Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Haijinx]

11 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Sentinels are force multipliers. 25% Damres Debuff means up to 48 players get +25% damage on a target.

 

Well sure.  I just meant in the broadest general sense.  

[TheAdjustor]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

The irony of your name vs the content of your post ... 

 

 

Only if you have a very narrow view of what can and should be adjusted.

 

This is pretty obviously a troll thread, It has no data except pylon times as done by people other than those calling for a nerf and what's more from what I have seen most of the people calling for a nerf don't even understand or don't wish to come clean about why pylon times are a bad measure.

 

The arguments are just flat out poor and the very title is meant to provoke. So yes there is some need for adjustment

Edited September 14, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It is weird yeah, but that would be a super change to a lot of stalker sets. In general though, Scrappers currently get more AoE power.

Nope, cant give you that one. 

 

Older sets (except electric) The best AOE is removed for a single target attack, when they already have plenty.  

 

Newer sets keep all their AOE

 

Its because the turning assassin's strikes into ST attacks useful in combat. 

 

Realistically all the older sets should be looked at.  A midrange ST attack should be removed and the PBOE added back in.  

 

 

[TheAdjustor]

41 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Scrappers are neat in that they are sort of the "mario" AT. However, this means they have no standout attribute or fun minigame to play, though certain sets absolutely shine on them over other Melees, just how other sets shine on stalkers, brutes or tanks.

 

 

Street Justice, Staff , Dual Blades and Momentum all called. They want to know if you are willing to share what you are smoking.

Edited September 14, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It is weird yeah, but that would be a super change to a lot of stalker sets. In general though, Scrappers currently get more AoE power.

Yeah, but I rolled a psi melee stalker and scrapper on beta and fully setted out, guess which one i picked to go live.

 

And then I rolled a psi melee brute also which is now my main replacing my Rad melee brute as my main.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, TheAdjustor said:

Street Justice, Stave, Dual Blades and Momentum all called. They want to know if you are willing to share what you are smoking.

That is not inherit to Scrappers, other ATs can get those same sets and mechanics. What I mean is stuff like Fury and Assasination, or even Bruising / Opportunity. 

 

Also, this is not a troll thread. I'm of the opinion that TW stands out from the other melee sets to a degree that is not seen among other sets. Reigning it back a bit to still be a top tier set and boosting others to similarly be within the range of performance would be healthy for the game. 

 

Unfortunately it's hard to test anything aside from Pylons as we dont have any good punching bags to test with reliably aside from anecdotes or clear times on specific maps, which bring other variables. Most of the last few pages have been discussing alternate testing methods to get better data on TW's, as well as other set performances. 

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Reigning it back a bit to still be a top tier set and boosting others to similarly be within the range of performance would be healthy for the game. 

I still don't see how it is currently unhealthy for the game to boost the underperforming sets while leaving TW alone.

 

There is nothing in my experience in the game currently that screamed its diseased with imbalance stemming from TW.

 

In fact that never comes up.

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I still don't see how it is currently unhealthy for the game to boost the underperforming sets while leaving TW alone.

 

There is nothing in my experience in the game currently that screamed its diseased with imbalance stemming from TW.

 

In fact that never comes up.

This is actually a good point.

 

In that .. the existence of TW being an outlier changes very little in the game as a whole.  

 

Do MA scrappers have a hard time getting teams?

Do EM brutes have a hard time getting teams? 

Do Claws tankers have a hard time getting teams? 

 

Is there some solo content they can't somehow do? 

 

While to me its interesting how TW got to be where it is, and the relative performance is something that I think has merit discussing .. 

It actually means very little in terms of the game really. 

 

Also I should throw out there, there should be *some* benefit for dealing what is .. by far .. the clunkiest .. melee set in the game.

 

[TheAdjustor]

23 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

That is not inherit to Scrappers, other ATs can get those same sets and mechanics. What I mean is stuff like Fury and Assasination, or even Bruising / Opportunity. 

 

Also, this is not a troll thread. I'm of the opinion that TW stands out from the other melee sets to a degree that is not seen among other sets. Reigning it back a bit to still be a top tier set and boosting others to similarly be within the range of performance would be healthy for the game. 

 

Unfortunately it's hard to test anything aside from Pylons as we dont have any good punching bags to test with reliably aside from anecdotes or clear times on specific maps, which bring other variables. Most of the last few pages have been discussing alternate testing methods to get better data on TW's, as well as other set performances. 

 

1.  Fury, bruising, assasination as minigames ? well if it's a minigame for you why not. You obviously haven't played an IOed out scrapper lately seeing as they all have their own little minigame going with crit procs.

 

2. Glad you have an opinion. Unfortunately opinions are like rear ends, everyone has one. What counts is numbers and you don't have any of your own. You are using pylon thread data and complaining look what these people can do.

 

3. No what you mean is other people who have been doing pylon testing have results that you don't like. There's plenty of ways to test, simplest would be to run a +4x8 farm map and see what your clear time is. Then tell us how your TW/BIO tweaked build does, preferably with a video and export of the build.

 

Oh then again actually doing the tests and comparisons that are needed to properly make a case would be work.

Edited September 14, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

This is actually a good point.

 

In that .. the existence of TW being an outlier changes very little in the game as a whole.  

 

Do MA scrappers have a hard time getting teams?

Do EM brutes have a hard time getting teams? 

Do Claws tankers have a hard time getting teams? 

 

Is there some solo content they can't somehow do? 

 

While to me its interesting how TW got to be where it is, and the relative performance is something that I think has merit discussing .. 

It actually means very little in terms of the game really. 

 

Also I should throw out there, there should be *some* benefit for dealing what is .. by far .. the clunkiest .. melee set in the game.

 

It wasn't enough for me to continue playing mine.

[Haijinx]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

It wasn't enough for me to continue playing mine.

TBH the Energy Melee nerf at least had the whole PVP balance thing included in that mess.

 

Or is TW good at PVP?  seems like it would not be? PVP is a lot less important now then back then.  

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

TBH the Energy Melee nerf at least had the whole PVP balance thing included in that mess.

 

Or is TW good at PVP?  seems like it would not be? PVP is a lot less important now then back then.  

I wouldnt think so, for me even with follow through ST feels weak (I played with other combos on 2nd build).  Thats on a brute though, maybe on a scrapper its different.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Infinitum

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, TheAdjustor said:

 

1.  Fury, bruising, assasination as minigames ? well if it's a minigame for you why not. You obviously haven't played an IOed out scrapper lately seeing as they all have their own little minigame going with crit procs.

I do have a scrapper with both ATO's, but it doesn't fundamentally change how I play him aside from occasionally swapping targets if I proc the +Crit and the enemy I was fighting dies quicker. Scrappers don't have anything extra to aim for when playing such as setting up for a critical hit, controlling an enemy first to deal double damage, or maintaining a fury bar for max output. That's what I refer to with mini-games, things you strive for outside the main game of "fighting enemies" or at least things you do at the same time while fighting enemies. 

 

1 minute ago, TheAdjustor said:

 

2. Glad you have an opinion. Unfortunately opinions are like rear ends, everyone has one. What counts is numbers and you don't have any of your own. You are using pylon thread data and complaining look what these people can do.

The sources I have personally linked earlier are just raw DPS charts based on added recharge, which in today's game is not that hard to achieve either solo through IOs (more investment) or in a team setting with many support sets and incarnate abilities giving rech buffs. They also only focus on the primaries without secondaries added in, so yes it is theoretical but it should not be hard to achieve in-game.

 

1 minute ago, TheAdjustor said:

 

3. No what you mean is other people who have been doing pylon testing have results that you don't like. There's plenty of ways to test, simplest would be to run a +4x8 farm map and see what your clear time is. Then tell us how your TW/BIO tweaked build does, preferably with a video and export of the build.

Its not just Pylon threads, its personal experience with the set and how playing it sours other melee sets when I want to try them out. Even if/when they get buffs, TW staying the same has a ton of appeal with boosted melee range/AoE Size, plentiful secondary effects, and huge damage over other sets to where it still has edges over them. Part of this is just updated set design, where older sets just have flaws that are baked into them that would require substantial reworks to be brought up to par, but if they were to go up to TW's level it will either A) be ridiculous in it's own right or B) ironically, cause TW to suffer as it has drawbacks that X set does not have and thus needs buffs (which continues the cycle).

 

Given that "The game is balanced on SO's" is tossed around so much, I am trying to put together a way that the primaries can be compared at that level with no / minimal IO (something like a performance shifter or a single LOTG in combat jumping) usage, and in different scenarios beyond a controlled punching bag or farm environment such as under the effects of common ally buffs, quantifying secondary effects (how long an enemy is likely to be knocked down, or w/e), and so on.

 

Hopefully this can shed light on sets that need love as well, which I agree is a better thing to focus on. But I just cannot help that unless we have a solid benchmark that TW is part of and not above, it will always be part of the convo / a point of contention.

 

[Infinitum]

20 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

1. Its not just Pylon threads, its personal experience with the set and how playing it sours other melee sets when I want to try them out. Even if/when they get buffs, TW staying the same has a ton of appeal with boosted melee range/AoE Size, plentiful secondary effects, and huge damage over other sets to where it still has edges over them.

2. Part of this is just updated set design, where older sets just have flaws that are baked into them that would require substantial reworks to be brought up to par,

 

3.but if they were to go up to TW's level it will either A) be ridiculous in it's own right or B) ironically, cause TW to suffer as it has drawbacks that X set does not have and thus needs buffs (which continues the cycle).

1. Personal experience shouldn't matter, at least that's what I've been told in here a thousand times now.  Just because it sours other sets for you doesn't mean it is for other people nor is it right to affect other people and their play based on personal preference.  Again TW is not a systemic infection that has imbalanced the game making it unplayable.

 

2. It speaks for itself and I agree, that doesn't indict TW though.

 

3. There is no way to quantify or prove this - either point.  However buffing the sets would make them better, making TW worse 100% will assuredly not make them better.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Infinitum

[TheAdjustor]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I do have a scrapper with both ATO's, but it doesn't fundamentally change how I play him aside from occasionally swapping targets if I proc the +Crit and the enemy I was fighting dies quicker. Scrappers don't have anything extra to aim for when playing such as setting up for a critical hit, controlling an enemy first to deal double damage, or maintaining a fury bar for max output. That's what I refer to with mini-games, things you strive for outside the main game of "fighting enemies" or at least things you do at the same time while fighting enemies. 

Dude, your in a hole stop digging. You think controllers don't open with controls brutes don't hit things or stalkers don't open out of hide ? These aren't any more or less of a minigame than optimizing a scrapper's rotation and watching the bar for picking attacks.

Quote

The sources I have personally linked earlier are just raw DPS charts based on added recharge, which in today's game is not that hard to achieve either solo through IOs (more investment) or in a team setting with many support sets and incarnate abilities giving rech buffs. They also only focus on the primaries without secondaries added in, so yes it is theoretical but it should not be hard to achieve in-game.

Sigh, The attacks are slow they root you in place, the set is an end hog, raw DPS doesn't cover the prologue of the story let alone the whole story. The fact that you say things like the above is a good argument for getting rid of the pylon thread as too many people read it but don't properly understand and get butt hurt from it.  Best example "added recharge, which in today's game is not that hard to achieve".  No it's not hard you just have to trade other things to get it, which goes back to the why raw DPS and the pylon thread are bad.

 

Quote

Its not just Pylon threads, its personal experience with the set and how playing it sours other melee sets when I want to try them out

Tried them out with those Raw DPS charts ehh ? It's pretty obvious you haven't done any objective testing of this.  My main is Claws/EA Brute, tell me how TW/BIO has soured my abilitiy to solo against Reichsman and his entire room of never ending council spawn. Oh but that would be a tradeoff kind of like trade offs made to get TW enough recharge to work properly.

 

Either way I have no doubt you will neither change your mind nor present actual data of how sets compare on actual mission completion, leveling rate or even clearing defeat alls. Until you do there is no substance to your position except "TW MAKES ME FEEL BAD".

[Galaxy Brain]

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

1. Personal experience shouldn't matter, at least that's what I've been told in here a thousand times now.

 

2. It speaks for itself and I agree, that doesn't indict TW though.

 

3. There is no way to quantify or prove this - either point.  However buffing the sets would make them better, making TW worse 100% will not assuredly make them better.

1) That is fair. It is sort of double edged as personal experience is good for you know... actually have experience with whatever subject matter, but at the same time it is subjective and hard to quantify. Your experience so far has been that TW is clunky and not to your tastes, so you find it to be underwhelming while I find it to be incredibly powerful to where it soured other sets going back to them. The truth is probably in the middle.

 

2) It doesn't indict TW by itself, but currently it does as TW does have +Damage to it that goes outside of the normal design of powers historically, on top of modern design perks via non-direct damage mechanics. Until other sets catch up, it will have these facets over them.

 

3) Its sorta hyperbole, but say we equalized DPS across all melee sets. Suddenly, TW feels a bit disadvantaged since it has endurance and learning curve issues compared to other sets that deal the same damage over an encounter. TW needs to deal more damage than average given it's mechanic, and it's whole theme of bonking people with a railroad sign. Its just that currently, it seems a smidge overtuned to where it should have been in relation to other sets. The attacks are already coded the same as other heavy-hitter attacks in other sets so they deal great base damage, and ideally you will deal that quickly about 80% of the time in combat. Unlike the same heavy hitter attacks in other sets though, TW gets a bit extra damage per power than if it were another set if that makes sense.

 

 

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, TheAdjustor said:

Dude, your in a hole stop digging. You think controllers don't open with controls brutes don't hit things or stalkers don't open out of hide ? These aren't any more or less of a minigame than optimizing a scrapper's rotation and watching the bar for picking attacks.

Sigh, The attacks are slow they root you in place, the set is an end hog, raw DPS doesn't cover the prologue of the story let alone the whole story. The fact that you say things like the above is a good argument for getting rid of the pylon thread as too many people read it but don't properly understand and get butt hurt from it.  Best example "added recharge, which in today's game is not that hard to achieve".  No it's not hard you just have to trade other things to get it, which goes back to the why raw DPS and the pylon thread are bad.

 

Tried them out with those Raw DPS charts ehh ? It's pretty obvious you haven't done any objective testing of this.  My main is Claws/EA Brute, tell me how TW/BIO has soured my abilitiy to solo against Reichsman and his entire room of never ending council spawn. Oh but that would be a tradeoff kind of like trade offs made to get TW enough recharge to work properly.

 

Either way I have no doubt you will neither change your mind nor present actual data of how sets compare on actual mission completion, leveling rate or even clearing defeat alls. Until you do there is no substance to your position except "TW MAKES ME FEEL BAD".

1) I suggest modifying your tone. It's not conducive to discussion and it's liable to get you moderated.

 

2) The "Scrapper Minigame" inherent to the class is 'Hit something that will die if you hit it. Hit it again. Hit it more. Maybe watch it's HP just in case your next attack might crit, but probably don't worry about it."

 

Controllers have to make the choice of stacking controls on the same handful of targets for double damage or spreading their controls out to try and contain more targets. Corruptors have to decide whether to keep flinging AoE or pick a single target and burn him down. Stalkers have to get into position for AS and then monitor their next AS Opportunity. Brutes have to walk the line between getting all the aggro and possibly dying for more DPS or letting the tanker have some of it and risking the loss. Dominators used to have to choose their Domination Windows for maximum impact and now just strive for Permadom and juggle keybinds.

 

Scrappers? Not a ton of minigame specific to them. ATOs add in a sort of one where you try to get up a crit-frenzy to drop on the boss.

 

3) If you'd actually read the thread you'd have seen some important numbers posted based on the damage metrics for TWs slow-version still being between 10% and 44% overpowered... BEFORE Momentum Kicks in and increases the attack speed of attacks by 35-60% (Depending on the power) which, by all damage metrics, -increases- the degree to which their damage scale is too high.

 

 

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

1) That is fair. It is sort of double edged as personal experience is good for you know... actually have experience with whatever subject matter, but at the same time it is subjective and hard to quantify. Your experience so far has been that TW is clunky and not to your tastes, so you find it to be underwhelming while I find it to be incredibly powerful to where it soured other sets going back to them. The truth is probably in the middle.

 

2) It doesn't indict TW by itself, but currently it does as TW does have +Damage to it that goes outside of the normal design of powers historically, on top of modern design perks via non-direct damage mechanics. Until other sets catch up, it will have these facets over them.

 

3) Its sorta hyperbole, but say we equalized DPS across all melee sets. Suddenly, TW feels a bit disadvantaged since it has endurance and learning curve issues compared to other sets that deal the same damage over an encounter. TW needs to deal more damage than average given it's mechanic, and it's whole theme of bonking people with a railroad sign. Its just that currently, it seems a smidge overtuned to where it should have been in relation to other sets. The attacks are already coded the same as other heavy-hitter attacks in other sets so they deal great base damage, and ideally you will deal that quickly about 80% of the time in combat. Unlike the same heavy hitter attacks in other sets though, TW gets a bit extra damage per power than if it were another set if that makes sense.

 

 

Agree with 1.

 

Number 2 is more reason to first buff the other sets still.

 

Number 3 there is still no way to prove what bufffing the other sets will do to TW, but im willing to wager that people with TW currently will still be happy, and people who lile the underperforming sets will be happy also.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

1) I suggest modifying your tone. It's not conducive to discussion and it's liable to get you moderated.

Says you?  lol.  Whew lightning may strike any minute you better get inside.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

Dude, your in a hole stop digging. You think controllers don't open with controls brutes don't hit things or stalkers don't open out of hide ? These aren't any more or less of a minigame than optimizing a scrapper's rotation and watching the bar for picking attacks.

This is really just a battle of semantics here. Optimizing attack chains is what *everyone* does, not just Scrappers. What I was trying to point out is that Scrappers don't have anything truly unique about them like a Fury Bar, Domination, the ability to set up guaranteed crits and so on that fundamentally change how you would approach an encounter based on your AT choice. Individual power sets / powers can change that, but those are shared among at least 3 other AT's with Scrappers too.

 

2 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

Sigh, The attacks are slow they root you in place, the set is an end hog, raw DPS doesn't cover the prologue of the story let alone the whole story. The fact that you say things like the above is a good argument for getting rid of the pylon thread as too many people read it but don't properly understand and get butt hurt from it.  Best example "added recharge, which in today's game is not that hard to achieve".  No it's not hard you just have to trade other things to get it, which goes back to the why raw DPS and the pylon thread are bad.

TW has the 1st swing of a battle start slow, but the next 4 are very fast and generally cut the time it takes to finish an encounter down substantially. I agree, it blows if your momentum starter misses but more often than not it doesn't. Similar to how it sucks when Follow Up misses on claws and you don't get a damage boost for a whole rotation, at least with TW you can use any other attack to re-attempt.

 

I guess this opens up the question of what is traded for what lvl of Recharge, and in what scenarios. Hasten, a secondary that perhaps give +Rech (handful of these exist), very minor IO slotting for like +10-15% rech, or even being on the same team as somebody with AM or /Time, etc.

 

TW is a very extreme set by design, and the more I am talking about it in this thread the more I think it is a catalyst. Most sets when you add buffs just get proportionally better. TW on the other hand gets exponentially better as the weaknesses are removed or the momentum mechanic is enhanced further.

 

2 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

 

Tried them out with those Raw DPS charts ehh ? It's pretty obvious you haven't done any objective testing of this.  My main is Claws/EA Brute, tell me how TW/BIO has soured my abilitiy to solo against Reichsman and his entire room of never ending council spawn. Oh but that would be a tradeoff kind of like trade offs made to get TW enough recharge to work properly.

Claws/EA is fun as hell, my Scrapper is that too! 😄

 

I've also had a lvl 50 TW/Fire on live, a lvl 50 tw/wp and a lvl 22 tw/rad now on HC. Claws is a great set that does different things than TW does, its almost like the opposite of it really. The problem for me personally is going to sets that are similar to TW such as War Mace, Broad Sword, Super Strength, etc where you are wielding a weapon or using your might to fight enemies. The latter examples just don't offer the same results even though they can be paired with /shield, and other "mighty" sets don't offer the same utility or big sweeping hits. Sets like Savage or Staff are both new, and offer vastly different secondary effects than TW to make them stand out, but there are a slew of others that offer some of the same effects and theme that are hit a bit harder thematically and mechanically.

 

2 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

 

Either way I have no doubt you will neither change your mind nor present actual data of how sets compare on actual mission completion, leveling rate or even clearing defeat alls. Until you do there is no substance to your position except "TW MAKES ME FEEL BAD".

The only data we have now is how TW is incredibly popular based on the AT datamines, and how it tops the charts of several damage threads. I would love to gather data on it and the other melee sets outside of such niches to get a feel for what the "intended" performance should be, and then we can even use that as a metric to help the other sets as well.

 

[TheAdjustor]

8 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

1) I suggest modifying your tone. It's not conducive to discussion and it's liable to get you moderated.

 

Nerf Herding and would be moderators, both were verboten on the live forums with good reason, probably some of the better decisions made by the people running them.

 

Quote

Controllers have to make the choice of stacking controls on the same handful of targets for double damage or spreading their controls out to try and contain more targets.
 

That isn't a choice nor is it a minigame,

Quote

Corruptors have to decide whether to keep flinging AoE or pick a single target and burn him down.

And just how is that different from any other AT that has AOE damage ?

 

You're reaching and trying to white knight, and it's rather obvious.

 

Quote

3) If you'd actually read the thread you'd have seen some important numbers posted based on the damage metrics for TWs slow-version still being between 10% and 44% overpowered... BEFORE Momentum Kicks in and increases the attack speed of attacks by 35-60% (Depending on the power) which, by all damage metrics, -increases- the degree to which their damage scale is too high.

 

Sorry I don't have the oracular ability or arrogance to think I can discern the entirety of a set without playing it.   I would recommend going to test rolling a TW/BIO and then going at a +4x8 map and reporting your results (note that would be your results not other people's) and then tell us just how OP it is. But you seem a little too invested to do that.

[TheAdjustor]

19 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I've also had a lvl 50 TW/Fire on live, a lvl 50 tw/wp and a lvl 22 tw/rad now on HC. Claws is a great set that does different things than TW does, its almost like the opposite of it really. The problem for me personally is going to sets that are similar to TW such as War Mace, Broad Sword, Super Strength, etc where you are wielding a weapon or using your might to fight enemies. The latter examples just don't offer the same results even though they can be paired with /shield, and other "mighty" sets don't offer the same utility or big sweeping hits. Sets like Savage or Staff are both new, and offer vastly different secondary effects than TW to make them stand out, but there are a slew of others that offer some of the same effects and theme that are hit a bit harder thematically and mechanically.

 

 

 

War Mace, has the easiest attack chain in the game and is currently number 2 for ST damage, Same holds for broadsword, Super Strength has a near permanent +to hit bonus and some of the best AOE and control in the game.  Seems like they all should be nerfed. Oh and claws it's just too fast.

[Galaxy Brain]

What is WM under?

 

Anyways, circling way back I feel Steampunkette had a good idea on page 1 where a side-grade would be nice. Something that, while it curtails TW's high end performance, makes it a bit easier to use or better on the low end.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[TheAdjustor]

5 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

What is WM under?

Probably /Storm corruptors oh I forgot to include Masterminds and Corruptors in this discussion, I think that bumps WM down to number 5 and takes melee damage completely out of the equation. Perhaps they all should be nerfed.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

Probably /Storm corruptors oh I forgot to include Masterminds and Corruptors in this discussion, I think that bumps WM down to number 5 and takes melee damage completely out of the equation. Perhaps they all should be nerfed.

I mean yeah, lets just go full Syndrome. But it does seem your comment was directed at melee sets, and even if WM by itself is #5 out of *everything* that is still impressive.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Galaxy Brain