battlewraith

March 16

4 hours ago, Excraft said:

Again, this is a you problem. People are offering their perspective, not to personally attack or insult you, but to have a discussion and perhaps make refinements to your idea. Do you think your idea is perfect as is? Ok, good for you. It isn't. I'll continue to say so and offer more feedback for you.

You're not adding anything. You were one of the first people to speak out against the idea. If you can't remember anything, go back and reread the thread.

If you actually don't understand the idea at this point, I can't help you. If you just don't like it--again I can't help you. I'm not here to sell you on it subjectively.

March 15

9 minutes ago, tidge said:

A strength of the player is that they can use their own imagination to self-explain their wide plethora of power choices within a necessarily balance, by character level, set of necessary restrictions.

If I saw level two characters throwing nukes around on a DFB, my thoughts would be more likely to be "there goes somebody looking for an 'easy win' button" than "what a powerfully clever decision to take a nuke at level 2."

I don't mean this as an insult, but I think this is a very clear indication of your mindset. You're viewing that behavior from a standpoint of "do they deserve it?" "Is that miniscule amount of xp actually properly earned"? I think you would absolutely see people throwing around nukes at that level because it would be fun. And different from the 100s if not 1000s of DFBs where you got your 2x xp buff and then dutifully pulled out your sands of Mu and blackwand and then ran through a bunch of the same mobs again.

You're looking at this as an easy win in the same world where someone can sit in a farm and do nothing at all and get far better rewards. Even joining a higher level team is more lucrative and would be more or less the same. If I run with a bunch of powerful characters in PI, that nuke is not going to make a damn bit of difference. It is about amusement for the person doing it, not the traditionalist bystander who is shaking their head at this breach of the proper way.

March 15

31 minutes ago, tidge said:

#1 I don't know what the OP is considering "lower level content", I'm going to proceed with teh assumption that the 'upper limit' on "lower level" is far below level 49. I'm a veteran player who plays with lower level content. I find it all completely palatable, no matter if I am encountering it organically via leveling up, or revisiting via exemplar/Ouro/TF/whatever.

So there's a lot of this type of response in the thread, which basically boils down to "I enjoy the content as is, therefore I don't support this idea."

I'm not running a poll. I would be interested in some market research to assess what the actual playerbase as a whole would be into, but I'm not put off by the tiny portion of forumgoers not liking the idea.

Imagine you had an idea for something like a new badge. And then I post that I'm a veteran player who feels that badges are a waste of time and actually detrimental to the game itself in a number of ways. Then imagine there were 10 of me in your thread saying the same thing. Is the idea therefore bad? No. It just means that rationally you should be talking about logistics of the idea and not people's subjective preferences.

50 minutes ago, tidge said:

#1b At most, I end up with one power I am not going to use/use minimally in a Level 50 build. My hot take is: if there are more than one of the first four powers (T1, T2 from primary and secondary) that are completely useless for a player... the player has likely picked the wrong AT and almost certainly isn't really interested in low level content... which is easily handled by low tier powers and/or START vendor freebies. The most reliable case when *I* end up with a T1/T2 power that is nigh-but-useless is on perma-Dominators, because the one of the first three power choices ends up being a poor choice (for me, MMV) for dedicating many slots towards as I chase sufficient +Recharge set bonuses.

Reading this, I don't think you get the point. I've played all the ATs over the course of two decades. I've got expensive builds for most of them. Given the age of the game and the extent to which people grind things in it, my roster of 50s is paltry compared to a lot of people. So the notion that ooops I picked the wrong AT is silly. As is the notion that I'm not really interested in low level content--when I like most people can easily bypass it and this is a suggestion of what I think might make that content interesting to me. I'm an outlier here in terms of preference. I doubt that I'm as much of an outlier outside of these forums. But it doesn't really matter either way, it's just an idea.

I also think you bring up another aspect to this--the plethora of prestige powers, buffs, etc. that lowbies can access to boost early level performance. The lowbie mobs weren't initially balanced for that either. But people don't like the grind, these things were added as a result, and now people take them for granted as part of the game balance.

1 hour ago, tidge said:

#3 This appears to be a rationalization for #2 that really wouldn't be born out by the game. The reason a level 4 Blaster "doesn't have control of their nuke" is, like-it-or-not, narratively explained by not having a nuke. IIRC "Every couple of minutes" was the pre-sunset timing on Blaster nukes!

A strength of the game, part of it's enduring appeal, is that it enables people to creatively engage with it to tell their own stories. The thought there was that I would have a character that discovered he could explode. Initially he could only do it once in a while, but with training he struggled to control it so that he could do it more often and in a more limited capacity (eg blasts). Do you want to police that story? Would you read someone's bio ingame, then message them saying "sorry, I don't think the narrative implicit in the game mechanics really fits with what you wrote there."

March 15

12 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

But if you don't slap a new coat of paint on it or rebrand it, then it isn't yours and we all need agency? That's the word they use now right, agency? 🙂

These discussions to me are the gaming community equivalent of the Geico "don't become your parents" ads.

"Toxic what??!?" "Why don't you just say asshole? That's a perfectly good word!"

March 15

10 minutes ago, Excraft said:

I'll ask again, how is that "breathing new life into old content" and "making lower levels more palatable" when in terms of actual game play in how this would work, it's the same thing as we have now?

This exact question was answered earlier in the discussion. It's not the same thing we have now, if it was people wouldn't be complaining. Or rather, people would still be complaining but not about the disruption to the leveling progression.

March 15

3 minutes ago, Excraft said:

To be honest, this is a you problem. Others have provided their thoughts, opinions and feedback on a public thread where you chose to post. The fact that they don't like your idea as presented doesn't mean anyone is deliberately trying to shut you down or your idea. It just means that they don't like it as presented and are offering you their critique in order to help you refine your idea. You seem to be taking that as some personal slight, and any disagreement as a personal insult and attack on you. It isn't. The only person I've seen in here saying they don't care what others want or what they think is you. That's a good indicator of where the problem is.

You don't like the idea. Lol I heard you. Just let it go.

March 15

1 minute ago, Excraft said:

I'm still waiting to see how "saga mode" address the above. That's actually how the game would play using "saga mode" and there's really no meaningful difference. So how is "saga mode breathing new life into old content"? So we can use Headsplitter or Inferno at level 2. Ok? So what? How is that "breathing new life into old content" and " making lower level content palatable again"?

We already have multiple build slots, any one of which can be limited to using SOs only.

Frankly it's a pretty basic concept. It allows for build combinations that aren't possible now, particularly at low levels.

This doesn't sound appealing to you? Okay? That's you. That's your preference. I'm not going to sell you on an ice cream flavor either.

You're not interested. I get it. I get that other people here don't like it. Why are you still nagging about it?

"While I'm sure that there are some who don't want anything to change, I suspect that most people here welcome updates to the game. I'm sorry that your idea is no good and more people don't like it. "

Thanks for the PSA. If you have anything new to add, I'm all ears.

March 15

9 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Many of those people you aren't concerned with are fine with how the game actually is now, and your proposal is out of line with how they like things now.

Exactly. They don't want anything to change. And maybe...possibly...hypothetically...they may camp out in a suggestions forum and try to shut down ideas under the guise of "helping."

Scary thought right? Oh well, people are weird lol.

March 15

8 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

As proposed, I am not a fan of this saga mode.

However, I think there is some merit in discussing a different leveling paradigm to give old dogs a new trick to learn.

In thinking about the "Saga mode" name and developing a new leveling paradigm I came up with something completely different. (I also thought the idea about having an in-game curated story arc journey was great).

Similar to battlewraith's idea, it would only be available after the character has gotten to level 50, hits the Saga mode switch, and the character is back at level one having to chose initial powers and then level up by gaining XP. This would be like the second and third build so you could always switch back if you wanted to run some 4 star content. Also similar is that the character cannot slot any IOs. But instead of being able to choose any powers at any level, the character has to choose them in the standard order, before the compression. The character is also "blessed" with a saga mode power that removes Beginners luck (https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Attack_Mechanics#Beginner's_Luck), reinstitutes the old, higher debt values, and essentially brings back the game experience from 15 - 20 years ago. Goodbye, ED!

That gives a certain population that feeling of nostalgia of playing it "hard core old school;" gives others a new challenge to overcome; or can be completely ignored just like most characters never use their other build slots.

I'm glad that even though you don't like my idea, it prompted you to do some ideation of your own.

March 15

12 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

The target audience has been said to be "veteran players" who I would assume are familiar with the game and understand builds and IO sets. Supposedly these veterans are bored of farming alts in AE to make funds for kitting out their alts. It sounds to me like those vets are interested in maximizing performance of their characters and planning out builds. Why they'd suddenly decide to limit themselves to SOs only - which is something they can already do now - seems odd.

This isn't some death sentence for the character that is set in stone. It's a gamemode that occupies a build slot, If they want to switch the character over and put IOs in there, they can do that. If they want to take an existing character that has IOs and play around in saga mode, they can do that. It's an option to play around with more build varieties, not some plot to disrupt people's min/maxing agendas.

19 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

There's quite a lot of people here who would point to this and say it already is game breaking and power creep.

Those type of people have always been around from the beginning. Getting the travel powers early. Getting other powers earlier. Having 2x always available. Being able to respec without doing the mission, and so on. These are all things people would've complained about.

I'm not concerned with how these people feel. I'm concerned with how the game actually is now. Is the proposal out of line with how things actually are now.

For instance, some people complained that saga mode would ruin low level TF like Posi. Okay, so how long does it take a typical group doing that TF at this point to complete it? How much easier and faster does having IOs make it? I suspect that having one or more saga mode characters in the mix would maybe shave a few minutes off of the run time. I think people are more aghast at what they see as an attack on principles rather than actual impact on gameplay.

March 15

5 hours ago, Troo said:

Even with this IO slotting, the power is better at higher levels, and not low level game breaking.

That looks like it would hit harder, at range, than something like total focus or headsplitter slotted with SOs.

March 15

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Now, do you want to discuss the objective assessment that I posted?

Do you want to discuss it?

Frankly I think the problem that you're pointing out is pretty ridiculous. It's like a distorted, worst-case scenario of what could possibly happen if something you don't like is implemented.

It makes no sense to me.

First of all, it's absolutely redundant. If someone with no knowledge of even the basics of the game gets pled to 50--they are in a situation where they have to make slotting/power choices out of ignorance (and presumably would make bad choices). Saga mode doesn't put them in that position, they are already there. Saga mode might make it more confusing for that person, assuming for some reason that this person with absolutely no knowledge manages to get pled to 50 and then immediately jumps into saga mode.

Compare this to an extant feature: temporal warrior. It does not require a lvl 50 to unlock and is available on the character select screen. It gives you a lvl 50 character, with all the incarnate and accolade powers available and sets you in RV, the highest pvp zone. Where that newbie will be instantly melted if there are any actual pvpers around. If I was going to fret about the new blood that is going to sustain this game--that is going to be a bad experience. But I think the devs and the playerbase understand that this is a feature for experienced players and they don't have fantasies about bumpkins dropping in there, getting traumatized, and then fleeing the game.

Now this:

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

In your own words:

On 12/31/2022 at 8:51 PM, battlewraith said:

It's a great idea and most likely the kindest thing you can do for another person.

Rocket them straight to the end. Set them loose at lvl 50 with no idea what they're doing and no money.

Hope they get chewed out on teams and turned off by the gameplay.

In the context of that thread, your post was a sarcastic retort about helping new players by power-leveling them, then sending them out into the game without the proper experiences or resources.

is fucking hilarious. First of all, because you went to the effort to dig up some old post of mine from years ago that you think incriminates me. And secondly, it doesn't actually do anything of the sort and it doesn't relate to the thing I'm proposing. I don't pl rank beginners to 50 for those reasons. Saga Mode is not for beginners. It's for experienced players. It just so happens that I can't rule out somebody else doing this. I don't think it's really that likely, I think generally speaking the people that are here and getting pled either know what they're doing or have friends/family/etc. that they play with and give them advice.

But let's say for the sake of argument, a newbie gets leveled straight to 50, and then immediately jumps into saga mode. I think there are 3 options. One is that they actually do alright and have fun with it. Two is that they have a meh build, but they team and the friendly players on the team help them along. Eventually they would learn the ropes. Three is that they really screw up and the character is unplayable.

What happens then? Lol they try something else. I did. Back in the retail days, in the heyday of this handholding lvling scheme you're holding in such high esteem, I made bad power picks. Slotted things horribly. And most importantly, just did not understand certain ATs and misused them. When that happened, I set them aside and tried again. I did not storm off in a hissy fit and leave the game. And then when pvp was added, I learned substantially different dynamics. As did a lot of other players.

So no, my incredulity was not feigned. The issue you're bringing up is so overblown and cartoonish that I cannot take it seriously.

March 14

5 minutes ago, kwsapphire said:

Honestly? Sounds like you're a terrible Mastermind. My Pacifist/Soloists are more active than that. I'll make a note not to team with you, if you can't be bothered to even use your secondaries.

I keep wondering what the level settings were for this scenario lol.

March 14

2 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Would you be kind enough to point to the refinements you've made to your idea based on constructive feedback? I don't see them. Thank you.

Read the thread, I'm not going to go digging through it for you. There haven't been refinements because the majority of the feedback has been either "this will break the game" or I don't like the idea for x,y,z reason. The majority of my response has to show some of these responses as baseless imo or contradictory to how the current game is (eg. you're "any way you slice it" statement.

6 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I'm not complaining to you. I'm offering feedback on your idea.

That's not answering the question. Why don't you make a thread about the idea you actually like?

March 14

6 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Weird take when the only people who could play in Sage Mode are those that have proven themselves by hitting 50

Whaaa? She was speculating that having a 50 wouldn't be evidence enough. There's a spate of incompetent inexperienced 50s running around maybe.

March 14

18 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I'll say again, I think sharing and discussing ideas for how to incentivize more people to play the existing content is a good thing. Expanding the WST to include story arcs would definitely achieve that and wouldn't break the game. What you suggested toward that end with saga mode is game breaking as presented for the host of reasons that have been discussed in the thread, not just by me, but many others. Posters here in this thread have provided you with many logical reasons as to why your idea isn't desirable and as presented would be detrimental to the game. Instead of objectively addressing those concerns and refining your idea, you've gone on the attack to insult anyone who disagrees with you or points out obvious flaws in your suggestion.

This is a rhetorical device that people keep doing. I made a proposal. I've either elaborated on the idea or explained why I disagree with the feedback. I don't find "the host of reasons" compelling. The issues about coding or development time, which I feel are just generic assumptions to be made about any suggestion, I've acknowledged. I think I've demonstrated repeatedly that some of the people objecting to the idea are making certain unfounded and subjective assumptions about what the player base is like and what it wants.

But then someone will pop in and post some summation along the lines of "all these people have made these good arguments and you haven't addressed anything. Which is really weird, when I pop in and see all the notifications of you going down the line and downvoting my posts, then complaining that I'm not addressing anything lol.

You mentioned the WST idea that you like. Instead of posting here again to complain to me, why don't you make a new thread about that idea and boost it? That would be something constructive. The fact that it's not happening, suggests that people don't actually care about this either way they just want an argument. I don't think you're here to help. Especially when the comments are so repetitive.

March 14

9 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I said that the game was designed to follow a format that requires players to learn how enhancements are used in order to progress effectively, and bypassing that format would leave players without that basic educational tool, not that players need to prove anything. In fact, I stated that there's nothing in the game that requires that players prove knowledge in order to progress specifically in response to the suggestion that the option be gated and only to explain why gating it wouldn't work.

And you yanked that out of context and tried to misrepresent it.

Whatevs.

The proposal requires at least a lvl 50 to unlock. If that's done in good faith, then this educational tool has been applied. If not, whatevs.

March 14

20 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Were this something the development team had any interest in adding to the game, it definitely wouldn't start below level 20. The game is scaled in the 1-19 range to give player characters the advantage. For example, a single use of an unenhanced T2 attack at level 2 is sufficient for several archetypes to defeat a +0 minion. As the character levels up, the player has to either enhance that T2 attack, or use another attack in conjunction with it, to defeat a +0 minion. Eventually, even fully enhanced to the ED cap, that T2 attack only deals a small percentage of a +0 minion's HP.

Permitting players to take multiple stronger attacks in lieu of the standardized allotment wouldn't just be deleterious to the balance of the 1-19 game, it would also create a problem for inexperienced players by directly contradicting how and what the game currently teaches about slotting enhancements. The early game is designed, and makes an effort, to gradually ease players into the process of building characters by offering slightly stronger powers at certain levels and enhancement slots at other levels, and requiring them to learn to enhance powers. This would sidestep that, giving them nigh unlimited power from the outset, which would make the first 20 levels really boring, and then everything really, really hard, for someone who doesn't understand the systems and mechanics that they need to know later in the game.

And there really isn't a way to gate this so inexperienced players wouldn't fall into the trap of failing to learn how to use enhancements properly, unless the gate is so exclusionary and arbitrary that it's impossible to pass through until they're veterans. We don't have DPS check fights, short of GMs and AVs, nor can they exist in Co* due to the extremely wide range of build variations, so nothing in the game can be used to make players prove that they know how to slot and use enhancements effectively. Putting an actual time gate, like XXX days, on the unlock would generate complaints, so that wouldn't be on the table. That only leaves things like badge collecting, or simply having X number of level 50 characters, neither of which is actually indicative of a player's grasp of enhancements and slotting.

I just don't see this as something HC would use. It works against the ongoing efforts to bring in and retain new players.

Wow. I find this to be a very patronizing way to regard other players, especially when this is a somewhat obscure game and if you end up here it's probably because you know someone or have played similar games. If people want to hop in and jump right to the endgame content, they can do that right now. They have been able to do that for a long time. And the challenge of slotting enhancements revolves around SOs, or lower. Nothing on a par with IO sets, using procs, etc. It's really not rocket science. The kind of person you're worried about is not going to stay anyways.

Or they will and it won't be an issue because they are smarter than you give them credit for.

The notion that you'd want people to prove that they know what they're doing because you're concerned about corrupting the children--yeesh.

March 14

The best way to combat toxic positivity is to not engage in it! (heroic music)

March 14

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And neither does the MM have to do anything at all a lot of the time. I've set my MMs to Walk through entire maps and not hit a single key other than for moving the character and completely cleared the maps. Can a Blaster do that? We have trade offs for the ATs. Each excels and is hampered in different ways.

Sure a blaster with an expensive build and some sort damage aura could probably do that. Depends on the setup. There are characters that can afk farm. Yes all the ATs are different and have different strengths and weaknesses. This particular challenge though comes across as just a hassle. I suspect this is primarily a QOL issue and there would not be a particularly big impact on performance if you made the upgrades passive, it would just be funner to play.

March 14

That makes playing a mastermind sound so attractive lol.

March 14

8 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

The tools that we have for managing the team experience do not allow for filtering out players that way.

I see people pretty frequently requesting certain kinds of teams. Or specifying that they are looking for certain kinds of teams. And this is aside from people that are in sgs or are using their friendslists, etc. to seek out likeminded players. Moreover, that could be something that could be added to the mode, some kind of visual marker that would indicate that they were that kind of character. I think there would be plenty of options for players to navigate this and by the mid levels it wouldn't be an issue anyway.

You don't need to share anything with people you don't want to. What you're actually worried about here is some degree of hypothetical inconvenience.

March 14

43 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

But overall, my attitude toward PvP has been cast in duracrete by my experience from other MMOs that PvP is a magnet for the sort of gamer whose sole measure of their "leet skillz" is how fast their level-capped combat monster in BiS gear can gank lowbies fresh out of the tutorial zone.

As opposed to the jacked up pver that runs into a mission and nukes hapless mobs with no real danger of being defeated. What your describing is people pursuing their goals the same way, it's just against other people.

The problem is that pvp in this game has always been that it's a certain type of pvp mode: deathmatch.

You can add incentives, you can tweak the rules, etc. but at the end of the day it's always going to be about defeating other players. And that's never going to wash with people brought up in the pve environment which is far less lethal and far more goal oriented.

If I could go back in time and get the developer's ear, I would've pushed them towards a hybrid mode that incorporated actual pve objectives. I've seen this done in other games and I think it would actually work really well with coh. If things like tanking, controlling, etc, actually had meaning in the engagement and it wasn't so easy to burn other characters down, that sort of thing could be a blast.

March 14

7 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

You do realize there are a bunch of us who don't farm, and don't PL, right? Who actually enjoy the low level content as it stands?

You seem to assume that everyone has the same playstyle that you do, which is simply not the case.

Nope. I understand that perfectly.

The reality is actually the opposite. If I make a suggestion that is too sandboxy for people's taste, individuals crawl out of the woodwork and start lecturing me about what the community is like, what it wants, why it's still here, etc. before pointing towards the door and telling me to go elsewhere.

March 14

1 minute ago, Stormwalker said:

On your first point, different people have different opinions and expectations, so I don't know why this is shocking to you.

If you don't understand why I am not interested in teaming with players who are essentially playing under a completely different ruleset than I am, then I don't know what to tell you. I am very happy with the balance of the low-level game as it currently exists. I think it's a lot of fun. I have no desire to see it radically change. I have no desire to be in a team with players whose characters have powers that are vastly overpowered for the challenge of the content that we are currently playing. I also don't want to be in a party with people whose character builds are completely out of whack because they tried to take all their high-end powers and don't have enough recharge or endurance to make those powers work, so they are basically dead weight. You would see both extremes under your proposal, which is exactly why freeform power selection was abandoned in alpha testing of the original City of Heroes.

I don't want to have a Kin defender in my team using Fulcrum Shift at level 15. I don't want to have Blasters using their nukes in my team at level 15. Level 15 content is not balanced for those abilities, and you'd end up with two scenarios:

Players who were skilled at minmaxing would completely trivialize the low level content, which would not be fun.

Players who were not skilled at minmaxing would in many cases produce completely useless builds, which would be dead weight on their teams.

We know this would happen, because, again, these are the exact reasons freeform power selection was abandoned in the CoH alpha to begin with.

But ultimately, what this really boils down to, and what people have been trying to tell you but you aren't listening to them, is a philosophical difference between you and them in what constitutes fun gameplay. You want a game which is much more of a sandbox than HC currently is. This is why people keep trying to point you to other CoH servers that ARE more sandboxy than HC, because we don't want to turn HC into those servers. We play on HC for a reason, and that reason is largely that we like the gameplay here the way it is. If we were looking for a sandbox experience, we would go play on those servers that already exist.

It's not shocking to me, I find this whole experience very typical.

I completely understand your reasoning above. What I don't understand is why you keep ignoring the obvious solution.

Don't team with these people. It's that simple. If you don't like it, don't do it.

The situation with Alpha you mention would've been the game at the start, for everyone. My proposal is for experienced players that unlock an option and are further limited with regard to enhancements.

If you saddle every suggestion with the expectation that it appeals to you or else it can't happen, maybe you could do me a solid and explain what it would need to be. Thematically, gameplay wise, etc. Because the virulent opposition to an idea that I've already said I don't see happening is pretty off the hook.

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