Zepp

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So a new universal Toggle associated with each Manipulation Set, an AoE immobilize/Sleep from a control set, A new placate with 66.67% defensive efficacy (you are vulnerable 1/3 of the time), then manipulation powers with the sustain moved to T5? The T1 immobilize coming after the AoE immobilize? That means you would need about 6 unique Manipulation powers for each set. Let's take a look (suggestions that are underlined are duplicated, other suggestions based on popularity) Atomic Manipulation: 8 [drop Atom Smasher, Negatron Slam, & Positron Cell?] Darkness Manipulation: 7 [drop Smite, Midnight Grasp, & Shadow Maul?] Devices: 9 [drop Taser, Time Bomb, & Trip Mine?] Electricity Manipulation: 5 [drop Charged Brawl, Havoc Punch, Build Up, & Thunder Strike, then add Power Boost?] Energy: 7 [drop Bone Smasher, Power Boost, Energy Punch, & Stun, then add Build Up?] Fire Manipulation: 7 [drop Combustion, Consume, & Fire Sword?] Ice Manipulation: 8 [drop Ice Sword, Frozen Fists, & Frozen Aura?] Martial Combat: 8 [drop Dragon's Tail, Throw Sand, and Storm Kick?] Mental Manipulation: 5 [drop Mind Probe, Telekinetic Thrust, & Psychic Scream, then remove Drain Psyche from Psionic Assault and add Psionic Tornado Ninja Training: 9 [drop Choking Powder, Blinding Powder, & Smoke Flash] Plant Manipulation: 6 [drop Skewer, Thorn Burst, & Ripper?] Tactical Arrow: 9 [drop Ice Arrow, Flash Arrow, and ESD Arrow?] Temporal Manipulation: 9 [drop Aging Touch, Future Pain, & Time Shift?] There is another issue, both Assault and Manipulation sets tend to have a Power Boost or Build Up type power. Should Assault Sets with one be changed to Build Up, and Manipulation Sets be changed to Power Boost? I'm thinking the T1 from the Manipulation set should be the T2, and the AoE Immobilize/Sleep should be around T6 or T7. Would Shinobi be the Defensive Toggle or would Ninja Training have two toggles? Gymnastics for Tactical Arrow? How would you deal with Field Operative?

I didn't actually put any defense or resistance into the AoE placate abilities. Sorry, I thought that had been dropped. That being said, it does make sense to shift it later, So, are you thinking T5 after the sustain? Start off with a defensive ability or the immobilize?

I was suggesting a proc that ends at level 20 in order to ease the early levels, the period when you need recharge the most, but it is hardest to come by... If you had a 7.5% Global Recharge proc that is the same as the LotG proc you could then have five of those procs without having five defense abilities...

Counter-proposal: Jump/Global Recharge proc that can be slotted in the Jump Inherent and the Jump bonus scales with level up to level, but it stops working after level 20 [similar to the five Prestige Enhancements we currently get from P2W]...

Not everyone plays on a team.

Not sure who is in your group, so I will just reply to you without respecting your asserted authority of the group/"majority" position. The assertion is that the popularity of Hasten demonstrates a perceived superiority of it over other pool powers. Furthermore, Hasten has a larger recharge buff than any of the powers characters can grab in primaries or secondaries. Furthermore, if one were to spend time in the AT threads, you would find that builds without Hasten are often criticized, and that there is a social stigma to not having Hasten in one's build. Comments in this thread reflect that sentiment. Furthermore, there are posts in this thread that exaggerate the value of Hasten (saying that it provides a 38s boost to a 90s recharge power, when it only provides 37ish seconds in builds with an unslotted power and no global recharge - 4-6s for most builds) It appears that even those that do not want the nerf acknowledge the value of the power. While it might not be "required", it is a social stigma to build without it.

Even Dominators, the most recharge-intensive AT, does not actually need Hasten at level 50. That being said, pre-47 perma-dom is very difficult without Hasten. As I have stated earlier, the OP makes a solid case for Hasten being OP compared to other Pool Powers, and that there is a social problem of Hasten being seen as a panacea. That said, I think this is best addressed through re-norming of when Hasten is used. When someone posts a build with Hasten, seriously ask, what is the benefit of Hasten in this build? This is a social issue that needs a social solution, but that is a long road.

So, @Replacement Just to clarify, the current proposed inherent is: A bar that is always building. Attacking depletes the bar. Players gain secondary effects bonuses and mez protections based on the number of segments completely full on the bar. [Archetype design incorporates minimized base threat and threat multiplier] & @Steampunkette Thoughts on the proposed identity-centric Placate abilities [previous post]? I placed them as T1 powers, but they could be moved around.

@TheAdjustor it is disingenuous to stay that because the OP is diplomatic that the original proposal was "destroyed". Adjustments have been made to try to bring consensus. Some opinions have been well thought out and well defended (such as the proposals made by the OP, others have been emotional and untenable. Unfortunately, the amount of people that comment without reading the thread or thinking through their responses have added a good amount of emotionally charged "don't touch my toys" type posts. TLDR slinging insults and making unfounded assertions is not actually a way to defend your position.

Read the last line of the post you quoted... Also, the recharge requirement for perma-hasten is basically the same as the amount of recharge you need for Perma-Dom+Hasten... In other words, adding Hasten to a Dom build does not actually significantly change the amount of Global Recharge you need from IO sets... Furthermore, I was not saying you had to get defensive powers or slot purples, I was just pointing to common mechanics used for building Global Recharge...

I've actually gone into reworking some of my builds to see if they can be just as functional without Hasten. What I've found is that Perma-PA is just out of reach (but it is close enough to be functionally perma), you need about 122.5% Global Recharge for Perma-Dom (5 purples and 5 LotGs is 82.5% and that gets you most of the way there). Most other builds I've tried really didn't need Hasten either. While I understand both perspectives, in reality Hasten is popular because people think it is OP, not because it is OP. Furthermore, a good many people invest in excessive amounts of recharge to get perma-hasten, thus making their build less effective because of Hasten. I think the community needs to move away from Hasten, but I am not sure changing the power is the way to handle what is fundamentally a social problem...

Looking at a possible rework on the sets, here is an idea that adds in the AoE Placate, some defense, and some Manipulation (added Control for Mental because otherwise it wouldn't work)... The order is kinda standardized, but could be reshuffled a tad. I've organized them alphabetically by the proposed names.

Point blank rifle shot? Still, most of the proposed sets used the rifle melee attacks from Arachnos Soldiers...

If you slot Inferno it will only receive a 12s boost if you have no other global recharge. 38s (37.06s is actually the maximum benefit) is only for a build with no global recharge and no recharge slotting for Inferno... In that case you have a lot more options than Hasten. Slotting Recharge will cut it by 45s. At that point Hasten only offers a 12s boost. If you have 100 global recharge, which is fairly easy with few compromises, you are looking at only 6s. So most builds are less than 6s benefit from Hasten. Yes, that means going from 30s to 24.4s, but it is not 34s. Saying 34s is extremely misleading. 2s is slightly misleading. 4-6s is the most accurate accounting of the actual benefit of Hasten for a 90s recharge attack.

38s if you have it unslotted and zero global recharge (pre-Hasten). For slotting it with a purple set it is only 12s. For slotting with a purple set and 110 overall global (pre-Hasten), it is a 6s difference. For slotting with a purple set and 210 overall global recharge (pre-Hasten), it is just over a 2s difference. So, depending on context, it could be 38s or 2s... it is usually between 4-6s difference for most builds. That being said, a lot of builds are looking at Hasten for just one or two powers. Many more grab extra global recharge just to get Hasten to cap...

A weak set bonus is better than no set bonus. It should be better to two-slot Achilles than to slot the Achilles proc and another non-Achilles IO.

Hard to call it a counter-suggestion as it was in the OP and the poll (making elimination the counter-proposal). I was suggesting the 0-0-0-1-2 format as an improvement because the current system does not seem to be useful. This would be in addition to the reworking or replacing of less desirable T4 and T5 powers.

And Dark Consumption for Endurance Management... The only thing making it difficult is the fact that your "attack chain" -- if you stick to a pre-determined attack chain -- is usually around 90s long...

Removing power requirements completely would be a major shift (and also lead to questioning of the ancillary pool power requirements) which would require serious consideration before moving forward. I do not currently hold a position on total removal, however I do hold the position stated in the OP that at a maximum, T4 should be one power and T5 two.

Let sets cap out at 50. Most of the set bonuses are lower than the higher level sets, so they are already weaker by design. There are, however, some situations where one might wish to slot the proc(s) and one more from the set. This is generally a bad idea for sets like Steadfast Protection, whose Three Slot bonus is reasonable, but slotting a level 30 end/res is not so hot. Or if someone wants the bonus damage from the Achilles two slot...

I was looking at Perma-PA without Hasten for an Ill/Storm Troller... This is what I have: (FF proc should cover the difference)... [work in progress] Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.3 https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer Click this DataLink to open the build! Level 50 Magic Controller Primary Power Set: Illusion Control Secondary Power Set: Storm Summoning Power Pool: Flight Power Pool: Teleportation Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: Blind -- BslGaz-Slow%(A), BslGaz-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(3), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(3), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(9) Level 1: Gale -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A) Level 2: Spectral Wounds -- Dcm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Dcm-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Dcm-Dmg/Rchg(11), Dcm-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Dcm-Acc/Dmg(13) Level 4: Deceive -- CrcPrs-Conf%(A), CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx(5), CrcPrs-Conf(5), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(7), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(7) Level 6: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(15) Level 8: Superior Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(9) Level 10: Teleport -- Jnt-EndRdx/Rng(A) Level 12: Teleport Foe -- Jnt-EndRdx/Rng(A) Level 14: Flash -- BslGaz-Slow%(A), BslGaz-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(40), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(42), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(42) Level 16: Freezing Rain -- Rgn-Knock%(A), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(17), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(17), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(34), Ann-ResDeb%(37) Level 18: Phantom Army -- ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(19), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(21), SlbAll-Dmg/Rchg(21), SlbAll-Acc/Rchg(23) Level 20: Hurricane -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A), DarWtcDsp-Slow%(23), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(25), DarWtcDsp-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(25), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb(31), FrcFdb-Rechg%(42) Level 22: Long Range Teleport -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 24: Snow Storm -- PcnoftheT--Rchg%(A) Level 26: Spectral Terror -- SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(A), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(27), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(27), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(29), SprWiloft-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(29), SprOvrPrs-Rchg/Energy Font(31) Level 28: Thunder Clap -- AbsAmz-ToHitDeb%(A), AbsAmz-EndRdx/Stun(45), AbsAmz-Acc/Rchg(45), AbsAmz-Acc/Stun/Rchg(45), AbsAmz-Stun/Rchg(46) Level 30: Steamy Mist -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(43), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(48), GldArm-3defTpProc(50) Level 32: Phantasm -- ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(A), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(33), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(34), SvrRgh-PetResDam(34) Level 35: Tornado -- ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(36), ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(36), SlbAll-Build%(37), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(37) Level 38: Lightning Storm -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Apc-Acc/Rchg(39), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(40), Dcm-Build%(40) Level 41: Indomitable Will -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(43) Level 44: Mind Over Body -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(46), Ags-Psi/Status(46) Level 47: Psionic Tornado -- PstBls-Dam%(A), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(48), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(50), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(50) Level 49: Group Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Containment Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A) Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A) Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Level 2: Swift -- Flight-I(A) Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), NmnCnv-Heal(15) Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A) Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(43) Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon ------------

So no power requirements for T4 or T5?

Of course I know it isn't completely useless. It is extremely niche, but not useless. That being said, it could do with an update.

There are a couple things I am looking at here. T4 powers should only require a single power from the pool for unlock. So Lvl 4 T1-T3, Lvl 14 + one power from the pool T4, L14 + two powers from the pool T5. The Teleport Pool (as has been discussed in two separate recent threads) needs a bit of a revamp. This pool is popular despite it needing a major renovation. Presence is the least popular pool (for good reason) and may need a revamp. There are several unpopular powers in other pools that need reconsideration/replacement. These include Phase Shift, Group Fly, Burnout, & Whirlwind. (This list is from memory, I saw the list a couple of days ago and those were the ones I remember as being low). Whether to continue work on the expansion pools must be considered.