Maelwys

I honestly don't have the time or headspace to attempt to provide a comprehensive comparison of all Melee powersets here; so highlighting a few specific relevant examples is the best you're going to get I'm afraid. If you think that constitutes a depthless surface-glance argument then apologies. That said, I was trying to highlight that when we look at a powerset which benefits highly from BOTH Fury and Gauntlet then Tankers pull ahead - even whenever the map in question used for the comparison contains a balance of both Single Target and AoE target opportunities; let alone on a Farming map or ITF with constant AoE target saturation. Tankers are similarly 21 seconds ahead on SPINES - a set which likewise has both Fury-affecting DoTs and multiple AoEs which benefit from Gauntlet's Target Cap and Radius buffs (plus a damage aura that does NOT benefit at all from Gauntlet: Quills!)... so we can't just dismiss Fiery Melee offhand here as an anomalous data point. It's also worth noting that the listed Scrapper Pylon times in that same linked thread for Fiery Melee are 1m 16sec - a difference of 24 seconds or 31.6% longer than for a Brute. So if this specific Brute powerset ranks second best at both ST Pylon times (Scrapper wins!) and AoE+ST Trapdoor times (Tanker wins!) then Brutes are demonstrably never the best AT to use this powerset on. Whilst there is certainly an argument to be made that Brutes being "somewhere in the middle" constitutes them being in a good place balancewise... as mentioned upthread, I really think Brutes need to shine at something; otherwise why invite a Brute to a team over a different AT? ...and as a complete aside: did you notice the listed ST chain used for Firey Melee Brutes and Tankers in the Pylon times? Greater Fire Sword > Gloom > Fire Sword > Cross Punch. Half of those attacks are not Fiery Melee abilities; and IIRC Gloom's recharge time has since been lengthened so I'm not sure it's even a viable chain any more...? 😆

Firey Melee's Trapdoor Performance from that link is a decent poster child for the argument. It's a power set with lots of DoTs, so you'd rightly expect it to benefit a fair bit from Brute Fury. And its main AoE (Fire Sword Circle) also benefits from both the target cap and radius buffs of Tanker Gauntlet. The result? It's Trapdoor times are 4:25 on Tanker, 5:04 on Brute. That's a difference of 39 Seconds, or 14.7% longer on the Brute.

This. Also Brutes have to make build concessions that Tankers do not in order to hit major damage mitigation thresholds; for example. I had to make a conscious decision on my aforementioned /Stone Brute to slot fewer damage procs in order to hardcap their Fire Resistance and Fire defense. Whereas a Tanker would be procbombed to the gills...

This is 100% true - Tankers only win as long as their AoEs are saturated. They have wider cones and bigger radiuses, which means it's easier to catch more mobs than a Brute - but if you're consistently hitting the same low (e.g. not >10) number of targets on both then the Brute will pull ahead; no question. So if your playstyle means that you're not dragging the stragglers with you into the NEXT mob (e.g. unsuppressed movement via Combat Jumping or Combat Teleport or Sprint or whatever) then Brutes and/or Scrappers will be better off. Players don't always have to plonk every single AT solo into one of those big mad triple-boxing-MM AE farm maps (just us crazy ones... 🤪 ) That said, IIRC the Trapdoor test was intended to give a fair representation of a mission that contained a decent range of targets - both clumped AND spread out. It wasn't perfect and AFAIK it's since been replaced by different AE missions; but Brutes still trailed noticeably.

First up, it's been a while since anyone in the thread threw out the old tired-but-true cliche of "This game is so easy that everything works so just play whatever you have fun with". So consider it re-stated and highlighted in size 500 Bold Neon blinking letters. With that out of the way - Savage Melee is a monster; and Bio's auras will magnify kill speed regardless of whatever you ruin it on. I suspect if you directly compare a Savage/Bio Brute to a Bio/Savage Tanker with the same pool power choices (one build having Combat Teleport and the other not could easily swing things after all!) in a map with enough foes around you for the increased target cap to matter; then the Tanker would win. But observed differences could also be down to playstyle or even how playing the toon makes you feel and react- as Fury decay on a Brute pretty much necessitates "CHARGE!" full-time; whereas on a Tanker there's nothing to stop you taking the time to smell the roses occasionally. I enjoy playing all the Melee ATs, Brutes included - and at the moment I'd probably rate my new RadM/Stone Brute a bit higher than my BattleAxe/FA Brute. Both those secondaries were intentionally chosen to play to Brute strengths (e.g. Burn and Brimstone). But whenever I join a team on one of those toons I still feel as if I'm bringing less to the party than if I was on a similarly-specced Tanker. And unfortunately I know the numbers back that up; no matter how much I try to stack the deck in their favour...

Whilst replying to this thread I've been repeatedly throwing my RadMelee/StoneArmor Brute into America's Angel AFK Fire Farm map. Last night I was actively running that same toon through the DA arcs solo. All of that's been at +4/x8 and most of it was before they had a single Incarnate slot at T4 (I refuse to use Empy Merits for anything other than buying Rares + Very Rares; and there are currently still about 40 more threads to go before their last T3 slot - Judgement - gets T4'd). They can survive and solo that sort of content all day. So by that metric this toon is indeed "fine" and they "don't suck at all". Doesn't change the fact that I could make a Tanker that does it faster and with much less survivability investment though.

Dunno about the Aprocalypse, but Name Freeing implementation is due to start in two weeks time... 🤞 😉

My point was that Brutes being neither the king of Damage Output (Single target? Scrappers and Stalkers are better. AoE? Tankers are better) nor the kings of Survivability (Tankers, all day every day) means that if you want to roll up an [Insert Melee and Defensive set combination here] then opting for Brute will result in you forever being only second place at best. Also, I actually disagree a smidge on the Staff rankings - IIRC Ston leant pretty heavily into using the Epic Pool abilities, and so their Tanker Staff runs likely encountered an issue of "I have more AoE available than I can feasibly use". My own Bio/Staff Tanker actually ignores Epic Pool powers entirely, but they're still a mobile woodchipper and I'd choose to pilot them over a similarly-bepowersetted Brute any day of the week.

There's a "The Peasants are Revolting" gag in there somewhere... I'm pretty sure Kheldian performance is comfortably ahead of Brutes right now, unless you ignore/discount the whole 'Infinity Changeling' thing. I'm honestly not aware of another AT that currently has the same overarching problem as Brutes - which IMO generally comes down to "everything this toon can do could be done better if it was rerolled on a different AT using exactly the same powersets". It sucks, but AFAIK that's the current state of things. I've played a few MMORPGs over the years which have "Jack of All Trades, Master of None" classes; but they've thrown those classes a bone or two (in terms of giving them a unique ability or two, or them getting specific useful powers at an earlier level than other classes) or they have certain desirable content where a very small team is required + so a character having the ability to fulfil multiple roles simultaneously is valuable. However on CoX it's virtually never optimal to bring a Brute along over a different melee AT. Thankfully CoX is still easy enough that having an optimal team composition hardly ever matters... but a mechanically-sub-par choice is still mechanically-sub-par regardless of whether or not it's "good enough" for the content you're running. And there are a lot of people out there who are frustrated that their character can never be "the best at what they do".

I've voiced this idea before... but I'd actually quite like to see the "Brute's Fury" and "Unrelenting Fury" ATOs both tweaked to become AoE Damage and Survivability buffs (adhering to the cottage rule as they'd still buff the Brute in much the same manner as before; whilst also giving teammates a potential reason to bring a Brute over a Scrapper). For example: Unrelenting Fury could grant 5% Resistance (or a decent amount of +Absorb) and 10% Regeneration/Recovery... and Brute's Fury could grant +15% Damage (but not tied to Fury). Each of those buffs could last several seconds and stack a few times (IMO ~5-7 PPM and a 10.25 second duration that stacks up to 3 times would seem feasible, as per the existing Tanker and Dominator ATO effects) and the effects could apply in a 60ft AoE radius to all teammates (either at full or half strength depending on balance testing). Whilst that'd not hugely impact the Soloing capability of Brutes; it would make them substantially more valuable as team members - at least to smaller teams. Alternatively, the Brute's Fury ATO could simply be recoded to cause all their powers to have a chance to inflict a substantial Damage Resistance Debuff (which would buff Brute performance when solo *AND* help teams out). Meh, I can dream...

I don't think a given Brute now performs any worse in 2024 compared to that same Brute in 2019; in terms of what it can do and clearspeed (the i26p4 changes buffed overall Fury generation and Ranged power damage slightly, so they're actually a smidge better now AFAIK). However I do think the same Brute now performs much worse versus any given Tanker in 2024; compared to that same Brute versus that same Tanker in 2019 (because of the i26p4 Tanker Damage Scalar and Gauntlet changes). So yeah, I'm with @tidge on this one - Tanks were given a (IMO much needed) buff to make them viable compared to the other Melee ATs, let alone attractive compared to just bringing another Corruptor/Blaster. Whilst this by itself doesn't detract from Brute Performance; it does rather bump Brutes to the back of the queue for most folk when picking a teammate. Brutes are now demonstrably lagging behind Tankers, Stalkers and Scrappers performancewise when IO'ed and ATO'ed up. (And I for one am in the "Buff Brutes Plz" camp rather than advocating for Nerfing all the rest! )

A quick look throws up these: (Bill also mentions gaining roughly 1 vet level every 20mins, although as that was on a Claws Scrapper and roughly 5 years ago at this point, I suspect it's going to be a smidge faster on an up to date optimized Tanker build?)

Honestly, running Incarnate Content (so those DA Arcs) at x4/8 is probably your best bet if you're all T3+ and your damage mitigation isn't totally lopsided. The increased kill speed from all the Incarnate Level Shifts more than offsets the greater mob density on AE Farms. Non-Incarnate-System drops are better on AE Farms, no question. And you don't need to be T3ed or have a range of survivability and utility powers to pull maximum clear speed in custom AE maps (Travel Powers and Fold Space can really help in the DA missions IIRC; and they deal a range of damage types unlike AE) but I'm pretty sure raw XP/Hour can be pushed much higher outside the holodeck. As a totally non-definitive example; I recently took my mostly-T3'ed-with-a-few-T4 AFK-Fire-Farming RadMelee/StoneArmor Brute through the DA contact arcs; and I intentionally left the difficulty set to x4/x8 in order to see if they'd be able to cope OK with the mobs' non-Fire-typed damage and higher ToHit rate. They did just fine; and their vet level climbed just as fast if not faster than in AE maps, despite me not charging through the arcs at anything resembling a breakneck pace. (and I believe @Bill Z Bubba settled on the DA arcs as the best method of quickly increasing his vet levels to 666 some time back...?)

True that. However they can tackle the ATO imbalance whilst they're at it. If the HC Devs reworked one or both of the Brutes ATO sets so that the proc/global is brought up to par with the Stalker or Scrapper ones then they'd recover in a heartbeat. Brutes aren't in a bad place as long as you ignore ATOs and dealing maximum AoE damage at level 50. Pre-50 and expensive IOs, when soloing or on smaller teams they're still decent (and often better than an equivalent Scrapper) and I imagine that's where a lot of "the 90%" experience them...

It's actually the other way around. SOME Brutes might be a little bit better than SOME Tankers in particular circumstances. However the vast majority of the time; hitting more targets for high damage is better than hitting fewer targets for very high damage. There are a few edge cases where the mechanics of a specific power favours Brute Fury over Tanker Gauntlet; and you specifically mention Burn and Shield Charge further down your post. Both of these are good examples of an edge case. I showcased how Burn is better on a Brute in that same thread I linked above but the TL;DR version is that Burn doesn't benefit from Gauntlet's radius or target cap increases but it does benefit from Fury; and it also has the Brute 700% Damage Cap rather than the regular Pseudopet 400% damage cap. And as a result, the additional +damage% bonus from a Brute's Fury will outpace a Tanker's higher base damage pretty quickly. The relevant graphic is below, for ease of reference: Like Burn, Shield Charge also does not gain any benefit from Gauntlet's increased Target cap or Radius; and it inherits the owner's "boosts" (meaning it benefits from Fury). However unlike Burn, Shield Charge does NOT inherit the owner's "modifiers" (and so it uses the Pseudopet 400% Damage Cap rather than the Brute 700% or Tanker 500%). With ED-damage slotting, a Brute will only need about 27% Fury to break even with a Tanker... however the Tanker version will peak at 507.17 damage compared to the Brute's 400.39. Shield Charge will therefore favour Brutes at lower levels of damage buff (soloing) but that low 400% Pseudopet damage cap will greatly restrict the Brutes from gaining any benefit from additional damage buffs (such as Build Up; let alone Fulcrum Shift!) so Tankers will tend to pull ahead at higher levels of damage buff (e.g. when teaming). This is the crux of the matter, I think. The increased +50% Radius/Arc and Target Cap buffs granted by Gauntlet; alongside the Tanker higher base damage scalar will virtually always win out over Fury; assuming that you take and use your AoEs and you can keep a sufficient number of targets around you (which, I suppose is where playstyle might come into it - as if someone never fights more than 10 targets then their AoE powers having a target cap of 16 is irrelevant!) Most Tanker AoEs benefit from both the Radius and the Target Cap buff, such as Fire Sword Circle (10ft Radius and Target Cap of 10 becomes 15ft Radius and Target Cap of 16). Some Tanker AoEs only benefit from the Target Cap buff, such as Foot Stomp (15ft Radius and Target Cap of 10 becomes 15ft Radius and Target Cap of 16) This is coded via disallowing the "Radius" Strength buff on that power. A few Tanker AoEs only benefit from the Radius buff, such as Blazing Aura (8ft Radius and Target Cap of 10 becomes 12ft Radius and Target Cap of 10). This is coded via setting their "Max Targets Hit" value to a static number (rather than to "See Expression Above" and referencing the Gauntlet formula). There are also a couple of AoEs that do not benefit from either the Radius buff or the Target Cap increase (mainly Pseudopets and Quills) Whilst you really need to check CoDv2 to pick up on the nitty gritty details; you'll almost never encounter a situation in the game where a Tanker deals less AoE damage than a Brute. The sole exception I'm aware of is a Fiery Aura toon that relies on Burn for the bulk of its AoE damage output... however those are a rarity these days (a Spines/FA Brute with Quills and Blazing Aura running and Burn on Autofire might still technically be a better AFK AE Farmer than the equivalent Tanker... but only as long as you ignore the fact that Brutes require far more build investment to actually survive AFK AE Fire farming on x4/8 ever since the critter aggro behaviour changes!) and even then Blazing Aura having 12ft radius (Tanker) vs 8ft (Brute) makes the Tanker version a smidge better at aggro control.

They can also AFK AE farm (albeit not quite as fast as a Tanker even with sky-high Fury and Brimstone Procs). So there's that too.

This topic came up a few threads back but to summarise: Brutes aren't currently the "best" at anything. Scrappers and Stalkers are better than them at Spike Damage even before ATOs. After ATOs they leave Brutes in the dust. Tankers are better than them for AoE damage and survivability. On teams and farms, generally a Tanker will be better than a Brute. Brute's niche (if it has one) is that it's extremely easy to level up solo before you're fully IO'ed up. However Brutes at endgame are still more survivable than Scrappers/Stalkers and they're still better than Tankers at Single Target damage. Some of the melee damage powersets (notably Super Strength which isn't available on Scrappers) also perform pretty well overall on Brutes due to Tanker's Gauntlet not increasing Radius on certain AoEs (like Footstomp) and the fact that Damage Procs raise damage equally regardless of your base damage scalar (e.g. a Single-Stacked Rage can provide enough +ToHit to facilitate 6-slotting Footstomp with procs!) There are also specific defensive powersets which perform better on a Brute than you might expect... such as Fiery Aura (because Fury buffs Burn but Gauntlet does not) and Non-Granite Stone Armor (because Fury buffs Brimstone Armor's additional damage) and attaining 90% resistance to certain damage types on those sets plus Softcapped Defense is doable.

I mean, they're still a decent source of Influence? (Visit Ouroboros and talk to Luna. Buy Super Insps. Sell on AH. Different types come in and out of vogue; but Immortal Recoveries and Ultimates always seem to move quite quickly) Having thread salvage be Same-Account-Emailable would be a nice feature; but sending them in bulk would be a real chore without any conversion options.

The two are not mutually exclusive. If CoH was a person they'd be halfway through college by now. https://web.archive.org/web/20201110030926/https://www.technewsworld.com/story/47607.html

Taking a power to use as a single-slot mule for a useful Global/Unique when you're really starved for Enhancement slots? Sure, I can see that. I've done it myself in RoP and Stealth/Hover. But picking up Wolf Spider Armor just to house an "Impervious Skin Status Resist/Regen" isn't something I'd recommend - particularly if taking Combat Training: Defensive instead would (i) Softcap my Ranged defense and (ii) Give me an opportunity for an extra 7.5% Global Recharge that I could then use to properly Procbomb one of my attacks whilst keeping my pet summons perma. Strangely enough, I think a +Psi Resistance Soldier is the one Soldier build I don't currently have anywhere! (Now my Widows/Fortunas on the other hand...)

I may be misremembering; but my understanding of bind ordering was much the same - whenever two or more commands are submitted by the user to the game engine it's not a case of "left to right, only one valid command gets read and processed" but "left to right, all valid commands get read and processed". However since the server can only action one power activation command per tick; the last valid power activation to get processed (the rightmost one in the bind line) is the command that actually takes effect. I still have a few keybind files on my current PC that are timestamped 23rd April 2006 and contain multiple power activations on the same line (in order to toggle the likes of Sprint and Fly and Hover on + off upon the same joypad button being pressed) and I distinctly remember there being cases where my toon often got mezzed enough to drop all their toggles simultaneously... and in those cases the *rightmost* power activation command in the bind was always the toggle that switched on first (and that's the main reason these files were named what they are instead of having them the other way around!) e.g. [hover.txt] joy6 "powexec_name hover$$powexec_name fly$$bind_load_file c:\Games\coh\fly\fly.txt" [fly.txt] joy6 "powexec_name fly$$powexec_name hover$$bind_load_file c:\Games\coh\fly\hover.txt"

Nah. However if a Lieutenant gave you seventeen XP then it might produce a snigger or two from Snarky.

Looks like you've shuffled a few extra slots around? In any case... + You only have 38.3% Ranged and AoE Defense despite taking Weave. + None of your attacks are procbombed and the attacks that HAVE procs in them have inconsistent boosting (and as a result most are overslotted for recharge - as a rule of thumb, when 5-slotting a Purple set ignore the Dam/Rech and only +5 the Dam and Dam/End!) + Not sure why you're taking Crab Spider Armor AND Wolf Spider Armor on a Crabber that has Fortification? The additional Mez protection it grants is negligible and you're giving up a prime opportunity for a LoTG +7.5% Rech and substantial +Ranged Def in "Combat Training: Defensive". I'd suggest these tweaks: Arachnos Soldier (Crab Spider Soldier - Crabbermind v2).mbd I still think putting an Apocalypse set in Channelgun is a waste TBH - it has a low base DPA and its proc rate is poor. If you're going to lean into Channelgun and use it as a main attack then fair enough - but in that case don't +5 the Acc/Dam/Rech or Acc/Rech and throw another Lady Grey in it. However if you think you might be able to forgo spamming it, I'd definitely rip out the Apoc in favour of your Spiders Bite IOs, which would free up two enhancement slots and let you go for something like this instead: Arachnos Soldier (Crab Spider Soldier - Crabbermind v3).mbd

Can you post a Mids file? It's tricky to tell intricacies from a screenshot, especially whenever you appear to have "Rest" toggled on. At a glance I'm sure it's viable, but I can see some room for improvement. + I'm not sure why you swapped slots to Channelgun over Arm Lash? The ATO proc should go in whichever attack you do not use often, the other should be 6-slotted and proced. + The major AoE attacks (Frenzy and Dark Obliteration) are not proc bombed. You're also missing the Fury of the Gladiator -res proc in Frenzy which will affect pet damage - if you want to keep the Armageddon set (why?) move the Achilles' Heel proc into Arm Lash. + Why two Energy Manipulators in Stamina??

All of the power pools are designed that way. However the various "capstone" powers greatly differ in desirability. These days everyone wants Rune of Protection and Team Teleport; but hardly anyone wants Whirlwind and Acrobatics. Regular Primary and Secondary power pools have level-related prereqs too. IIRC that's one of the design philosophies of CoX - to intentionally gate access to "higher-tier" powers (regardless of how desirable or undesirable they might seem to a particular player!). At least HC have tweaked things a smidge with introducing more mid-tier powers and granting additional benefit to taking some other "less desirable" powers (as seen in the case of the Fighting Pool where taking Boxing and Kick influence the effects of Cross Punch, etc)