Auroxis

Why are you so incessant on trivializing cases when: 1. You have no proof of these being fringe power picks since the changes haven't been live enough to datamine. 2. The numbers point towards them being great power picks. 3. "The extra survivability doesn't actually matter" is ridiculous proposition, if that was the case then you'd hardly see any Tankers at all. What about the numbers i gave that show performance differential at different levels of damage enhancement+buffs?

But if you replace that Brute on the same damage capped team with a Tanker, you'll end up with better buffs, better debuffs, better AoE, better survivability, better aggro management, and better endurance stability. Also, the Tanker doesn't just reach 90% at a +500% damage increase scenario, it reaches it way beforehand around the +300% mark.

It's not just Melt Armor. Tankers have inherently more -res for Bio, TW, Staff, StJ and Arctic Breath. They also have better values for Assault and AoE's. I think the damage buffs are too severe because at the high-end, tanker already catches up to the Brute even with moderate levels of damage buffs once you add in a few of the above factors. I also think that the changes fail to address one of the discrepancies, which is at the low-end early-game where fury's damage buff absolutely dominates. I don't think adding Bruising back in while reducing damage is the only answer, especially now with Melt Armor and Assault changes restoring Tanker to its previous levels of contribution in AV fights. But something should be done to lessen their performance at the high-end (between +250% to +450% damage) and increase their performance at the low-end (between +0% to +100% damage).

What concerns me the most about above numbers is how the curve got steeper: 1. Tanker at its lowest point (not slotted, no buffs) isn't that much better than before since Bruising made up for the tanker's reliance on enhancements and buffs to compete with a brute. 2. The +400% sweet spot isn't that rarely obtained in endgame teams, and when you couple it with the tanker's greater AoE, team buffs and -res it will often pull ahead. Abandoning bruising in favor of a higher damage multiplier and cap seems to be the primary cause of that.

Basically I'm saying that the Tanker can already leverage its advantages (better damage buff application, better -res, better leadership, procs to close the gap) to reach between 85-95% of an identical brute's solo DPS. Which makes the damage cap advantage aimed at putting the tanker at 90% of brute actually cause the tanker to overtake brute with certain builds and teammates. As for a better look at damage buff scenarios, have a look at this table which does not take -res and procs into account: Damage Buff+Enhancements Brute damage with +175% from Fury Tanker Damage (550% cap) Tanker Damage compared to Brute +0% 100*0.75*(1+1.75+0)=206.5 100*0.95*(1+0)=95 46% +100% 100*0.75*(1+1.75+1)=281.25 100*0.95*(1+1)=190 68% +200% 356 285 80% +300% 431 380 88% +400% 506 475 94% +500% 581 100*0.95*(1+4.5)=522.5 90% +600% 581 522.5 90% Damage Buff+Enhancements Brute damage with +175% from Fury Tanker Damage (500% cap) Tanker Damage compared to Brute +0% 100*0.75*(1+1.75+0)=206.5 100*0.95*(1+0)=95 46% +100% 100*0.75*(1+1.75+1)=281.25 100*0.95*(1+1)=190 68% +200% 356 285 80% +300% 431 380 88% +400% 506 475 94% +500% 581 475 82% +600% 581 475 82% Damage Buff+Enhancements Brute damage with +175% from Fury Tanker Damage (400% cap) Tanker Damage compared to Brute +0% 100*0.75*(1+1.75+0)=206.5 100*0.95*(1+0)=95 46% +100% 100*0.75*(1+1.75+1)=281.25 100*0.95*(1+1)=190 68% +200% 356 285 80% +300% 431 380 88% +400% 506 380 75% +500% 581 380 65% +600% 581 380 65% My build is around the +200% mark and shown times more akin to the +300% mark thanks to the -res debuffs and procs. Meaning that on a team with enough buffs to get me to +300% or 400%, my Bio/TW/Pyre Tanker would overtake the comparable Brute. If you get buffs even beyond that to reach both class's respective caps, which in my experience is unlikely, then my tanker would still probably overtake the brute but not by as much. Also here are the current Live numbers for comparison: Damage Buff+Enhancements Brute damage with +175% from Fury Tanker 0.8 Damage (400% cap) Tanker Damage compared to Brute +0% 100*0.75*(1+1.75+0)=206.5 100*0.8*(1+0)=80 39% +100% 100*0.75*(1+1.75+1)=281.25 100*0.8*(1+1)=160 57% +200% 356 240 67% +300% 431 320 74% +400% 506 320 63% +500% 581 320 55% +600% 581 320 55% Remember that this does not include damage procs or -res numbers, including Bruising which provides more -res than we currently have available on Pineapple.

Being at the 550% damage cap is an outlier in itself. I'm not asking to nerf the damage modifier.

It's a big enough increase to justify lowering the cap, which is just as rarely reached.

6.25% increase to one resistance debuff. 8.25% increase to a damage buff. TW/Staff/StJ already have 2.5% higher res debuff values. Bio already has a 3.33% higher res debuff value.

When you're trying to beat down hami on the first go every bit of -res helps. And you often don't get a full league or enough debuffs since you need other roles fulfilled.

Hami raids?

No, but the numbers are high even within the margin of error because the damage cap isn't in play for pylon tests.

Yes actual gameplay isnt just long drawn-out fights against single targets, it's also AoE where Tankers got a buff. And yes melt armor won't be up permanently but neither was it on my tests.

I'm currently posting pylon times, which means the Tanker's 550% damage cap isn't part of the equation and I'm still matching the top Brute times. If you remove Melt Armor+Assault and put both classes at their respective damage caps, the difference (or lack thereof) would remain about the same since you're replacing one dps buff with another. If you put both classes at the damage cap and keep the melt armor+assault advantage, my tanker would overtake the top brute which even if you assume i play/build the combo better is too much.

Since you can't reach the damage cap yourself external factors are already in play, and since Brutes can't get similar -res numbers it is definitely relevant.

I linked the highest posted TW/Bio Brute time which has almost identical numbers to the Melt Armor time I posted. And I'm not even that good with TW.

Melt Armor clearly gave me around a 10% better time, which means the "Tankers deal 90% of the damage of brutes at 550%" statement inaccurate since you're not taking the extra -res (from both the tanker's -res powers and melt armor) into account as well as not taking Assault's team buff into account. Please try to appreciate the actual tests I'm running before dismissing the time I invested as some godwin to win fake internet arguments.

The build is good enough to carry you through the content, with the only weakness while leveling being endurance recovery. So you definitely wanna pick up Victory Rush, probably in the place of Aim. And go for the recovery proc IO's when you can.

@Captain Powerhouse Since I'm posting Brute pylon times for Tankers(while having more -res): I think there's solid evidence for reducing the damage cap further at the very least. And I clearly underestimated Melt Armor, its 40s duration gives it a big advantage over Arctic Breath in terms of not interrupting your attack chain. So if you keep things as they are the Class's contribution in AV fights would be about the same as before, but only if the player picks up some extra powers in Assault and Melt Armor.

OK so either something's wrong with my earlier tests (i'm suspecting there's a bug in offensive adaptation since i had to re-toggle it last time to get -13.33% instead of -10% on the pylon) or Bio/TW tanker's just a bit too strong. First two pylons: 2:21 2:11 (less mistakes) Then tried a chain with defensive sweep and got 2:21. This indicates there's something wrong with the previous test somewhere since it should have been closer to 2:40, seeing as my Justin numbers were 3:13. It could also be due to the nature of Pylon tests that use health ticks to measure DPS, so it's possible that the Justin tests were just short of a tick somewhere. For the fun of it I went for a run with Radial Assault Hybrid toggled on, and got 1:51. Had another run with Assault Core Toggled, and got 1:34. New build, with Melt Armor: Hybrid toggled off 1:50 1:42 Hybrid toggled on 1:27 1:26

What matters is how much -res and procs you have in your build. The more -res then the less negatively affected your solo DPS will be, while the more you rely on damage procs then the more negatively affected your solo DPS would be. I'll re-create my Bio/TW Tanker (pylon record-holder for tankers) for tests later, luckily the build ran Assault from Leadership so that helps get a more accurate gauge of the changes. I'll also have runs with Defensive Sweep and Crushing Blow in the chain to see the difference (build didn't need to run Crushing Blow before). I expect to see an increase in solo DPS as Bio/TW has a bunch of -res already while not relying too much on procs for DPS, especially with the Crushing Blow chain.

I think that proccing out RM does way more to help your DPS against a Pylon than these changes (which negatively impact proc builds). RM's top time is 1:47 on Scrapper so reaching 3:20 minutes on Tanker shouldn't come as a complete surprise.

Because ideally, balancing classes isn't done by just removing a feature from one class and giving it to another. Besides, Stalkers don't need the extra boost, they have other issues like terrible AoE on certain primaries.

It definitely isn't in my experience. For Alpha in any rate.

It definitely does, depending on team composition. Or are you gonna also assume that people always team with an abundance of -res and 50+1's?

You can do that without nerfing their performance against AV's in teams.