Frosticus

I am 100% on board for any IO's that increase slotting options and expand cool build avenues. Elec just had several sets dedicated to them, maybe they aren't the best, but they certainly offer some options. Slotting out 5 elec powers with synapse certainly goes a long way to helping a player live out a synapse type of play. I'd enjoy more of that. Poor ice control and similar, 4 sets dedicated to slows and they are all junk. I still don't see the issue with infrigidate. Yes procs take it from "wish I could skip" to "good power", but it isn't even a top 3 "attack" on either my cold/fire or my illusion/cold. I'd be remise if it went back to being a waste of a power pick. I could also be mistaken, but I don't think most empathy (or similar) players give a hoot about what the debuff sets are doing with procs. I think they just wish someone would need their buffs and heals in the late game. Same as most controllers. They just wish their controls still had good value to teams. At least that is the sentiment I get from many threads talking about the value those sets/AT's bring in late game. I really think this whole damage proc issue is largely about certain AT's/builds not "staying in their lane". It has even been said in this very thread about how defenders invalidate corrs and how they encroach on blaster damage. It doesn't matter that neither of those are true in the least. My response is that Blasters and Scrappers left their lane first. Go die every time you jump in to a spawn first to nuke them without waiting for someone to control/aggro before you. When that starts happening again then I'll be happy to give up some of my own personal damage to help out the team. But right now the teams don't need help, so I may as well pile on more damage.

Yes and no. Webnade, trops, mortar, seekers and tripmine* are all pretty bad for procs. They either don't fire often (trips, webnade, mortar) or fire at all (seekers, tripmine). * Enemy based damage procs don't seem to work in tripmine, but ffback will trigger on you when you cast it. Maybe worth it? Poison trap is pretty good for procs, but the cast time is so slow.

Or is it the control sets being proc'd out that is upsetting? I mean I guess I could understand that my single target hold hits about as hard as your bonesmasher being cause for concern. I mean you still have total focus and energy transfer, but I get it. Or that I can turn my pbaoe stun in dark control into a decent aoe attack that hits about as hard as BU+whirling sword... But it is your fault for building a softcapped blaster, or unkillable scrapper, that doesn't NEED, or even benefit from me controlling anything. So what else would I slot it for? I don't want to step on blasters/scrappers toes here 🙂

I know I would find it helpful if I could understand what others find so upsetting about these supposed debuffing proc monsters? I see them very rarely in the game, but maybe I have a different definition of what they are. Of the debuff sets most of them suck at procs other than poison, storm and maybe time? Traps is junk for procs, some powers don't even trigger them (seekers) and the others roll them at such low chances it is a waste of time. Cold has 1 power worth proc'ing and it is single target TA is at best mediocre. What am I missing? Is it the blast sets that are being leverage by the debuffs that upset people? Ice takes some nice procs, but its aoes don't roll procs well Fire has no procs really Is it radiation and dual pistols that cause this pushback? Because even with procs those two sets don't outpace fire blast. I guess I could see a rad/storm doing a LOT of proc damage, but what does that build do for endurance, or when they get mezzed? It kind of needs ageless AND clarion to function well. And probably barrier too because it won't have much def bonuses with all those procs taking up every power.

Dom. It shines on them. You'd likely be better off with dark or illusion if you want to go controller and still have similar powers (confuse and fear).

And yet it is the high damage AT's that have generally more access to damage procs. Every melee attack has 3 and pbaoe's have 3, not including purples/special/-res procs. Ranged sets have 1, target aoes have 3, not including purples/special/-res procs. The melee AT's can easily build enough survivability to jam in all the procs they could ever want. Most people choose not to because their damage is already terrific, so they chase other bonuses like making themselves virtually unkillable.

I think the fact that you are able to get the recharge of a 20 sec power down to ~5 sec without slotting the power is much more worrisome than being able to squeeze a couple hundred extra damage out of it with procs. Yes set bonuses derived elsewhere in the build feed in to the ability to proc several powers in a build. I guess I don't see how that is any different than set bonuses feeding in to the ability to perma hasten (or any other long duration, high benefit power), or set bonuses feeding in to the ability to add incredible survivability via defense. The point is that it is very difficult to have your cake an eat it too. Very few builds can build for high rech, procs, defense, etc all at the same time. I'd say the build combinations that can might have an issue that isn't coming from procs. It is a bit of a tangent, but many of the high damage AT's can easily slot all 3 types of the -res powers. They are bonkers of some builds that already do heaps of raw damage. Comparatively they are a drop in the bucket on something like poison, cold, ta or storm and ultimately improve output much less (from a solo perspective). A blaster/scrapper able to leverage the -res procs well doesn't NEED damage procs to do absurd damage. But they can still use them almost as well as most debuffers at that point. Elec is a good pairing for Earth assault for the exact reasons you highlight. That same synergy doesn't extend to all earth assault combinations. The endurance cost of proc'd out powers is a huge concern for many/most proc builds leading to large and tangible sacrifices elsewhere in the build. My point for /cold domination is that those slots have to come form somewhere in the build. It is probably worth it, although proc'd out infrig is mostly a waste of time casting in most team scenarios. It is definitely better than many t1's that are a complete waste and are only picked because you are forced too. Under the old system Sleet used to trigger Achilles with ease hitting entire spawns with 50% -res. Now we get a single target achilies. It is still very good though I agree. Sure why not? there aren't that many powers that are worth jamming full of procs. Even seismic smash is generally best when enhanced for some internal recharge (ignoring end/acc concerns). It tends to be the highest dpa attack wherever it is found so many users may want to get it cycling as often as possible because your overall dps might drop using fillers waiting on the proc bomb seismic. I've made a lot of proc builds now across various AT's. That means I want at least 3-4 key powers to be proc'd out heavily. In doing so I always struggle with accuracy and endurance in those powers and have to build to accommodate that. I also struggle to hit def goals, usually forgoing softcap unless it is a def based combo, and struggle to hit extreme global rech. I'm usually shoehorned into tactics and have to pick either cardiac or ageless to fuel the endurance burn of proc'd attacks. If I made a more conventional build and just slotted one attack for procs I'd probably feel differently.

If I was looking at seismic smash with: 6 procs vs 6 maximized slots I'd also be sure to look at total cycle times of the power, how it is going to hit enemies, endurance cost, how it fits into an attack chain for my build and what set bonuses I'm gaining/losing and how that impacts my overall build. I don't play in a vacuum, so I rarely look at powers that way. I do that for every attack because you can't get many set bonuses if you are procing each attack and as far as playing this game goes set bonuses > procs when it comes to making it easy. Some powers are easy proc choices. As above, the example of infrigidate is shown. It turns into one of the best t1 powers with procs. I'm sure infrig has some downsides though? like recharging ~4x slower than other single target t1 debuffs? Or costing a nice chunk of endurance? What about slots to make it hit the target? If you are going to proc out infrig you end up with 5-6 slots in it unless you bend your build considerably. Where do those come from and what does that cost your build? Doesn't everyone also say you need a ton of +rech to make cold domination shine? I get why people kneejerk when they see procs. And yet most peoples' attempts at proc builds end up pretty bad because of the various other factors that you have to juggle. Believe it or not, adding fury of the glad -res to burn results in a comparable dps increase on my scrapper than 15 damage procs contribute to my poison/fire. And then there is the critical strikes proc eclipsing that. A major damage proc nerf will just cause proc builds to go back to softcapped def+perma hasten (trivial to build on most combos) and need/benefit from teams even less. At least all mine will.

I've done a lot of solo av/gms on my poison/fire defender. It is about as far removed from ill/rad as you can get in terms of play style. A good solo character, but even better in teams.

Additionally, the fallacy that defenders are doing corruptor level damage needs to stop. Yes you can make a solo defender that is right in there with corruptor damage if we ignore scourge. Big deal. Neither AT solos in the same realm as scrappers, brutes, controllers, mms, and more. The second you get on a team the defenders damage drops (vigilance) and the corrs superior ability to respond to buffs takes over. Corrs have higher base damage, a higher cap and scourge. It isn't even close.

Yes, but I don't think they will ever be very effective compared to some of the major ATs. At the end of the day (as a whole) they don't stand up well as content becomes more difficult. Their controls lose effectiveness and their damage is difficult to leverage sometimes. I dont see their control side ever being fixed in any meaningful way, so I'd address their damage. For each rank of enemy it would increase. Minion (current) LT (1.05X) Boss (1.15x) Ev/av ( 1.25x) GM(1.3x) That would be in line with the idea of a dominator. The more you resist their will the more they make you wish you hadn't. As a result, difficult-to-control enemies feel their wrath.

But you could, if you were so inclined, make the exact same statement about the excessive ease of acquiring survivability bonuses. I like procs. I think they add a lot more to build dynamics than the standard +rech and + def approach, but I know it isn't for everyone. I guess for me I'd want any serious reduction in procs to be mirrored in most of the other bonuses that the IO system promotes. I use procs on my scrapper too and it does a LOT more damage than my defender before procs. With procs it is not even a comparison. In fact, one proc in particular eclipses all the additional damage that 15+ damage procs give my defender. I can even forcemultiply better than some defenders thanks to the -res procs. I dont get upset when a defender fires off a proc bomb poison trap. I say "sweet". It isn't vaporizing +4s. I do get frustrated with blasters that require little support nuking spawn after spawn . (Hint 3 dam/rech, 3 procs). I think that has hurt the game maybe more than ios or procs.

I dunno, they just gave energy melee to scrappers. Have you tried it? I have and it makes me confident they aren't worried about ANYONE doing too much damage. I don't think defenders jamming procs into dominate at the cost of set bonuses and any recharge in the power is a problem from a "damage perspective". Damage that can only be improved through debuffs inherently means it isn't going to scale well in teams. Conversely, I don't think a defender deriving a good portion of their damage from procs infringes on blasters in the least. Have you ever seen what happens to blaster damage with team buffs+debuffs? A lot more than what happens to defender damage. The IO system still supports way more increases in survivability than it does in damage output. A blaster that softcaps def is a much bigger deviation from the base AT than a defender that jams in damage procs. I know damage procs upset people, but I can only hope they nerf the -res procs at the same time. Blasters and scrappers putting out more -res than my defender...there's no real justification for that IMO.

As above, give it a whirl. Good opportunity to show off the TA buffs. I'm not sure x/TA (ill/ta would be the best shot) could even get him to the point he'd need to use Dull Pain to show off the -heal debuff. (no insp/temps/lore/amps). 99% of the fun of this encounter was solving for the challenges that he presents. The fight itself is awfully boring, but it only takes 20 min or so to get to him to try out ideas. Edit: I also think dullpain might be unresistable so it might be immune to -heal. But I'm not that familiar with the power.

If you can manage it then that certainly eliminates a big hurdle in the encounter. I have no idea if that is what I did. Earlier when I described the encounter he used DP right as I powered up with assault hybrid and a fresh heatloss. Over those next 2 mins I erased the vast majority of the health he had gained. I was actually taken aback at how fast I chunked him down right after he healed. I was preparing for him to use it again at the end of the fight, but he never did. We can't see their power tray haha so I dunno if it simply hadn't recharged or I was lucky enough to interupt it.

I say give it a whirl. Khans regen is far from the biggest hurdle to overcome in the fight though. His fist of the heavens is a high mag stun that he spams the hell out of. I'm pretty sure it stuns me through rune of protection. Probably stun a build with no -special for about 15 seconds at least. When he has crashless unstoppable up he is essentially immune to all damage (except psi). My purple proc shows 1.18 damage and that is with about 100% -res on him. You also have to outpace his dullpain cycle. I think that was about an 80k heal + hp/regen increase. All while chewing through 225k hp (base hp)

I think there might be some confusion or misunderstanding as not everyone is talking about the same thing. I think many characters in the game could solo MoKhan. That's because MO doesn't block inspirations, or lore pets. Some temp powers also aren't counted against MO. The only reason the MoKhan I did with ill/cold is noteworthy is because it was specifically without inspirations, lore, amps or any temps. Lots of builds can make headway until he starts cycling unstoppable and dull pain. You can see in the screens I attached what his unstoppable does to damage output (it might be 99% resistance?) The list of builds that can succeed under those conditions is very short. I don't have thermal on that list myself, but that isn't to say it can't be done.

I think sleet is underrated as a mitigative tool because it is such a powerful offensive tool. i don't personally think either set is terrific if your goal is to solo, not compared to sets like dark or traps. Cold has little to help recover from hits and therm has little to slow them down. Both can be made fantastic with the right pairing and IO's though. Cold has a much higher ceiling than therm in terms of what it can accomplish before employing assistance aids like insp/temps. I can't forsee many things that either set couldn't accomplish with temps/insp in play though.

I think everyone will have a different answer for this. I know how I define it and did as such in the OP - no insp/temps/lore/amps. If I was going to employ any of those I would change the build accordingly, maybe drastically. I dont personally see any difference between a scrapper using envenom daggers and a defender using temp pets. Similarly, once I use insp I don't see anything holding back the flow of super insp and/or emailing them. But that is specific to me and this particular character. Others have different parameters and that is fine. I know there are people that have solo'd khan in like 15 mins with temps and insp, so there is a pretty big grey area of what "solo" means and subsequently what "levels of soloability" could be interpreted as.

The cool down on the hide proc is annoying to say the least. The fact that it is undocumented and most don't know about it doesn't help. I spent a long time frustrated on my sav stalker and ultimately became fatigued trying to optimize a chain that maximized blood stacks, assassins focus, proc probability AND the hide timer. For a long time I was unaware of the timer and was using a ~7 sec chain. All I knew is I wasn't getting near the amount of 'hidden" procs as I should have been. Unbeknownst to me, I was actually inducing a nearly 14 sec timer between hide procs. The build up refresh proc is great and this is a first world problem, but the cast time does eat in to some of your damage so it isn't as amazing as it appears in some situations. I love it for aoe trash clearing though. Other than that, if a target will stand and fight you the crit proc for scrappers can be ludicrous with seemingly endless streams of crits.

To answer your question: it depends But bio does more than boost your damage, it also buffs your tohit, lowers enemy resistance and adds a small toxic proc to most damaging powers.

Indeed. I went mu on my sav/shield for even more aoe + snipe. I'd probably go soul on /dark tho. Shadowmeld is hard to pass up. You definitely want a snipe though since hemo was overnerfed. Chance for build up goes anywhere. It is passive. Just make sure you use said power at least once when you log in (maybe per map?) or it seems to fail to trigger. Chance for hide should go in AS so you can follow up with snipe crit for bosses. Or rending flurry crit for groups. It is pretty effective. Although one could see some value from putting it on savage leap too. But I feel other procs are better there.

Put avalanche knockdown into your burn on a scrapper. You should be able to kill off most things before they get up to flee. Sometimes hilarity will ensure and the proc will stack rapidly and launch an enemy or two across the way.

Hilariously on my EM/FA scrap the 0 cost of ET allowed me to get out of a sapper situation that I wasn't paying attention to.

Haunts are very different than PA. Their description/power listing is a bit misleading which might lead to expectations not being met. That said, dark/cold should have no issues bringing down lots of tough targets and is a very good controller.