Troo

Where is the overstatement?

Huh? What are you talking about?! Some folks don't look at the power tray as they play. Is that the overstatement? Some folks don't like combo mechanics. Is that the overstatement? Additional folks dislike random combo mechanics. Is that the overstatement? Seriously, where the heck is the over statement that you want to call out. Where?! Is 'some' too large of a sample size for you? Read the thread, it's only been a day and a half and people other than myself have said similar.

I kinda figured this is the direction it would go in. Some folks don't like combo mechanic, more folks don't like the random combo mechanic. "Please don't make me stare at the power tray in order to play a set effectively" The bar is so low right now on live Energy Melee, of course any change is a drastic improvement. I know I am repeating this part: Just give Energy Melee some small changes with the ET nerf reverted? Then go make a new power set however you want.

exactly

Bone Smasher has a chance as do others. Thanks for the extra little dig to try and say folks haven't played it.

@Xanatos Yes you are likely correct. It's just unfortunate that now we would be going down the combo path that some folks dislike on a set that didn't previously have it. Those animation speeds could be available without the combo and would we be 15 pages into the discussion? I don't think so, if people were able to get the same performance.. win-win

If it triggered off of Bone Smash it could be more efficient and make parts of the functionality available at lower levels. But that's not how Energy Assault works so...

Maybe you could expand on what the idea was and why it is where it is. Right now overall it does feel like a change, on top of a change, on top of a change, to try and make the problem fit the solution. Like the dutch boy plugging holes in the dike. I am struggling with a couple basic things on this. Wouldn't just reducing some animations times and a couple adjustments do the exact same thing? Why try so hard to cram a combo into an existing power set.

I don't know this is going live with just minor tweaks. My understanding is this an opportunity to get more eyes on it and get feedback on what works and what doesn't.

Would you feel better if folks put "It feels" in front of their take? And since I and others agree that it feels constrained with the combo mechanic. How would you like us to word it? "Totally false" is an absolute. It's pretty easy to disprove an absolute.

I agree. Unfortunately, there are folks that will try and put words in your mouth or twist what you are saying. (it's possible I am not innocent of this, but it's likely accidental) All we can do, regardless of opinion, is try and document as best we can what works / what doesn't. (work in progress for me) I'm not perfect and can get sucked into stuff that isn't going to change their mind. Often it's not worth it. Energy Melee didn't have a combo mechanic and some folks are trying to push adding one. The combo mechanic feels like it is there as a punishment. Something to control the set from being too powerful. Some folks can see that the combo mechanic doesn't need to be there to speed up some animations and make other adjustments, some can't or are unwilling to even entertain it. It's kind of lame.

When a player wants to use either of the other two combo options after Total Focus (TF), there is no fast Energy Transfer (ET) available. When exempted down below where both TF and ET are available in a build, there is no fast Energy Transfer. When a player does not use Total Focus first, there is no fast Energy Transfer. When a player wanted to wait until later levels to take Total Focus in their build, there is no fast Energy Transfer. There are no facts that change these and we could likely continue trying to pick fly shit out of the pepper. With this beta, yeah, IT IS PART TIME but it can be available somewhat often. No real point in arguing it over and over. Other topics: I believe the ET recharge and endurance change was made to address the issue with corpse blasting on the long animation. What about the TF that's still almost as long as slow ET? The recharge and endurance are nice but a poor substitute for just cancelling the power on target defeat. I get that adding a cancel could potentially open the team up to needing to proliferate it.

Yes. I also pointed out many of the changes were not listed. Which turns out those changes aren't supposed to be there.

Yeah that will be the sticking point. Because from my vantage it is not true. Part Time does not equal Full Time Being required to take a power to get it does not equal pre-nerf function. At some lower levels it is not going to be available where it was before. The benefits people are seeing are a result of the reduced animation times. Those could be had without the combo mechanic. I am glad folks are getting to see why we loved the old Energy Transfer and how big of a difference that change was. Animation times can make a big difference in the feel of the set.

Well you agree the faster Energy Transfer is nice, don't you? You agree a quicker Total Focus is a benefit? You agree that Stun was a largely skipped power? (I used it but understand if others didn't, slow and utility power) Adjustments to Energy Power and Bone Smash are a nice surprise.. etc.. We probably agree about more than we disagree on.

I appreciate your putting the positions out there with the opportunity to clarify. Your assessment of my position is off. I am NOT locked into pre-nerf Energy Melee. (but I absolutely would take it over what's live now and as soon as possible) It did seem that reverting that nerf would be simpler, less work and something that could be immediately implemented. THEN down the road after more pressing needs have been addressed, maybe we could look at some minor adjustments. In the meantime it would at least be playable in the current meta. That's not the path that was taken. I am now looking at the current beta (which isn't page 6 but Issue 27). Looking at the good, the bad, and the ugly that this proposed Energy Melee represents (which will go through changes and adjustments). I am also weighing the possibility of this going Dark Melee and getting shelved. Taking a set and overreaching has not gone so well in the recent past. I gave Energy Assault a try on three characters, I did not like it, it was definitely not Energy Melee. It is something else. Somethings that stood out: In Energy Melee, Total Focus is a T9 finisher, not the central power things key off of. I don't use a mouse to select attacks and found myself wasting the combo too much (once or twice is too much). It required my checking the power tray constantly. I would be ecstatic with all the changes minus the new combo mechanic if it included a full time fast Energy Transfer. Who wouldn't? Oh, the folks that want a combo mechanic... So that's what it appears to be boiling down to for me. Let's revert some changes that are no longer relevant (speed up some animations, fix AoE) -vs- Combo Mechanic. I'm trying to wrap up some test and will have specifics later.

Interesting. I think I agree that you are correct that melee and AoEs play pretty nice together as you've described. Cones though do not. There is a workaround to jump straight up before activating a cone which can effectively turn it into a AoE. Not a big deal for elite or experienced melee players but could be an issue for new or casual players. I think there is a 'behind the scenes' reason for it being a cone instead of PBAoE beyond just making all sets the same. There can be synergies with multiple cones in a power set, that is not absurd. Lone cone attacks can be a bit wonky to get the right position and distance to maximize number of targets. Not a huge deal.

The use of the term 'hyperbole' above is ironic. Rage is a mechanic. It is also a mechanic that in it's current form not everyone is in love with. Self +Damage, +To-Hit, Delayed Self -Defense(All), -Damage, Special Parry is also a game mechanic. There are many, many mechanics in the game. That @Replacementdoesn't know, doesn't realize or refutes this is.. well.. folks can judge for themselves. Buildup is a mechanic. It's not disliked because we can do what ever you want afterword. It is also very forgiving and straight forward. Example: it does not expire on use. What some people might not like: Combo mechanics that limit or force player choice. Example: force a particular attack chain or power selections. Combo mechanics that require players to take powers they might otherwise skip. Example: my level locked 32 Energy Melee does not have Total Focus.. Wonky combo mechanics. Example: If we take the right powers, get this one special rare enhancement, put it in just the right place, then the combo's effect can be doubled if using the specific order of... yuck The exact same changes in the current beta could have been made without adding the combo mechanic. It would have been more powerful. Simpler changes could have been made and had the same or better results across levels, play styles and user interfaces. There was/is an opportunity to improve Energy Melee rather than change it to Energy Assault. Note: @Jimmy @Captain Powerhouse It is a tiny bit frustrating/annoying that not all changes were listed. I get that it is a big list, things are in flux, could be confusing and muddying the discussion. Maybe a supplemental post or spoiler section?

I would have thought you'd recognize at some point that it is more than one or two people who disagree. Improved in "every possible way" is an pretty high bar and as such, an overstatement. Example: Players can not use Bone Smash or Stun after Total Focus if they want to have a "fast" Energy Transfer. Example: Hitting the wrong button after Total Focus can void the "fast" Energy Transfer Or 100% stun Or increased target cap. (not everyone picks powers with a mouse) Sure if your issues were limited to "more AoE" on a single target focused set and 'it's missing a combo mechanic" on a combo free set. So.. many sets still need a combo mechanic.. but don't worry about what's coming soon to a power set near you. FYI - Super Strength has a mechanic in Rage, +DEF is a mechanic, etc. Your list of mechanic free sets is shorter than you've shown.

You are definitely not alone feeling this way.

ya but you liked the combo mechanic in Energy Assault.. not everyone does.

One could argue that there is still no 'fast energy transfer'. The fast Energy Transfer requires using Total Focus (2.53 seconds) then Energy Transfer (1 second) which is close to 2.67s and possibly longer using arcanatime over two powers. I'm not sure the reason for removing the endurance from Energy Transfer but it may have to due with: "Shit! Fast Energy Transfer costs almost 40 endurance out of the box" or "Where'd my toggles go!". I love that folks are getting to see a 1 second Energy Transfer and the impact that has on the power and the set. On a high recharge build with the self damage we really could kill ourselves over using it. The current changes could be done differently without the combo mechanic and have the same benefit. The current changes could also be done with a different power as the combo initiator with better results. example: Bone Smash as the initiator and effecting Total Focus rather than Energy Transfer (give ET the old 1s animation full time)

Whirling Hands was overdue to be brought inline. (which is great that it was addressed) Energy Punch and Bone Smash are nice surprise improvements. (if they make it to production, which they might not due to beta currently over performing) Energy Punch and Bone Smash changes DO NOT make up for part time Energy Transfer. Definitely not if someone doesn't use Total Focus combo.

@Solarverse is it because it is on beta?

Arguments depending on the first draft of a power set change are potential folly. I would submit that currently, the existing beta setup could be over performing. It is also only out performing the old pre-nerf EM set IF using the powers an exact or very narrow order. In order to claim a net gain we have to first establish what we are measuring. DPS, control, single hard target, enemy groups, min/max builds, average players. Is current beta Energy Punch > Bone Smash > Energy Transfer chain out performing the old pre-nerf Energy Melee? Does the current setup avoid corpse blasting with the non TF >ET combo mechanic? If a player does attack a target which is then defeated mid animation did they waste an attack? Take the blinders off, drop the bias and open our minds. If this is the change, when the final numbers are dialed in, it is a middling solution that did nothing but add an annoying mechanic to a set that did not previously have one while failing to address a number of basic issues. (granted some folks love combo mechanics, no offense intend to yall)