #1: is 66.5% enemies Mag2 Immob. #2 is 44% Lts/Bosses Mag 4 Immob and 44% Minions Mag2 Feared. But duration of the immob stack is probably at best 7s remaining due to animation time. Attack #3 is just 29.5% Lts/bosses Mag2 Feared and 41.8% minions Mag5 Stunned. The immobilize stack duration is down another 2-3s, so probably between 4 or 5s remaining. Attack #4 will stack Mag4 Fear on only 19.6% of Lts/Bosses and the Immob duration is likely down to around 2s remaining. **Assuming your Immob hasn't worn off yet, then Attack #5 will Stun 18.6% of the Lts/Bosses. (It will also stun a portion of the minions that weren't already stunned.) **Assuming 2s animations times your initial Mag2 immobilize will wear off at the end of this attack. **But assuming 3s animations and/or less than perfect gapless chaining of attacks, the Immob from attack#1 will have already worn off prior to Attack #5, meaning you may not get the stun at all.... If you start thinking through these questions, you can see there are many ways that Radial Control procs could be implemented that would make it mostly ineffectual in actual game impact. But still seems worth testing since there might be some very interesting angles to exploit, err I mean leverage. But application will be building around sets that have their own ways to Immob and Fear, making it easier to get Stun procs... If it works on pets Crabs might be optimal since they have options for max # of pets, plus access to damaging powers that do Fear and Immob.... I could probably be convinced to help with testing.

Your answer is technically correct.....but there are some "interesting" Role-play options. I recall someone back on live using the dismiss command for some creepy human sacrifice ritual that he seemed waaay to invested in.... Maybe was just trolling, but dude did not get invited to any local out of game meetups after that. 🙂

Agreed this is a good point, as I see /Kin builds skip Increase Density. Even if you don't want to fully slot it makes an excellent one slot wonder for Steadfast (and/or slot mule for Gladiator's Armor and Unbreakable Guard). With just a Steadfast, even with MM lower buff numbers it still it becomes 21% S/L Smash/Energy Resistance. That can make a big difference on pets.... (Probably not the best Alpha choices on a /Kin MM) but if Cardiac or Resilient stacked with full slotting then you can push it up to an impressive 34% S/L Smash/Energy Resistance. Duration is short, so can be tough to remember to keep on pets (and teammates.) But at least changes along the way mean the Resistance portion is an aoe, so you only have to cast once every 60s to keep it on pets (and teammates.) So don't skip Increase Density (even if you're unwilling to be bothered with casting it individually on pets / teammates).

Raw damage not counting procs would be better. BUT: Far fewer good proc opportunities for Ninjas, meaning Thugs not only catch up but surpass DPS. Ninjas are much much less survivable. Unlike Ninjas, the Enforcer's 2x Leadership makes it possible for Thugs/Storm to still soft cap Def. To salt the wounds Thugs also have higher resistance. (All Ninjas except T3 Oni have 0 Resistance. Where T2 Enforcers have 26% Lethal and T3 Bruiser gets the same 26% S/L as Oni, so just misses Oni's Fire Resistance.) Ninjas don't have a 4th pet power for helping to slot all the pet uniques meaning it will be much more difficult to chase great set bonuses while still well slotting pets. Ninja don't have a good additional pet dmg power. Thugs get Gangwar. Ninjas fragility means in real game scenarios with /Storm you'll rarely get anywhere near the full their full DPS. The lower Def means they also get knocked down and mezzess more often. Basically, Thugs totally outclass Ninjas. (And I'm bitter about it because aesthetically I love Ninjas... I mean it seems weird conceptually Ninjas should have worse Defense than Thugs...)

Two comments on /Kin MM's: Lack of significant buffs to +Def or +Res for pets, combined with pets not benefiting from Speedboost +Rech I think it means that /Kin doesn't make a great, and for solo play, certainly not a top MM. But it's still an interesting support team combo because of the inverse: MM makes a good /Kin support, since the pets contribute Dmg to the team, without requiring much direction. /Kin can be a pretty busy set, so this let's you focus on /Kin support and buffs. Additionally, BG mode means your MM can be much tankier than other /Kin AT's. So still worth playing as long as you mostly team.

I found it much easier to use 8-way, once I removed the joystick tip. But the other reason the 8-way works out okay here is all three forwards I'm mapping use the +Forward key, it's just that slightly left of forward also does Target_Next and Right of pure Forward also does Target_Near. That makes it forgiving enough for me to use, since they have the center pure forward as a seperator. But yeah I could see it being an issue if they were all discrete powers... Hope to be wrong, but from trying the Macro's out in Synapse 3, it does complex key sequences, but doesn't let you register two keys simultaneous presses. But I found you could hack it by deleting the the release portion, so that both keys were actually pressed at the same time. The remaining problem still was the Macro's don't allow for "Holding" the macro keypresses while you hold down the key the macro is assigned to, so Macros are not really usable for things like Jump or Fly where you need to hold them for a varying duration. The Macro made Jump + Forward as work very erratically. The Synapse Macros feel very limited without allowing multiple key presses and holding the macro buttons while the mapped key is pressed. Tough to understand why there's still this limitation in Synapse, since the software can properly do this with Modifier keys, it seems clear that it's an intentional limitation. I' Yeah I saw that bugginess too. I also tried for targeting like you did, but without being able to set the wheel's scroll the rate of scrolling it was useful for Target_Next because it too hard to control skipping past the target I wanted...

Maybe we should start a seperate Tartarus / Orbweaver thread to collect our tips and tricks? The Razer Synapse software really sucks (can't bind two keys why!?) But I came up with two tricks for direction pad that might be interesting to you: Trick #1: It wouldn't be fine tuned enough movement control for PVP and even for PVE probably still want to remap an +Up jump button somewhere like you're doing at 11. But if you change the direction pad to 8 directions instead of the default 4, add an alternate mapping to 'Right Control' for +Up, then Razer software will let you add Right Control as a Modifier of your the key you mapped to +Forward movement which you can set for the diagonal forward thumbpad. This means by moving your thumb to the diagonal forward you can simultaneously jump and move forward with just your thumb! You can steer with your mouse, so works pretty well. But the limitation is you still have no way to hold down your jump button.... So you stop jumping when you stop moving forward, and also lose all other fine grained movement while jumping or even jumping vertically are is possible. Trick #2: But that made me think of what's probably a better use of the diagonal forward modifier combos. Because the Razer software sucks and won't allow mapping multiple keys, your stuck using what Synapse allows as modifier keys. In game I set 'R Ctrl' to be 'Target Enemy_Next' and 'R Alt' to be 'Target Enemy_Near'. Then in Synapse I set them respectively as modifiers of the +Forward key on the two forward diagonals. That lets me target with my Thumb, while moving... Target Near despite being used more only needs to be flicked once, so I set it to the less natural +Forward Diagonal R position. Target Next needed more precise control to cycle through enemies, so I set it to the more natural Forward Diagonal Left thumb direction. With Targeting and Movement out of the way that should free up most of the Keys for power execution. Have you found anything useful for the Scroll Wheel?

Exactly this. I was doing some testing of Electric Affinity builds and procs on Beta server this weekend trying to work out what tricks could be done with the set. There's wasn't anything really impressive that EA could do solo, but I realized that a beastly "Feedback Loop" super duo could be made from a custom built Kin and EA duo mainly for the reason you outline they cover each over weakness, because they both can buff +Rech in a Feedback loop, they'll be easily able to cap Dmg and get massive +Rech, plus will have tons of mezz control, etc. I'll make a write up about my Super Duo concept when I have some more time.

Since you use the rocker for movement, I'm wonder what you use for jump? Your thumb is already controlling the rocker, so seems like you couldn't use the stock jump thumb button? (And it sounds like you remapped it for Follow...)

Looking at this photo brings back memories! I used one of these back on live so I could dualbox, to try out some character duo with custom builds that I had trouble getting a teammate to try with me. I had a very complex setup with keystroke broadcasting to a 2nd computer. It let me play almost entirely from key presses / MMO side buttons for all power activations. I mapped keys to tray positions so all characters could use the same setup just by dragging powers or macros to the mapped tray positions. That way I could switch between alts and easily remember the setup just be seeing the onscreen tray layout. Sadly, I'd seen the Fangs are no longer being made, so I picked up a Tartarus. Looking at this photo I'm also realizing how much more and more compact the keys on the Fang are compared to the Tartarus V2. I'm counting 31 keys in main area compared to 19 for the Tartarus. This explains why I've had so much trouble coming up with a functional system like I had back then. In comparison all the Tartarus adds is (1) a scroll wheel which I find awkwardly placed and I haven't been able to find a good use for. (2) a direction pad that I use as 4 keys and 5th button above the direction pad. It's just not enough keys for the crazy amount of powers we have now from Incarnate, Pools etc. Even with 7 mouse side buttons, I'm still clicking on at least half my powers. There's no way I could efficiently dual box like I used with my current setup. Anyway, Thanks for the trip down memory lane. I'd totally forgotten what that Fang looked like. 🙂

Hoping someone else comes along to answer, but from memory the Immob and Fear are mag2. Once something is already Immob and Feared, then it gets a Mag5 Stun. What I never tested was whether any of this can stack with itself? In another words is it ever possible to stack 2 or more Immob, 2 or more fears etc. If not then, you need to add Immob or Fear from another source to ever be able make use of the Stun (for bosses and Lts...). What I can tell you, is it was entirely unimpressive in the short tests did on Beta. I imagined I would stunning critters left and right, but just didn't work that way. I would definitely do your own testing on Beta before using Incarnate salvage.

But does that say more about /Poison or /TA? 🙂 I'm certainly not saying Poison is good on a MM, I'd definitely put it near the bottom of 2ndaries for MM's. But compared to Trick Arrow: Poison actually does have at least some buffs to help your pets/teammates and it has more powerful debuffs, especially for dealing with tough targets. I'm fairly confident that a ___/Poison MM can do everything a ___/TA could do, plus probably take out a few AVs or GMs the TA couldn't handle solo.

For my Beta server runs if you add up the separate missions, then I did it in around 2.5 hours. I went a lot slower on the Live run because I wanted to avoid a stupid death ruining my Mo run. Even at that methodical pace I was starting the final mission at 2 hours 14 mins. The final #%&^$# mission doubled my time. And the AV fight attempt that finally actually finished Romi was itself over an hour. I still think an under 3 hours time is possible, but you have to keep Imperious alive.... The other cruel thing is the most difficult fight is the last one, and when it takes so long to get there it's tough to still be playing efficiently at that point. I suspect you'll say that under 3 hours is still not optimal, but I recall full team ITF attempts back on live taking that long, so it feels okay to me for a solo run on a character that's not optimal for dealing with either large mobs or AV's. Haha. Rather than pure gamer grit I think it was more of a sort of gambler's fallacy (or more precisely "chasing losses" to win them back). Had I known it would take me 4+ hours at the start, I probably wouldn't have started. But once I was already 2 hours, then 3 hours in, I kept thinking I thinking "just a little bit more" to finish, so my "loss" of time up to that point wouldn't be for nothing.

For leveling before you have good Rech and fully Slotted Storm powers, I alternated between Gale and Wall of Force slotted with FF procs to boost Recharge. Along with Sleet that gives you ton of mitigation and if you run +8, enough targets to get a consistent +Rech from the two FF. Wall of Force does nearly no damage on it's own, but also does pretty well with Dmg procs. You can respec them over to storm powers later. Then to help with your Endurance issues you can alternate between Unleash Potential and Victory Rush. With Attuned IO's that made for pretty easy leveling running like +1/+8. Take O2 Boost. You won't have enough slots for your powers anyway, and O2 Boost is a great spot for the Preventive Medicine +chance for Absorb proc and if you add a heal you get 2.25% S/L Res. The Absorb means your pets take less damage from Bodyguard mode. Pickup weaken Resolve for an early source of -Res and early Achilles slot. Mighty Leap holds your KB prot IO and unlocks Unleash Potential for you. Endurance is a struggle. If you have the infamy plan to put all the Recovery procs Panacea, Miracle, Numina's, Peformance Shifter. Also get the temp P2W recovery power. Open with Gale. Gale should be slotted for KB to KD, FF proc, Accuracy and range so you can fire it from far back making it easy get entire mobs. It does very little damage so don't bother slotting. Also don't slot for Dmg procs. The FF proc is only get because you just need it to hit once out of an entire spawn. Dmg procs you need to hit most of the spawn... At early Lvls follow up with Sleet Then Wall of Force. Wall of Force doesn't do reliable KB mitigation, but it's a good at hitting the FF proc and okay for Dmg procs. Gale should just about be ready again. If not fill in with a Weaken Resolve on Boss, O2 Boost on a pet, or Aoe temp attack power etc. Hurricane can situationally be handy. But you skip Snow Storm you just don't have the Recovery to run it.... This was the skeleton leveling build I used, expensive but you sell it all when 50 so not a waste as it made leveling a breeze: http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1316&c=655&a=1310&f=HEX&dc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

I have a Ninja/Storm that's fully Incarnated. From my tests on Beta server Demons are much much better. Ninja/Storm is playable but it's not that strong compared to other sets. Dead Ninjas don't do DPSTM ...you spend a lot of time resumming. (Not as much as Ninja/TA but still bad.) The -Res from Demons means they do more damage. It's a force multiplier that makes your storm powers do more damage, your Lore pets, your teammates etc. But on top of that Demons are much much sturdier than Ninjas. Demon's have the best Res, and they have an AOE heal. The Res shield and heal heal also buff your MM. On top of that Demons have a 4th pet power giving you more room to slot all the pet uniques and still chase set bonuses. Take Ninjas for theme or challenge. But if you're min-maxing, Demons outperform them by miles.

Agreed I don't recommend it. MM's are already tough to Solo the ITF with since they don't handle big mobs well. But to answer the question of how often I resummoned pets, let me just say that I renamed my character to "Ninfinity". I had to give up and play as though at least the T1 pets are completely expendable. So my characters backstory is now that he got his name by challenging Paragon PPD to a dual with his Ninjas. The chief made a public joke about bringing "Ninjas to a gunfight" but the joke ended up being on PPD, because you can bring Ninja's to a gun fight, if you have infinite replaceable Ninjas. 😋