Help Needed: Which melee AT *really* is the 'strongest'?

[Ljhalfbreed]

7 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Stalkers will obviously do better single target burst damage whereas Scrappers in general are going to work better over time.

That's kind of what I'm trying to get information on to 'prove', because it's not exactly cut and dry after the crit changes/etc. 

 

Just running around with a much higher base crit chance, and the possibility of insta-recharging buildup? That doesn't sound like spike or burst, that sounds like sustain... unless we are saying 'well the stalker will die pretty quick so they will never get to do as much damage as a scrapper. 

[ShardWarrior]

Scrappers can die pretty quickly too. 😉 

 

 

[EmmySky]

Lets break it down for a moment on stalkers and scrappers.  Pit one of each solo against a low level EB like Chernybog (sp?) or the like because you specifically mentioned NOT maxed out but along the leveling lines.  A stalker will sneak up and do massive damage immediately then have to try to stay alive to flail on him til he is dead.  A scrapper isn't going to do the massive up front damage but his survivability for the rest of the fight is MUCH greater.  If you throw a brute in there as well then with fury they will fair at least as well as the scrapper.  Now your question regarding who does the most ST damage would have to assume the character is up and fighting in order to deal said damage and not lying on the floor having a bit of a nap.  Tankers dont nap.  They are the energizer bunny of this quartet and they have to be because low DPS will take them a while to beat the EB down.  

 

I think this is why people are giving you sketchy non answers....and talking about apples and oranges.  You can't just straight out compare them because....dirt nap stalker is not putting out the damage you would expect from an AT known  for having high DPS.  

[Ljhalfbreed]

5 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Your answer lays in the Pylon thread over the scrapper forums. Despite being in the scrapper forums all ATs have been posting their times there. Since you're not adding enough constraints, like sustain and burst DPS, length of the fight (a 15 second fight will not  favor TW, and if we both start from range and need to approach and fight a Blaster will have shot a mob three times by the time a meleer has bounced to melee range) then that thread has your answers. Several scrappers, brutes and stalkers have posted their times so just have a gander.

 

Street Justice stalker and Titan Weapon scrapper are up there, and we're talking *up* there with one minute times and no gimmicks like -regen.

Okay... didn't realize that was for non-scrapper stuff. I'll probably get my answer there. Thanks so much.

 

A pylon takedown would be just fine for most purposes. Again, i'm not looking for extremely specific loadouts or power picks. I'm just trying to find out 'which AT is supposed to be the ST king'. Gut instinct says that generally that would be Stalkers followed by scrappers. I'm just looking to 'prove' if that statement is true or false, again, speaking in generic terms. 

[Ananke]

20 hours ago, biostem said:

Let's stick to normal play, which probably 99+% of players experience.

Then I feel like minmaxing becomes a bit irrelevant there. If a standard, not great player is playing something supposed-to-be best in slot but they're mediocre then they won't be churning the same DPS because they aren't rotating their abilities like a really good player would be.

[Trademarked Name]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: CoX is a game of rock/paper/scissors/grenade/spear/toaster/stufffed-animal/rocket-launcher/jar of pickles/sharknado....ad infinitum.

 

[Ljhalfbreed]

34 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

Lets break it down for a moment on stalkers and scrappers.  Pit one of each solo against a low level EB like Chernybog (sp?) or the like because you specifically mentioned NOT maxed out but along the leveling lines.  A stalker will sneak up and do massive damage immediately then have to try to stay alive to flail on him til he is dead.  A scrapper isn't going to do the massive up front damage but his survivability for the rest of the fight is MUCH greater.  If you throw a brute in there as well then with fury they will fair at least as well as the scrapper.  Now your question regarding who does the most ST damage would have to assume the character is up and fighting in order to deal said damage and not lying on the floor having a bit of a nap.  Tankers dont nap.  They are the energizer bunny of this quartet and they have to be because low DPS will take them a while to beat the EB down.  

 

I think this is why people are giving you sketchy non answers....and talking about apples and oranges.  You can't just straight out compare them because....dirt nap stalker is not putting out the damage you would expect from an AT known  for having high DPS.  

I understand where you're coming from, but i was not aware that the scrapper pylon thread had folks posting non-scrapper AT times. 

 

I think it stands to reason that the thread would probably give me the answers I need. It has a single target with limited death-dealing powers, doesn't move so folks can't argue ranges, can be solo'd, and so on. The next step would be asking folks if they'd want to repeat their times while on a non-involved team (to maximize the stalker crit chances) and see how different the times are.

[Ljhalfbreed]

33 minutes ago, Ananke said:

Then I feel like minmaxing becomes a bit irrelevant there. If a standard, not great player is playing something supposed-to-be best in slot but they're mediocre then they won't be churning the same DPS because they aren't rotating their abilities like a really good player would be.

Yep, my bad. It was an offhanded comment to try and limit the amount of folks that would (rightly or wrongly) then argue about ede-case loadouts, hyperspecific builds, and the like.  I would like to think that there is some math out there describing basic expectations, but that doesn't seem to be the case, which is a shame.

 

 

On the other hand, I was told that the scrapper pylon thread has folks posting non-scrapper AT times. I think that would be a relevant starting point to understand how to answer the question better. 

[Ananke]

11 minutes ago, Ljhalfbreed said:

Yep, my bad. It was an offhanded comment to try and limit the amount of folks that would (rightly or wrongly) then argue about ede-case loadouts, hyperspecific builds, and the like.  I would like to think that there is some math out there describing basic expectations, but that doesn't seem to be the case, which is a shame.

 

 

On the other hand, I was told that the scrapper pylon thread has folks posting non-scrapper AT times. I think that would be a relevant starting point to understand how to answer the question better. 

Unfortunately, simming the way people do it on WoW isn't/wasn't available for City of Heroes so stoptimers are the best we've got to compare with, other than what Mids says (and I don't think it factors in PPM and proc chance). I don't think that you're going to get anything more reliable than that because no one's made such a tool.

 

Were we capable of simming it, you'd get exact numbers and it'd probably spit out optimal enhancements too. But then, it'd be optimal IOing purely for damage because sims can be a bit retarded regarding defense/damage mitigation/healing.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Ananke

[SuperPlyx]

Reading through this thread I wonder if their is any concern about the 4 melee ATs becoming to homogeneous? I mean a nerf here,a boost there and soon a AT loses it's distinctiveness.

 

The changes to Stalkers are case in point... I see in-game now are comments about how it's a more team friendly AT now because it does AoEs, that's not what I think of as the stalkers skill set.

[Ananke]

1 hour ago, SuperPlyx said:

that's not what I think of as the stalkers skill set.

 

Stalkers are known by their crit, if anything. Nothing to do with single target or AOE base. You can't identify everything by AT because powerset is actually what dictates playstyle and utility.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Ananke

[AcronymX]

i wonder what kind of information about powersets is available.

if there's enough information available then probably a sim can be developed to figure out what sets and archetypes perform best in various situations

[DR_Mechano]

33 minutes ago, AcronymX said:

i wonder what kind of information about powersets is available.

if there's enough information available then probably a sim can be developed to figure out what sets and archetypes perform best in various situations

For single target DPS numbers, you want to the Pylon damage thread. That is the standard metric for damage at the very high end due to requiring both high damage AND decent survival.

 

As for ATs, Stalkers are, by and large (ignoring the outlier that is elec/shield) single target DPS monsters (most will usually have an AoE attack removed and replaced with Assassin's Strike). With the right build, especially using the two ATO uniques. However single target DPS is good and all but you have to remember that unlike in WoW where dungeons and raids boil down to most a large, high health, single target with different phases, you also need people to mass clear the regular mobs. For those saying that a TW/Bio scrapper out does a stalker at everything, a Street Justice stalker is the highest single target DPS IIRC, outdoing TW/Bio scrapper thanks to those ATO uniques allowing it to burst consistently and near constantly along with the ability to control its crits via the 'three non-AS attacks = AS autocrit method.

 

In the case of mass AoE something like an elec/shield scrapper (since IIRC both Shield Charge and Lightning rod on stalkers or scrappers can't crit so an elec/shield scrapper would have more AoE available) would have decent survivability and rock high AoE damage ( would say it actually outpreforms TW in that regard but loses to it in single target), able to nuke groups down also things like fire/fire blasters. However these things are pretty hard to test because mobs have different resistances, different typed attacks. What might work well against, say council, won't work as well against Carnival of Shadows.

 

Essentially there are just too many true variables to really get a 'best' on AoE damage in my humble opinion.

Edited September 13, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[oxmox]

Lots of dancing around the question.

 

As a rule of thumb you are correct. Stalker>scrapper>brute>tank for ST DPS. Both burst and sustained.

 

Tank damage is so much lower than the other 3 it's hardly worth comparing.

 

Stalkers have nearly the same base damage as scrappers, but get Assassin's strike (usually in place of an AoE attack) and more/reliable crits.

 

Scrappers deal comparable but slightly lower dps on average. The notable exception being Titan Weapons, which will probably beat most stalkers in pure dmg.

 

Brutes can do similar or even more damage with high fury, but vs a single target is not the best environment for that.

[Luminara]

9 hours ago, AcronymX said:

i wonder what kind of information about powersets is available.

Every power in the game has base stats, which are subsequently modified by AT.  The base stats are available.  The modifiers are, as well.  Excluding whatever has been added or altered in this restarted version, almost everything about the mechanics of the game, all of the tables and equations we were using right up to shutdown, is known and should still be available.  All of it.

 

Hell, I have most of that data on a 3.5" HDD, but since I don't have the power to run a desktop computer now (or have a desktop computer, for that matter), and don't have a laptop (or an external SATA adapter), I can't access it.

 

Try the Wayback Machine.  If I recall, it was Iakona who posted the comprehensive list of tables and base stats I used to create the power value information in my guides.  That's probably a good place to start.  Once you have that, you really don't need a "sim", the calculator app on your phone or computer will be the only tool necessary to compile the comparison data you want.