Onlyasandwich

Case in point - me. Fair enough! I do have a bit of that leftover anti-healer energy from being steeped in the Defender forums so long. I can see where healing would be much more valuable in some of the uniquely difficult content being created. This is a good thing, of course - I think the game needs room for all approaches to provide value. In that case, having a set that provides near-empathy levels of healing but with a more offensive mix of tools elsewhere would be quite handy indeed, and resist buffing is harder to come by than defense. Meanwhile, I have dropped Melt Armor and specced into Rise of the Phoenix. It is rather nice having a get up and go button to delete mistakes.

That makes sense. I was a bit surprised to see that it ends up with the same debuff value as the Tanker Pyre version, given the strong Dom modifier as you mentioned. I'm not sure what the right answer here is for changes! I agree that Fire could easily tip into the "default" Epic (I feel like Ice holds this title now with the power of Sleet), so the balance is a careful one. I honestly agree with @Hedgefund on the Thermal power as well! When I was evaluating whether I would make a Plants/Thermal controller or Plants/Fiery Dom, I was left wondering what exactly /Thermal has going for it above /Storm or /Cold that justifies Melt Armor being so much weaker than Freezing Rain/Sleet. Don't get me wrong, it's totally worth taking in Thermal, and is much better than the epic version, but it seems to me that the power budget of Thermal is a fair shade short of many other sets if you compare the whole package. @Yomo Kimyata I'm glad you enjoy it! Once you have some recharge going, the on paper uptime is not so bad. However, in an aoe situation I find that the mobs will melt faster if I just used that animation time on a power that does damage, as the -resist duration doesn't really get a lot of time to pay off. If you are lacking in aoe damage otherwise, perhaps this is less true, but just by taking the Fire epic pool you have access to two very solid aoes. This does change on hard targets, and I'm sure it pulls positive including it in the chain against AV's/GMs. However, it feels pretty piddly in practice. I would almost prefer it even to be a stronger debuff that is only single target if this is the use case for it.

Electric is super active, and also quite strong.

I finally have my shiny new Plant/Fire/Fire up to 50, and am re-evaluating bits of my build before a potential final respec. I initially picked Melt Armor because it seemed at least sort of useful for a low slot investment, and I only have one or two other powers that might fit in functionally with minimal slotting. Besides, who doesn't like aoe resist debuffs? In practice, I'm finding it pretty much useless. Have any of you found a proper use case for this power? In aoe situations, the animation time is generally wasted. My juicy aoes will do a better job of blowing up big groups, and I have a healthy rotation because hey - Fire pool gives me two extra aoes! In hard ST fights, the (even enhanced) very high recharge means I have low up-time on the debuff. It's sort of worth it mathing it out, but pretty borderline. It's not even a great spot for the achilles proc, as the high recharge means up-time for the proc is proportionally low, even if it is firing off 90% of the time. I can appreciate why it shouldn't compare to the majesty of sleet, as Fire APP has some other love going for it in fireball and another good aoe if you want it. However, I really think it would justify one or more of the following: Bigger radius. More targets! Currently limited to 10 in the APP version. Literally like half the recharge. Higher -res. Maybe instead some interesting extra spice - an extra dose of moderate dot perhaps? What do you think? Am I underestimating this power, or is it as poopy as it feels? As it stands, I'm considering just dropping it for Rise of the Phoenix. Doms do die on occasion, after all. Also - conditional dom nuke! : )

I'm just picturing your WM character wielding your Claws character like an oddly shaped demonic bludgeon.

Depending on what set bonuses you are chasing, no reason you can't have both purple procs in one power. It's not bad to have apoc proc in regular old ice blast, but typically a bit suboptimal for proc math

All you need are some fire or energy procs in an AoE. Acid Arrow is a good option here, even though I will typically have a solid AoE I want to drop a proc or two in anyhow. No need to actually target the oil slick - just let the procs do their work while you unload your attacks.

Also not a huge BFR fan, but can appreciate why some folks might want back to back hold stacking. With high enough global recharge, FR itself comes back quickly enough for my purposes in stacking. As for FR, I typically do a combo of baseline enhancement + damage procs. Superior Winter's Bite Acc/Dam and Acc/Dam/End Purple hold proc, ghost widow and Neuronic proc, Javelin proc. I typically leave the Apoc proc for my 5 slot Apoc elsewhere. This goes in Bitter Ice blast for me. Along with Intuition radial Alpha, this gives me solid damage enhancement, solid acc, and great extra fun from procs. This alpha is also great for the added hold enhancement and range! Alternatively, an Acc/Dam HO +3 and the Apoc Damage IO +5 will max out your ED and give okay acc for two slots, leaving the other 4 for whatever procs you like. This is more viable if you have higher global acc/tohit sources. Typically the straight Damage Apoc IO is the one I skip in my 5 slot Apoc elsewhere, so it doesn't get in the way of 5 slot for that set.

That is indeed the trade-off! If you are soloing AV's, I can see where this would be a priority.

Procced mesmerize isn't actually bad at all. You can give it some efficient baseline slotting by parting out purples/Winter set and/or HOs, then fill to taste with procs. For example: Winter acc/dam acc/dam/end Apoc Dam/End Apoc Proc, Sandman heal proc Glad javelin proc. Gets you ~200 damage on average with a nice chance to proc heal incorporated into your ST chain. Not terrible. Dominate gives you stronger procability of course, with more options. You can get ~300 damage out of procced dominate with a similar slotting strategy. Mesmerize as above will be roughly similar damage to a fully procced out Stone Spears, though stone spears will be solidly better DPA. Stone spears of course won't have the sleep or heal, and is different damage type. Hurl boulder and your melee attacks will show superior performance, of course, but there's no reason why you can't use them in addition to procced Mesmerize and Dominate. Just match for whatever best fills your attack chain, and how much you want to mix it in with melee. All this is balanced against what set bonuses you would be giving up by doing so, of course. There is room for several approaches!

Looks like a nice step forward! You could swap 2 of the lotgs in manuevers to match the scaling resist IO, providing better set bonuses with no other change. Kismet can go in combat combat jumping for better exemp access. No reason not to. Personally I would drop soul transfer, but perhaps you enjoy it. You could swap it for frostwork, which is pretty nice. Tankers without a dull pain power especially enjoy it. This gives you a mule for PM absorb proc, freeing up another slot even. One of the soul transfer slots could match the botz in super speed to maintain ranged defense, and the other two could be javelin proc in sirens and something else fun.

Excellent build! One thing I have traditionally struggled with in /Sonic is optimal placement of the Defender ATOs. I think what you've done here is about as good as you can get from this perspective. In a perfect world, I'd have the heal and/or the shield proc in a single target big hitter so they go off often even in single target scenarios, but Shout is just sort of a disappointing power. Your defense totals are really impressive considering the solid global recharge you are maintaining as well, and you've nearly maxed out slow resist to boot. Honestly it's a really tight build as is, and will serve you well! I'll definitely have to revisit my own Defenders with /Sonic to consider what I might do with Siren's. Although it's not a nuke by any measure, it gives you a punchy follow-up that takes advantage of Howl's debuff, and keeps you safe when solo. Given the really solid return, I'd try to find room for the Javelin proc as well. Personally I'm not huge on the Achille's proc in sleet/freezing rain, as the application is fairly uneven across the group, though it comes out well enough if it gets to run the full duration. This is a matter of taste, really. Benumb could use a bit of local recharge help here, though it's not a requirement. Having this perma will be useful on lower damage teams or if you are trying ambitious solo AV work. I can definitely see the appeal of stacking oppressive gloom with the nuke, and of course the goodness that is Soul Drain. However, one thing I find lacking on /Sonic that is not solved by the Dark APP is a punchy single target power to follow up on your rather dinky blasts, leveraging their debuffs. Bosses tend to take quite a bit of yelling. For this reason, I prefer to grab an epic with a proccable hold, which gives you that missing piece. Procced infrigidate is another option here, though it can't take the two purple procs a hold can. It has some unique effects as a useful debuff too. The lack of the Apoc damage proc is a real missed opportunity to punch up your ST damage as well. Even if you keep your current epic, it's worth considering proccing Screech with apoc and javelin, giving you a fairly punchy blast with a handy stun and a much longer duration -resist debuff. I would prefer the proccy hold, but this is something I played with when optimizing my Rad/Sonic and it worked out pretty nicely. This would also be a bit more support oriented, as you will stack more -res on hard targets. I realize these slots would have to come from somewhere, so they may not be easy transitions to make! I would consider backing off of total Ranged/melee softcap focus a little and allowing yourself to neglect a few of these bonuses in favor of more personal damage and resistances. You have some good layers to fall back on between a broad base of resists and soft controls, and of course can bridge the gap easily on teams or with a purple when needed. Soul Transfer appears to basically just be a really heavily invested mule. It would be nice if these IOs were enhancing a great power in addition to providing nice bonuses for the build. A goal is a goal, in any case! Softcap is a proven tool, and it is by no means a bad choice to chase it. A consideration for Ranged defense and free slots: Drop Soul Transfer and pick up teleport or super speed. Take 3 of those 5 slots and use them to go 2 slot blessing of the zephyr in Combat teleport, teleport target, and teleport/superspeed. Now you have higher ranged defense and 2 extra slots. Also more KB protection! It makes a noticeable difference stacking 8+ vs just 4. You can still get your stealth from superspeed, and/or just drop the celerity IO in Sprint. Finally, I'm guessing this is by design, but I noticed you didn't use any of the +res uniques. Given your already highish resistances, the return on additional resist is proportionally higher. It looks like this might be due to tight requirements in slotting for multiple defense positions, and I think the build as a whole may suffer a bit for it. All that being said, it's very impressive to reach both melee and ranged softcap while still squeezing in extra damage here and there! It is definitely a worthy goal, just different to how I would approach it myself. Given your stated goals, you'll do just fine.

TA in all forms is definitely fun! This character is more about optimizing for this specific theme, which is Plants and flamey stuff. Dom Plants/Fiery is definitely where I am. : ) @DreadShinobi provided some really useful insight on my Seeds slotting, and I've updated that in the OP. On a perma-dom, no real use for the contagious confusion proc, as domination will handle boss magnitude anyhow! I'm also not chasing ranged D, so even less motivation to hit that purple set. As a result, I can get even more damage swapping to 5 piece Malaise + caco proc. This does eat a small amount of global recharge. I'm considering whether it would then be worthwhile to swap my posi slotting in Fire Breath to 5 piece Rag. It would lose a damage proc, but juice up recharge a bit more, along with some more global acc. The knockdown proc isn't necessarily a waste either. I might first just try running with recharge totals as is to see how close to the wire it feels for perma-dom.

Just an update to say oh my - Carrion Creepers is the most wonderfully fun power. Worth the price of admission alone!

Thank you for the additional thoughts, @oedipus_tex! I have about a million iterations of kinetics, so not the path for this specific character. I can imagine that the pairing is quite potent indeed, however.

You don't take Grant Cover for it's defensive value - you take it because it is an important element in your Defense Debuff resistance. It also provides modest Recharge Debuff resistance as well, which is quite useful. You can certainly take Maneuvers on top of that, but I wouldn't forego Grant Cover on any Shield character. The DDR especially is very important.

Yeah, "usual logic" might be a misnomer here.😂 I'll take it how it is for sure though. It's fun to optimize for weirdness when it creates such fantastic returns.

Got it! I was going off the usual logic of procs in pet powers. It's good to understand that there are exceptions! I wonder how many other pets might have similar exceptions.

It seems counterintuitive that the vine powers would proc ranged aoe damage procs, as vine smash and vine thorn are both single target. What matters most of course is what procs produce the best end result, for which your testing provides a great baseline. Still, it would be interesting to see this parsed out further by proc and specific pet power to understand the behavior.

Thank you for sharing the excellent build, @oedipus_tex! I will comb through it for slotting strategies to adapt into mine. I do understand the basic difference between the Fire sets at play here. Perhaps a better way to state my question is which one is a more interesting synergy with the primary. My goal of absolute damage is relative to the AT involved. I have pretty firmly decided that Plant/Fire dom will be a much better choice, in any case. /Fire on controllers doesn't really offer anything particularly compelling to this thematic combo other than a nicer version of melt armor and a good regen debuff for AVs. This build does indeed forego many defense opportunities! That is intentional. I'm certain that going with higher defense would be smoother play, but am dropping all pretense of caring about defense here in order to grab every drop of damage possible. I have plenty of softcap builds and am itching to drop the shackles of those defense set bonuses! My hope is that Plant's powerful controls on a dom will be enough to stay alive with careful application. This build is also married to Fire epic for thematic reasons. @Carnifax did some great testing on Carrion Creepers regarding optimal proc slotting, and I thought it would be useful to share here as well for any who might be interested: As a result, I've come to the following slotting as pretty optimal: Bombardment Acc/Dam/Rech, Bombardment Proc. Ragnarok Acc/Dam/Rech +5'd Posi Proc, Javelin Proc, Trap of the Hunter Proc.

@Carnifax shared some testing that could have a dramatic impact of proc damage in Carrion Creepers:

Thank you so much for the testing, @Carnifax! I hadn't really understood the idea that the controller proc will only proc on control effects, though of course it makes sense since it's only slottable in control powers. This makes creepers a fairly suboptimal place for the set. It's also useful to see that although there are technically more slow powers between the creeper entities, the Ranged aoe power is more impactful overall from a proc perspective. Basically, proc efforts are best focused towards the effects of the Bramble/Entangle powers and entity, rather than the powers from the Vines entity.

Hello and good evening! Edit: Updated build. Another update! Rounded out recharge, lost some S/L resist. Recently I started a thread on the controller forums looking to optimize a Plant/Fire controller for a new character theme I put together. The goal of this build was to cram in as much damage as possible while eschewing defense, relying on my controls to do the heavy lifting for survival. However, it occurs to me that controlling while doing as much damage as possible is kinda built-in to Doms, and hey presto, free mez protection as well! Why was I making this as a controller? I'm still building the controller in any case, but am not terribly inspired by Fire as a support set. So here I am with a first pass build in dom form, and I'd love a look from your lovely eyes. A few priorities: Damage first! I am valuing defense at basically nothing on this build, though I'm still grabbing the uniques. If you think of a high-impact use for the slot one of the uniques takes even, suggest away! I'm not saying defense is in reality useless, but it is the challenge I am giving myself in playing this build. Positioning. I like that /Fiery allows for ranged positioning, which meshes well with lining up Seeds. I'm not inherently against melee at all, but don't think Incinerate is worth it in this case (definitely not combustion!). If you have good argument to change, I'd love to hear it! Perma-dom. Yes please - I do have it by an okayish margin right now. (~82% global with Hasten off). Slow resist. I always build for this, but even more important on a Dom so I don't easily lose perma-dom due to some silly slows. Theme. Fire all the way. I love Sleet as much as the next guy, but we have to burn. : ) Where I'd love to improve: It pains me to slot a hold as a hold, and not a proccy abomination these days. If you can think of a way to maintain my totals and proc out Strangler, I'm all ears. More recharge? Currently it's fine, but more pad for perma-dom is never a bad thing. A bit more global accuracy. There are a few powers (well, just Vines and Melt Armor really) that aren't at cap vs +4's. I'm okay with this, but a bit more would be nice. Things I'm unsure about: Too many aoes? Recharge totals are telling me this is still a useful rotation, but do you think it's too much? Honestly I really wanted Enflame when I first opened up this build, given better AT modifiers for Doms, and that it looks really cool. Would you think swapping Rain of Fire for flame might be a good idea? Slotting for Carrion Creepers. Does this need accuracy? The pet powers on CoD show regular 1.0 acc, so not auto-hit. I don't really see other builds incorporating acc here though. Also the procs - I see that slow procs are pretty optimal, but what about others? I crammed ranged aoe in there for the second round, but don't have experience with what is maximum impact here. I'd love to hear your optimal strategies for slotting this unique power. I'm a bit more confident in my slotting for Fly Trap, but if you have other tricks for getting the most out of this bitey thing, fire away! I have ignored Flares, picking up Fire Blast as essentially a replacement. This seems like a pretty good idea on doms, who still have the old extra efficient Fire Blast. Is it dumb in your opinion? If so, why? Flex powers. There are a few powers I chose not because they are amazing, but because they are either useful minimally slotted, or make a decent mule. Open to swapping these if there's a good reason: Spore Burst, Consume, Hover, Spirit Ward. I'm honestly open to flexing away the whole Sorcery pool if there's a good argument. Rune is pretty nice though. End consumption. Since I skipped Fighting and Leadership, I actually run pretty lean! Consume is there to back me up on occasion as well. Based on the active powers, how end hungry would you find this combo, and do you think I have enough support? I've pretty much neglected extra end uniques. The build:

Even without the immob down, Enflame causes a lot less fleeing behavior these days! I'd definitely recommend giving it a shot. Double special super bonus if you have a tanky pet to drop it on, along with tp other. Enflame+singy is a thing of beauty. I can see where more recharge in Forge would be nice for sure, but the ~26 seconds I have is about as much as I would want to manage it. It is certainly a good buff! Given global recharge totals, even enhancing this recharge locally wouldn't be an enormous difference in # of instances I can keep up. /Fire definitely has a bit of a unique mix of powers, though I'm finding more that perhaps it is a certain mix of power types that don't really excite me. I'm going to make a dom build for this alongside and see which I like best. 😄 Mostly I just look at Melt Armor and wonder why it has to be so much worse than Sleet/Freezing rain. Longer cooldown, harder to hit with, no extra control effect. Of course, one could say this about pretty much any resist debuff power that isn't Freezing Rain. It really is a good power on its own merits. I exemp a good amount, and do build my characters with this in mind. That being said, I just haven't ever found the need for anything beyond patch healing on any of my many controllers.

Thank you for the feedback! Accuracy against +3s (relevant with alpha) is capped for strangler. Even against +4s it's at 89%. Indeed this is a fairly selfish build, though the buffs are by no means useless even with minimal slotting. /Fire resist shields don't have super impressive totals to enhance, and just doing controller things brings quite a bit of safety. I could enhance forge for more tohit, but 20 is already quite a bit, and I don't feel worth further enhancement. Global recharge and hasten take care of the rest. Cauterize is a strong heal, but I'm fine leaning on the aura when needed. Healing shouldn't be needed much if controlling is happening. Even on my emps it's a tossup as to whether I take heal other. Others aren't wrong for using it, but I don't have room in my playstyle for ST heals unless they serve other purposes as well. Honestly I agree that I'm not leveraging fire all that much with this build. A lot of the reason for choosing it is thematic. I'm not super impressed with the set's potential overall, though will withhold judgement until I've really slotted it out and put it through it's paces. At a higher level it seems like a set more well suited to Defenders. I really think the debuffs especially would justify a shorter base cooldown. Enflame works really well! I've used it on a few Doms and controllers, and it pumps out reliable damage with an aoe immob in place. It is better on Doms as they get much higher AT modifier for damage, but it's thematic and still does work here. I'm still considering if I might just remake this as a dom in any case. However, I really wanted to mess with the purple ato damage proc in carrion creepers, and Doms don't get one.