Frosticus

Exactly. Or seismic smash. No one in their right mind would say that power doesn't convey a sense of smash. It is very fast too.

Yep pretty much. Plus scappers (well everyone really other than MM's and trollers) have consistently better access to +dam powers. A scrapper using buildup has +100% enhancement, a dom has +34% (powerup) to +68% (build up). Plus we know how well guassian proc goes into buildup powers allowing for much more burst aoe output. But most doms can't slot it as most of their +damage powers provide no tohit buff. I think at the very least doms should have their modifier for self buffing increased to match tanks. So their build up would do +80% enhancement. The fact that no "villain" AT has self modifiers as strong as scappers and blasters has always bothered me. Stalkers build up should be just as strong as scrapper. And doms' build up "should" be right up there too imo. Instead, doms +dam powers are woefully pitiful.

In addition to being more dangerous, the slow attack also carries additional opportunity cost. Dominators are a very busy AT. Clicks upon clicks. That extra 2 seconds is probably time you spend staring at recharged powers of various utility. It would be hard to convince me that combustion should have the same cast time as inferno.

Agreed. More info is almost always better. For what he was trying to highlight though I think it was sufficient. All the pbaoes ultimately do similar damage as they mostly fall within the same range of recharge time. It's only a difference of around 10 pts of damage excluding a few that have bonus dot damage for various reasons. he was just highlighting the importance of risk vs reward of the pbaoe attacks. The slow animating ones can be extremely dangerous to use, whereas the faster ones allow you to quickly vacate the area and reestablish range. All pbaoes regardless of cast time can sit unused on some teams as it is just too risky to enter the fray unless you've heavily invested in personal protection beyond what your primary offers.

Yes, I'm on the same page as you. I think just about nearly every control power should gain some kind of bonus under domination. Could you imagine having this discussion with scrappers if a third of their attacks didn't critical? It would be open and shut.

And you've only painted part of the picture too. You are probably thinking of lethal damage, that is really the only damage type that frequently faces significant resistance. Yes combustion deals more total damage than dragons tail, however; if you've used both of these attacks you would understand what he is talking about. Combustion is a really bad attack. It deals about half the damage that dragon's tail does upfront and then the "extra" damage that you highlight is dealt as a painfully slow dot over the next 7 seconds. No secondary effects.

demon/storm is good. One of the highest damage builds in the game. I never had issues playing at 0x5 from the late 20's up to +2x8 at 50. Higher than that and your pets start struggling a bit. My various other storm builds were much harder to solo. /storm MM's provides one of the best opportunities to really embrace fully playing the storm set. Everyone has to chose between storming and blasting/controlling, but a MM can still do damage and storm at the same time. I know it is en vogue right now to skip hurricane, but that seems short sighted out on a MM. You can push spawns closer together to fully maximize the cones of the demons as well as provide a ton of active mitigation for your pets via kd converted gale, hurricane and freezing rain. If I was planning a hurricane free MM I'd just play /cold. When all your pets are out including hell on earth, plus several storm summons, the damage is pretty unreal. Way way higher than my storm/sonic and fire/storm (troller).

Sort of the inverse of how controllers get free damage just by controlling things via containment. Neat idea. My only reservation is that I may plan to use my st hold in a moment on my next target, but it goes onto cool down because I havoc punched a minion.

Also of note is that savage's rending flurry is only 8ft unless you use it at full blood stacks and cause exhaustion. All other pbaoes were normalized to 15ft (excluding atom smasher sadly)- even dragon's tail (which is probably the best pbaoe doms have now aside from psi shockwave, which has higher target cap).

We accept that artctic air is a much weaker slow/-rech debuff for doms because we've been told that doms aren't buff/debuff specialist. Yet controllers have all those values (all slows and -rech) BOOSTED to match defender values because it is considered control for them. Ergo, domination should boost those attributes as well. And if we accept that domination boosts controls to higher levels than controllers then under domination they should actually have superior slows and -rech than controllers in shared powers.

People not noticing things is basically the theme of this thread. All the aoe immobs have pretty much the same cast time. Ice is the only one that actually feels any slower in game play. His point is apt and has been a long standing bug in plant control. Controllers have always gotten as much or more damage out of their primary than doms due to containment and superior buffs/debuffs and getting way more mileage out of pets. Some notable doms that bend this a bit are high recharge fire/fire leveraging embrace of fire (don't be too attached to this though) to greatly improve fire control's damage. Or a plant/ma running high uptime on envenomed blades.

So in my experience (i've been wrong before, but usually not). This doesn't preclude that doms aren't fun, or powerful. It is just information. This is roughly where doms fall in terms of single target damage. There are a few outliers (ie fire/fire), but every AT has some outliers both positive and negative. Single Target (no epic ATs) MMs (heavily variable could be 1-7th) Stalkers Scrappers Blasters Offensive Corrs Brutes Tanks Offensive Defs Doms Sentinels Trollers This is roughly where doms fall in terms of aoe damage. There are a few outliers (ie plant/ma), but every AT has some outliers both positive and negative AoE (no epic AT's) Blasters Offensive Corrs Sentinels Offensive Defs Scrappers (many brutes/tanks can do more aoe, but on avg scrap should do more) Brutes Tanks MM's Doms Stalkers Trollers *your personal dom might be higher (or lower). My ill/cold troller sits pretty high on the list for single target damage, but I'm objective enough to understand that that isn't the case for most trollers and realize they generally sit dead last.

Apologies. I thought the sarcasm was apparent. Apparently not. I just find it odd that some doms have to build the bar and some don't (after the initial 1 time). All brutes have to build fury. All sentinels have to build opportunity. Powerhouse said tanks weren't up to snuff. He has more data than us.

Yah same, I fill it once per play session usually because I'm a perma dom. So why even have it if it is so mundane? Although I'd like brutes more if they only had to build fury once and it lasted the rest of their play session.... Same with sentinel opportunity, just chaining that would be great. I'll take you at your word that you are good with numbers. You seem to be struggling with some of them in this thread, but I'll chalk that up to divergent viewpoints clouding objectivity. Anyway, there are some solid ideas in this thread with no apparent nerfing being called for. I hope powerhouse eventually makes doms shine a bit brighter. Just look at tanks now!

Perma doms dont have to fill their bar. If perma doms is super easy to achieve like you say, then why have the bar? Shouldnt all doms have to fill the bar? why only some? Is it so doms have a larger death penalty than every other AT? That seems unfair. You need to separate the argument from you. We already gathered that your dom can out tank tanks and out damage blasters. It's as easy as 1-2-3 😉 Clearly not everyone can use mids as well as you, or play at your level. But why are you gatekeeping the AT and holding that over people? I have no doubt you are a great player, you have mentioned it without end. But you assume other people are not capable players too. But player skill is nearly irrelevant to this discussion.

It's humourous because it is actually you that is arguing that domination should remain unfairly easy to maintain for anyone that hits the magic 123% recharge. Hey I can understand why you don't want the devs to look too closely at domination, that bar that needs to be actively filled was probably put in there for a reason. I mean perma doms don't even have to fill the bar, you just stand at wentworths maintaining domination which is likely not what was originally intended. but I can assure you doms are safe. they underperform in nearly every metric in nearly every combination. So why does it need to be filled for non-perma doms again? explain it like we are 5.

perma dom means dom every 90 sec with no drop. 1% off perma dom means 90 sec+ time taken to refill (approx 30 sec of active playing?). so 1% diff on rech means 30+ sec difference in the uptime of domination. No objective person would say that is designed well. They used a similarly arbitrary mechanic for fast snipe for awhile. You guys remember the tohit buff threshold that enabled fast snipe? Thankfully that was abandoned pretty quickly

I haven't seen any suggestions for dumbing it down, but maybe I missed them. I've seen suggestions for straight up buffs and a few to smooth out the bipolar nature of perma dom and 1 sec off perma dom. Why is +123% global magic, but +122% may as well have just stopped trying back at like +80% for all intents and purposes. But, maybe that is what you mean by dumbing down? Who can't keep up? Keep up to what? I was being nice though. You said you were chaining 3 attacks that are impossible to chain even at the recharge cap unless by chain you meant "use 3 attacks and stop" doms are cool, but let's be clear - the only things out there that should be outdamaging a Dom are Blasters and Stalkers. Instead they fall right in around rank 8 in single target damage and probably rank 9 in aoe out of 11 AT's (excluding epic AT's). You can like doms (I do and I think we all do in this thread) and still see the big picture.

I think part of the issue is most players would find it very difficult to make a "chain" from 3 powers that have: 22, 20, 14 sec recharges While that might work for you, I think it is important to consider a larger subset of the player base that isn't operating at, or beyond the recharge cap.

I think my issue with (many doms) is that they heavily encourage melee combat, but don't give you a complete enough suite of tools to thrive there. -Without mez protection, melee is a death sentence -Lacking tohit buffs means struggling to land critical controls when you need them most - such as when debuffs start stacking or enemies start buffing up -Melee means you are exposed to both ranged and melee damage. Some damage will be getting through as final tohit is capped at 95% and so many controls are long cycling so you may not have enough to fall back on if you poorly aim a cone, or only catch the edge with an aoe. -They have solid endurance recovery via domination, but no way of repairing health. Low hp and likely being exposed to "some" damage (cause you are facing melee and ranged) means you are relying on health, insp and procs to repair damage (excluding a very limited number of options in set). I'd resolve their mez protection in and out of dom. I'd consider a fairly sizable damage increase. Keep in mind they lack meaningful +dam powers in most sets and they have limited access to resistance debuffs and limited tohit buffs. They have a LONG way to go before they'd ever infringe on blasters damage dealing capabilities st, let alone aoe. I'd pick one direction - either you need to fill domination, or it recharges. Not both. I'd lean toward recharge as that would not impact current playstyle/builds, but would help everyone who is striving toward permadom. You aren't going to retro fit self heals into the assault sets, so I'd make it so each control power grants a small amount of absorb when used during domination. My defenders often have in excess of 300pts of absorb constantly refreshing with the ATO proc and entomb. It makes such a huge difference being able to shrug off chip damage. I think dominators would benefit tremendously if their controls granted some degree of absorb under domination. It would give you and extra second to target the enemy missed by the aoe controls (cause statistically they miss some every group) and get them locked down before they can drive your hp down significantly.

1. Yes. This is a contributing factor in why some people love mind control so much. Every power tells you that you are dominating. My ice dom basically dominates nothing haha. 2. Yes, and I would extend this to the control based dots as well. Things like st immobs delivering damage over 8+seconds. At least speed it up. 3. Maybe. I don't mind domination granting mez protection. I'd either make some dom powers immune to mez (like blasters), or give them a small amount of protection that can then be layered with domination to be more robust. 4. I've never used the frenzy power 5. yes, I hate being forced to take throwaway powers. I don't mind some subpar powers in a set as you might want to mule them, but being forced into really weak powers is irksome. That said, I would have made doms have assault primaries and then reordered the control sets so every first pick is their st hold.

I'm inclined to agree. It doesn't need both an internal recharge and a prerequisite of building. I agree recharge would make the most sense and remove much of the binary nature of either being perma dom, or crying in the corner because you are 1 second shy. I mean sure, I log in and my domination would be up, but I don't see the merit of gate-keeping that ability these days what with crashless nukes, incarnate powers and the like; that are all recharged and ready to go when I log in too.

Really enjoyed my fire/storm troller. Fantastic damage, enough control and great fun. Insane endurance consumption, but oh well.

I haven't played ninja MM in a long time (back in the days of live), but iirc smoke flash is cast upon one of your ninjas. He then uses it and starts critical attacking like mad. Given you are a /cold with unlimited endurance I'd say spam it as much as possible, it should increase damage a significant amount.

A few factors are at play. Maneuvers and veng = 2 lotg spots Maneuvers might be important to reach soft cap def Tactics+global acc bonuses can permit skipping acc slotting directly into powers allowing for more efficient slotting of attacks/procs There are more options for recovery than back in the day. P2W buffs and easier access to incarnates make endurance (if you so choose) a minor speed bump. So the pool offers decent incentive for a solo player and has always been valuable in team settings. As soon as a couple people show up running leadership it is a solid indication that the team is going to cruise through content.