nzer
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Posts posted by nzer
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7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:
yes increasing recovery bonuses would be game breaking, because endurance game is already an easy button.
By all means, explain how. Explain in more detail than "it breaks the game," because that's all you've said so far. What builds would suddenly become broken if recovery set bonuses were twice as powerful as they are now?
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20 hours ago, Bartacus said:
Someone specifically said something about FF doing as well as time and that's, frankly, complete bullshit.
You should go back and reread, because that's not what was said.
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10 minutes ago, Infinitum said:
or accept the fact that smaller recovery bonuses make more sense and do in fact add up and then coalesce with the other features in place for end management to make it ridiculously easy as is.
Recovery set bonuses are an almost negligibly small part of that picture, and thinking buffing them to the level suggested would somehow render the entire endurance system meaningless requires complete ignorance of exactly how small the numbers in question are. You think an extra ~0.2 end/sec on builds that don't specifically slot for it is somehow game breaking?
I don't really know how else to say it, except to point out that the panacea proc, itself not a large portion of a full build's recovery, is worth more than five instances of the largest recovery set bonus. For comparison, five instances of the largest recharge set bonus is nearly equivalent to a 50+5 recharge IO in every single power.
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1 minute ago, Infinitum said:
I'm noticing a trend in this thread of posting cute pictures in lieu of substantive arguments. Curious that it's only happening on one side of the discussion.
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Just now, Infinitum said:
Then, again you are missing the point completely.
No, you're mistakenly conflating distinct points.
Recovery set bonuses are undertuned, and because of that they are never a consideration in the build process. That's something that could reasonably be considered a problem. If increasing recovery set bonuses such that they're not undertuned causes an overabundance of endurance generation, that's something that could also reasonably be considered a problem. The fact that solving the first problem causes another doesn't mean the first problem isn't a problem, it means there are two distinct problems, one of which is hiding the other.
In a properly balanced system we would neither have undertuned recovery set bonuses nor an overabundance of endurance generation. Are you trying to argue that scenario is fundamentally impossible? Because you'd be wrong.
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6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:
you cant talk about recovery bonuses and their effects without mentioning other methods of gaining endurance
Hold my beer, I'm going in:
Recovery set bonuses are currently undertuned relative to similar set bonuses, and because of that are never a consideration in the build process.
Nope, looks like I can talk about recovery bonuses and their effects without mentioning other methods of gaining endurance.
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15 hours ago, Redlynne said:
I'd say that going from a net negative of -0.07/s throughput to a net positive of +2.02/s throughput in the holistic context of an entire build plan WOULD (what did you call it?) "offset even a single cheap toggle" ... and I'm not even including the effect of procs for +Endurance here (which pushes things even further positive with Panacea and Performance Shifter procs).
Did I say end management is hard? Why on earth are you talking about Panacea and Performance Shifter when the discussion is about recovery set bonuses? You do realize that of the 2.02 net end/sec this build generates only 0.15 of it comes from recovery set bonuses, right?
I'm not even taking a side, I don't care about recovery set bonuses. I came to this thread to reword an obtuse analogy, and then to ask for clarification on the numbers you posted because they seemed to agree with @Vanden's assessment that recovery set bonuses are undertuned rather than refute it, and now you're ranting at me about how much end your build generates as if I've taken a side in some holy war.
4 hours ago, Redlynne said:Is completely ignoring what people say fun for you? Combat Jumping isn't a good example of a cheap toggle in the context of this discussion, as at 0.07 end/sec it is almost always the cheapest toggle in a build by a significant margin. Hover, which is also usually the cheapest toggle in a build, costs nearly three times as much, and at 0.19 end/sec it is, in fact, not fully paid for by the 0.15 end/sec your MM build gets from recovery set bonuses.
Tell me, is Hover not considered a cheap toggle?
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28 minutes ago, FourSpeed said:
Yep. That's about what I make on it, in total, these days.
I'm confused, why would the total ever be different? Killing things slower doesn't mean you're killing fewer things, you should be getting exactly the same inf from a 10 minute clear as a 4 minute clear.
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@Redlynne, maybe I'm misreading something, but those numbers seem almost comically small to me. 5.85% max end and 0.15 end/sec doesn't offset even a single cheap toggle.
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25 minutes ago, Vanden said:
Let me try to put into perspective how weak the bonuses are right now. The Ultimate +Recovery bonus, the largest one, is a 4% increase to Recovery rates. That works out to an extra 4 endurance generated every minute. A typical t2 blast attack like Power Blast costs 8.53 endurance to use. If you slot a single endurance recovery SO into that power, bringing it down to 6.4 endurance cost, and use that power only twice per minute, you've already improved your endurance economy more than the best single +Recovery set bonus.
I think a better way to say this is that after two minutes the largest recovery set bonus won't even have paid for a single use of a T2 blast, which with a proper build can be cast something like 15 times a minute.
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2915 +4x8 should be ~50 mil per run IIRC. Not sure why you're coming away with less than that.
Also just FYI, the other level shifts only apply in incarnate content, they won't work in AE. The +1 from alpha is all you get.
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This is my thugs/storm build. Not exactly what you're looking for, but hopefully a good starting point; you should really only have to modify the pet slotting.
Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.1
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designerClick this DataLink to open the build!
Static Shot: Level 50 Natural Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Thugs
Secondary Power Set: Storm Summoning
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Heat MasteryHero Profile:
Level 1: Call Thugs -- SprMarofS-Acc/EndRdx(A), SprMarofS-EndRdx/+Resist/+Regen(3), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg(5), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Gale -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A)
Level 2: O2 Boost -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(7), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(9), Prv-Heal/Rchg(9), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(11), Prv-Absorb%(11)
Level 4: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(15)
Level 6: Equip Thugs -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(15)
Level 10: Steamy Mist -- RedFrt-Def(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(17), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(17), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(19), RedFrt-EndRdx(19), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 12: Call Enforcer -- SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprMarofS-Dmg(21), Empty(23), Empty(23), Empty(25), TchofLadG-%Dam(25)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 16: Freezing Rain -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27), Ann-ResDeb%(29)
Level 18: Gang War -- ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(A), SvrRgh-PetResDam(29), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(31), EdcoftheM-PetDef(31)
Level 20: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(31)
Level 24: Weave -- RedFrt-Def(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(33), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(33), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(33), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(34), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 26: Call Bruiser -- SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMarofS-Dmg/EndRdx(34), SlbAll-Dmg/EndRdx(36), SlbAll-Build%(36), ExpStr-Dam%(36), SlbAll-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37)
Level 28: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(37), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(37), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(39), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(39), GssSynFr--Build%(39)
Level 32: Upgrade Equipment -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Tornado -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A), SlbAll-Dmg/Rchg(40), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), AchHee-ResDeb%(42), FrcFdb-Rechg%(42)
Level 38: Lightning Storm -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Apc-Acc/Rchg(43), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(43), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(45)
Level 41: Fire Blast -- EntChs-Acc/Dmg(A), EntChs-Dmg/EndRdx(45), EntChs-Dmg/Rchg(45), EntChs-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), EntChs-Heal%(46)
Level 44: Fire Ball -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Rgn-Dmg(46), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(48), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(48), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(50)
Level 47: Bonfire -- OvrFrc-Dam/KB(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(50), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(13)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(13)
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon
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2 hours ago, barrier said:
This is a huge nerf to MM's in PVP and I am 95% certain that the original devs noted that BU proc'ing on both players and pets was the intended effect. It was on the boards at around the time purple sets were released.
Not proccing a 5 second BU when summoning one of your pets is a huge nerf to MMs in PvP?
If it was the intended effect, why didn't the enhancement text reflect that?
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14 hours ago, Kommon said:
Hopefully they can make it so melee pets can still run around after using GoTo, like before then change, but still be leashed to a certain distance from the mastermind while at the same time gluing range pets in place
That's exactly what they're doing, a dev announced it in the thread TheSpiritFox linked and it's now up on the beta server.
11 hours ago, Rumahu said:follow command rather than goto itself.
Follow forces henchmen to not attack for 10 seconds, so yes, the follow is the problem.
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12 minutes ago, Solarverse said:
For whatever reason, it's not letting me slot with more than one. How were you able to get more than one slotted?
I don't think they mean more than one copy of the proc, just other knockback enhancements.
20 minutes ago, Infinitum said:Nah.
Then this conversation is a non-starter.
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39 minutes ago, Infinitum said:
That's crazy talk. Sorry you will never get me to agree on that.
Surely you'll at least agree that a teamwide 250% damage increase is too much for one person to provide, and that toning it down would help, if only slightly, with the problems this game has with excessive damage dealing potential.
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Just now, Wavicle said:
Ah, that's a good point.
The latter. Kin as a whole is ok, but it's too heavily dependent on its tier 9.Fair. Though kinetics would still be a strong set without FS IMO. Siphon power can stack three or four times for a 75-100% damage bonus as well as -dmg, Speed Boost provides teamwide +rech and +rec, Transference provides teamwide +end, Transfusion is a very strong heal, and Siphon Speed gives the caster a lot of +rech which helps their other powerset. It's generally just really strong, though obviously FS is its best feature.
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1 minute ago, Wavicle said:
And yet reading in context is an essential part of reading comprehension. You cannot in good faith read the first sentence independently of the second.
Context doesn't fix the ambiguity you've created. Are you saying kinetics is overpowered because FS is overpowered, or are you saying FS is overpowered, but kinetics isn't because FS is balanced against the weakness of the rest of the set?
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4 hours ago, siolfir said:
So I guess that it doesn't offer mez protection, but beyond that what exactly doesn't it do?
It does most of the things teams want, it just does them in very small amounts because it also does a lot of things teams don't really need. -res, +dam, -regen, +rech, and +rec are all things teams are always happy to have more of, and Time doesn't provide much of any of them, except +rech, because what it provides the most of are things that quickly become unnecessary in teams like +def, +tohit, -def, -rech, slows, and healing.
Don't get me wrong, it's a strong set that will always be providing something meaningful, but it's not strong enough to be disruptive like a lot of people here seem to think, because the things it does really well, one of which is the topic of this thread, provide a lot less value in practice than they appear to on paper.
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11 hours ago, Bartacus said:
Force Field would have the same issue IF you could cast Deflection Shield and Insulation shield on yourself AND your whole team AND they were a single power slot. Time is much better. Being able to Soft Capt Defenses with PB + Farsight for your whole team including you is far better than just being able to do it for your teammates and still having a hole when solo. That's the issue. Time does what FF does except better, and has offensive abilities to be able to use.
Time does not do what FF does except better, it does what FF does worse, but lets the caster take advantage as well. Not being able to shield yourself is, frankly, a very small price to pay in exchange for a significantly larger teamwide defense buff, teamwide Mez protection, and freedom to take Ageless if necessary, especially given FF does absolutely nothing to generate aggro and has a readily available "I'm invincible" button in PFF.
FF is worse than Time, and most other support sets, primarily because the one thing it does tends not to be particularly valuable in teams after level, I don't know, 25 or so. But guess what, that applies to Farsight + PB also. Most teams don't want for defense buffs, which is why Time, despite being incredibly powerful on paper, is not actually a highly desired powerset. It does very few of the things teams really, really want, and the things it does well tend to be things most teams don't care very much about. Without the -res from Slowed Response and the +rech from Chrono Shift it would be nearly as "bad" as FF.
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15 minutes ago, Vanden said:
They’re not poorly-named either. Their names tell you succinctly and clearly the theme of the sets, which is exactly what a set name should do.
Well we disagree on that front.
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7 minutes ago, Vanden said:
Your argument is sound, but it would only apply if the set was named poorly, which it is not.
I wasn't suggesting it was poorly named (though it is), I'm simply pointing out that the control and assault sets are poorly named, and that "this name would be fine if it was a control or assault set" is therefore not a compelling argument.
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3 hours ago, Vanden said:
If they were launching a new Controller primary set, nobody would bat an eye if it was "<something> Control." Same thing if it was a new Dominator secondary called "<something> Assault."
Just because other sets are named poorly, doesn't mean it's okay for new sets to also be named poorly. And this new set isn't a control or assault set, it's a support set, which for the most part are uniquely named.
1 hour ago, Trickshooter said:At one point, the plan wasn't to have these kind of generic names that some of the Control and elemental Melee sets have now.
It's a shame they pivoted, because all the alternative names are, IMO, way better than the generic ones. It's also very odd to me that only some of the names were changed to be generic. If they were going to pivot one way or the other they should have at least been consistent.
1 hour ago, Coyote said:unless many of the "Never Affinityers" can coalesce around an opposition candidate, I think that Affinity has built a commanding lead merely by being the one suggested by the Dev team.
Shock Therapy was suggested by the dev team too. Did those opposed to it coalesce around Electrical Affinity?
My vote would be for Electrical Conduction, which actually fits the naming convention for support sets.
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5 minutes ago, Super Atom said:
You can drop the nature argument, darkness affinity exists. Force field sounds like a description of your abilities not so much a power. You don't use force field you use force fields, what kind of force fields? Insert power name of specific field.
As does Cold Domination, but neither are good names; Cold Domination sounds like it should be a control set (and probably would have been if the control sets were named properly), and Darkness Affinity shouldn't have been named differently than its defender counterpart. And Force Field only sounds like a power set because it is a power set, it could just as easily have been a power in Devices or Traps. It would actually sound significantly more like a power set if it was called Force Fields, but it's not.
14 minutes ago, Super Atom said:We can disagree all we want but eventually a gm is gonna tell again so it's probably best we acknowledge we disagree and move on.
This is a perfectly civil conversation, but we don't have to keep having it if you don't want.
Buff +Recovery set bonuses
in Suggestions & Feedback
Posted
Your "explanations" have consisted of nothing more than you saying "this will break things" over and over, without explaining precisely how it breaks things.
All endgame builds, per you, currently build to be self-sustainable. If recovery set bonuses were to double, what adjustments could the average endgame build make to take advantage of that? Specifically, the Warshade build you mentioned would gain 0.375 end/sec from the proposed buff. What changes would you be able to make in that build to take advantage of that extra endurance, and how would those changes cause the build to be broken? I'd bet all it allows you to do is drop a slot or two from health/stamina, or swap out a recovery set bonus for something slightly better, neither of which seems broken to me.
The absolute most I could see these changes doing is making a build more able to exemplar by allowing it to replace Ageless with recovery set bonuses, which actually sounds like an improvement over what we have now.
If you want to make the case that this buff would break something, you have to actually make the case.