Galaxy Brain

You know, this is another point. It's so easy to speed through the game anyways that it further incentivizes taking the fast lane 😕

They did that because the "basic" set ideas were already done.

@Luminara, real quick: while yes, people can opt to fill the gaps with ToHit and Damage Debuffs, both of those are subject t oPurple Patch harder than how personal defenses interact with purple patch threats.

I think part of the issue (echoed again in the consolidated difficulty thread) is that there is no benefit to going after carnies over council. Defeating 100 carnies is as valuable as defeating 100 council, which is as valuable as defeating 100 Lamplighters in Night Ward, which is as valuable as defeating 100 IDF enemies, etc. Often times when given the option, people will definitely opt for the easier path if theres no reason not to. Combine that with how it is relatively easy to negate HUGE amounts of incoming threat with S/L defense and you have an environment where most "PUG" style encounters will opt for the easy route.

The only combo I'd like is that you get like, bonus damage vs stunned targets to really crank in the ST focus.

So, the AT who thematically should be the best at placating enemies needs to use a pool power?

Oh, no its not. Snap + Aimed + Fistful is like 5%-10% of the ninja output, though that is in part to the great damage ninjas can do. The *average* for all the MMs was 14% ish which included Mercs and Bots where they had much higher contributions to DPS, but this was just cycling attacks and not using the actual attack chains the AI attempts. What would be better would be to try and nail the attack chains per pet and see what compares to the 3 mm attacks after that. Though that would take a minute. Also eyeballing the equivalent powers in other sets (aside from demons and beasts) to see how they contribute.

Its kinda semantics at that point depending on if you look down from the 1.0 or up from the 0.8, but either way eyeballing the average cost is is above a 1.25x value and that I think could be looked into :< With the drawbacks for using them being the pitiful personal MM damage scale and boosted endurance costs, it is worth comparing them against Assault IMO. Could I have done more extensive analysis of the attack chains per primary along with the average attack rotation of the pet AI's for comparison? Yes, but I think the values put together are still in the right ballpark for comparison. Seeing as so many choose not to use the attacks, I feel it is important to see how they exactly stack up with and without using them. Well, lets compare: Using the base values for Defender Archery, Snap Shot + Aimed Shot + Fistful account for 18.25% of the total damage that is dealt in succession (ignoring Aim and Stunning shot which isn't really a damage power), and if done in succession they contribute 44.46% of the DPS. The Ninja personal attacks account for roughly 5.5% of the total damage output when combined with your Ninjas, and similarly when mixed in indefinitely account for ~14% of the DPS. Since this is a player set though, we can take a look at an example attack chain that tries to use as many powers as possible to sort of emulate MM's with their limited selection Unenhanced: Blazing Arrow --> Ranged Shot --> Aimed Shot --> Explosive Arrow --> Fistful of Arrows --> Snap Shot --> Blazing Arrow --> Aimed Shot --> Snap Shot --> Snap Shot 6/10 powers are from the starting 3, contributing a total of 178.93 / 561.04 damage (31.89%) ST only: Blazing Arrow --> Ranged Shot --> Aimed Shot --> Snap Shot --> Snap Shot --> Blazing Arrow 3/6 powers, 85.31/434.89 (19.62%) Enhanced (3dam/1rech/1acc/1end): Blazing Arrow --> Ranged Shot --> Aimed Shot --> Explosive Arrow --> Fistful of Arrows --> Blazing Arrow --> Aimed Shot 3/7 powers, 205.12/950.24 (21.59%) ST only: Blazing Arrow --> Ranged Shot --> Aimed Shot --> Snap Shot --> Blazing Arrow 2/5 powers, 118.42/800.11 (14.8%) [Hey, look at that] As we see, adding more to the powers via enhancement does diminish the value of the 1st three powers, but in context they still hold up better comparatively. A major difference here is that ignoring the times when you do not have upgrades, the pets' output is much more static and much harder to "compete" with given the limited tools you have. Combined with the end cost for tossing out attacks + using secondary powers on the pets for survival / buffs, + how something like Assault can give similar output over time... it gets squirrely. Its sort of like how a Defender can bring a ton of damage to a team by running assault, but you're solo. It very much depends on the encounter, but in a hypothetical "run 100 missions" type of scenario, I could see Assault giving similar benefit. This is something that could be tested though! As you mention later, running a scenario with and without personal attacks to measure the effect would be interesting. Maybe even directly measuring with and without Assault too. That said, the smooth vs lumpy feeling I think is something that is a turn off for many players when trying the attacks, depending on the primary. If your attacks don't do much besides damage, and they don't do is efficiently like with Ninjas, then it can feel like your resources could have been better spent. Worse yet, the costs of attacking and say something hits the fan and you're low on end to try and heal does not feel good. There is a reason many people skip the attacks, I have a feeling it is due to what I am observing with minimal damage contribution on top of the costs giving them a bad perception, even if using them can end up being "cheaper". It definitely does! As for the videos, does having a private vid that is shared within the forum count....?

I agree that the combat mechanics can be... archaic, but there is a line to be drawn where continual buffs no longer "work" as it gets kinda ridiculous. The Force Field example I feel is a good one as the more people who slot for personal defenses, the less and less value that set has and there isn't much buffing you could do to the set to help out in that regard.

Ok, so on average with our proposed changes, the MM personal attacks give you the following output. This is assuming the pets have 95% damage enhancement, + Supremacy, + their natural abilities alongside the MM having 95% damage enhancement, 1 end, and 1 rech SO in their attacks: Average DPS contribution = 13.55% of total DPS Average End per Sec cost = 5.49 eps That doesn't seem too bad.... until: Leadership - Assault = 11.25% damage boost to pets Leadership - Assault = 0.29 eps with 1 SO So, an MM can get roughly the same DPS contribution out of running Assault with no slots, as running all 3 of their personal attacks with full slotting. That... is not a good ratio at all. It costs 18.9x more endurance per second to use the attacks for only 1.2x the output of simply picking Assault. That end cost ratio is simply bananas. It's not much better when we emulate the output with our proposed Aggressive Mode changes (30% dam and end adjustment) as you bump up to 15.3% contribution, but still have an EPS of 4.46 which is 15.4x more expensive for only 1.36x more power. Looking into this more, something seemed a little fishy and I decided to check out the Endurance formulas for AT's. Standard Attack Endurance Cost = 0.2 * (0.8 * Recharge + 1.8) * EndConstraint * ATConstraint EndConstraint = 0.65 ATConstraint = 0.8 for most ATs primary and secondary power pools, 1.0 for Master Mind primary and secondary, and all other non-primary/secondary pools. so, normal ATs: end = 0.2 * (0.8 * Rech + 1.8) * 0.65 * 0.8 Masterminds: end = 0.2 * (0.8 * Rech + 1.8) * 0.65 * 1.0 The difference from 0.8 to 1.0 seems like it should be 20% more end cost, right? That seems to make sense, and appears fair for how MM's get "free" damage. But, when rounding up the endurance costs for all the Primary Attacks and running all the powers through this formula with both mods we see: Avg end cost for MM's mod = 10.61 Avg end cost for 0.8 mod = 8.09 Difference = MM mod is 1.31x more expensive Ok! So, it looks like MM's are paying a bit more than what is intended? If it were to be a 20% increase, their mod should be 0.96 (or rounded to 0.95), not 1.0! It appears that they are spending a bit too much endurance than necessary, which leads to slower gameplay and possibly the dropoff we see at higher level.

@everyone, take this to the main MM thread. Most of the same points are being discussed there with more data 🙂

Let's consolidate this in the main MM thread, many ideas are repeated there 🙂

If we get alternate doggos, can we make the haunts smaller doggos?

Added that in, was in a little rush yesterday with work 🙂 So, some takeaways: These values will likely change a lot with slotting, since the MM can add recharge and the pets can't. Though, as of writing this the pets will also be getting supremacy and I should really whip those values up with 3dam/1rech in the attacks at least.... Ninja Personal Attacks have the best DPS and EPS, which also explains why they're so well suited for your style Red 🙂 Robotics personal attacks at a glance seem to add a significant amount of output for the set when it comes to ST DPS, as do Mercs. Beasts and Demons also provide a significant chunk of damage with personal attacks like with Mercs and Bots, but unlike the latter sets the pets deal great damage at base too.

I gotcha, lets break it down: The Pet Damage / DPS columns were gathered from what is posted in the OP. These are the damage totals in 1 rotation of powers per pet added up, and the combined DPS of the pets added up. The "Special" Pet damage ones include factors like -Res, Criticals, or bonus pets. These values include the changes presented in the OP + Linked threads (like the +1 lvl shift and so on), and assume an even level target. Likewise, the MM column is the combined damage of their 3 attacks in 1 rotation, and their total DPS if they were to simply rotate through their powers. The Total Damage/DPS just combines the Pet and MM values, and the MM % column is the % that the MM contributes to overall damage based on these criteria.

Another thing to look at, is the % that the MM provides to the total output (estimated) alongside the pets. These values assume our changes in the OP, without Aggro Mode / Slotting. The Pet Damage / DPS columns were gathered from what is posted in the OP. These are the damage totals in 1 rotation of powers per pet added up, and the combined DPS of the pets added up. The "Special" Pet damage ones include factors like -Res, Criticals, or bonus pets. These values include the changes presented in the OP + Linked threads (like the +1 lvl shift and so on), and assume an even level target. Likewise, the MM column is the combined damage of their 3 attacks in 1 rotation, and their total DPS if they were to simply rotate through their powers. The Total Damage/DPS just combines the Pet and MM values, and the MM % column is the % that the MM contributes to overall damage based on these criteria. Pet DMG MM Damage Total Damage MM % BEASTS 756.67 124.48 881.15 14.13% DEMONS 783.57 141.89 925.46 15.33% MERCS 806.42 110.73 917.15 12.07% NECRO 954.87 134.58 1089.45 12.35% NINJAS 1139.45 78.92 1218.37 6.48% ROBOTS 661.58 108.28 769.86 14.06% THUGS 903.98 95.12 999.10 9.52% Special Pet DMG MM Damage Total Damage MM % BEASTS 998.80 124.48 1123.28 11.08% DEMONS 1314.03 141.89 1455.92 9.75% MERCS 945.18 110.73 1055.91 10.49% NECRO 1251.21 134.58 1385.79 9.71% NINJAS 1508.83 78.92 1587.75 4.97% ROBOTS 822.62 108.28 930.90 11.63% THUGS 1024.84 95.12 1119.96 8.49% Pet DPS MM DPS Total DPS MM % BEASTS 112.39 21.03 133.43 15.76% DEMONS 107.86 19.51 127.37 15.32% MERCS 75.72 16.25 91.97 17.67% NECRO 111.11 20.65 131.75 15.67% NINJAS 178.94 21.49 200.43 10.72% ROBOTS 61.17 15.64 76.81 20.36% THUGS 104.35 19.95 124.29 16.05% Special Pet DPS MM DPS Total DPS MM % BEASTS 172.87 21.03 193.90 10.85% DEMONS 180.87 19.51 200.38 9.74% MERCS 90.04 16.25 106.29 15.29% NECRO 148.92 20.65 169.56 12.18% NINJAS 191.25 21.49 212.74 10.10% ROBOTS 79.47 15.64 95.11 16.44% THUGS 168.93 19.95 188.88 10.56%

What stood out a lot though was this (The Red is with the proposed 30% boosts from Aggro Stance): In yellow are the AoEs... why are the Cones on the new sets WAY harder hitting?

The caveat I will say about this is that compared to other characters, MMs are punished much more severely in trouble scenarios. Lets say a tank bites a bit more than they can chew, they can just pop a few inspirations and truck on with little time lost. A blaster faceplants, they can wakie and be in fighting shape almost immediately. An MM seeing it's pets in danger has to go through a lot more effort to keep them *all* alive, and if they retreat they have a much longer set-up time than another AT in a similar situation who usually just has to back off and use Rest / Insps. The MM has to back off, use insps/rest, AND resummon AND reupgrade. The fact that even upon an optimal retreat you have to spend so much time getting back to normal is something that can be a bummer at times. Also, I did some digging on the Primary attacks to see where they stand... and well, two sets stand out when you look at what their total output it similar to how we did the pets: Total Damage Total Time DPA DPS AoE DPS Total End EPS BEASTS 124.48 4.84 25.72 21.03 33.16 31.98 6.61 DEMONS 141.89 5.13 27.66 19.51 33.91 35.1 6.84 MERCS 110.73 4.34 25.51 16.25 27.53 36.14 8.33 NECRO 134.58 4.03 33.39 20.65 6.27 27.82 6.9 NINJAS 78.92 3.17 24.90 21.49 34.41 21.58 6.81 ROBOTS 108.28 5.61 19.30 15.64 27.53 36.14 6.44 THUGS 95.12 4.23 22.49 19.95 30.20 34.06 8.05 Both Beasts and Demons deal respectable total damage compared to the rest of the pack, with great AoE damage output relative to other MM powers. Necro comes close to their total, but has no AoE output. Both Beasts and Demons also get hefty mechanical advantage for using their attacks through debuffs and special mechanics that support the pets. Further breakdowns can be seen below: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tiChYOEukHcOkoSCy7_odOd29scoa2eAbewnjZMoiFA/edit?usp=sharing

There is only 1 power in /energy with knockback

Huge shout out to @Bopper for compiling the data, but I have an initial run through of Animation Times: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ChnjKXOp68FGzLK2MDi5u_wtYMX0mQFwN9IFxVr9a28/edit?usp=sharing Bopper was able to pull data from 4242 individual powers that players have access to for this, and I was able to do some filtering to sort it down to a much more bite size.... 1056! From that count, we have 85 unique animation times. Its worth noting there are far more than 85 animations, but very interesting that there are so few timings. Value Count Total Avg 1.82 1056 Avg Below 1.23 551 Avg Above 2.47 505 Mode 1.67 106 Copied from that link, we see the average animation time of all unique (non temp, non incarnate, non auto) powers is 1.82s. There are more powers that are "Faster than Average" than are "Slower", and slower powers are slower than fast powers are fast (compared to the average). The most common timing is 1.67 sec, with ~10% of all powers using that timing. Top ten is below: Time Count 1.67 106 1.17 89 2.03 82 1 61 1.5 50 0.73 45 2 43 3 39 1.07 35 2.5 33 As I parse this some more, we can get more accurate data.

The damage proc could go on pets too

We *do*, but that is only at end game.

Now, to be 100% serious I do like the idea in principle. Its essentially the interface proc but with IOs, which we have an example with thanks to VEATs also getting global procs. Depending on what the procs are, I think it could be OK. As written where all powers get 100% X, than nah

What if each enhancement nerfed regen

Exactly this. As outlined in the OP and the attached threads, there are only a couple of "massive" changes with regards to individual powers here or there, but it's all in the context of all the changes put together.