Operative AT - I repackaged the old Striker with a new identity!

[Replacement]

@Zepp's very nice Summary, with a minor edit by me to the powersets for the sake of focus:

Operative (19.09.24.06.34.01)

Assault/Manipulation

Preparation: Low threat level, stealth (weak), and a bar that constantly builds but is reduced by attacks - grants improved secondary effects

Operatives are strategic agents that have many skills that they must strategically employ to be effective. They use a Manipulation secondary that has been bolstered by a modicum of armor and control for survival.

There are suggestions for the modified manipulation secondary (Intrigue) as well.

 

Updated Description

I've left my OP mostly in-tact below the big dividing line for context.

 

Intent: Reusing two interesting sets (Assault and Manipulation) in a focused way.  Just because they have lots of different tools doesn't mean they should be viewed as a bland jack-of-all-trades.  Instead, this AT takes all those tricks and puts them toward a thematic task, at home in a Spy Thriller.

 

Operative - The (wo)man with the plan.  The operative always has a goal and always watches the exits.  They are a mixed-range combatant and fight opportunistically with a combination of surprise and control to make up for their inherent flimsiness.

Example character fictions that describe Operatives: Spies, Mafia sweepers (The Duke), Counterterrorist agents, Mixed-range assassins like Deadshot or Bullseye.

 

Inherent - Preparation: A bar that grows continually and is reduced by attacking, sort of like a "reverse fury."  The bullet points are listed in order of importance.  The further down you go, the more "we would see how testing works out"

• Provides a scaling +Stealth effect.
• Always regenerating so it stays useful during prolonged engagement.
• I imagine this bar gaining and dropping very quickly.
• Also provides a Power Boost effect, focusing particularly on buffing the Operative's own Sustain abilities they gain access to through Manipulation.  Secondarily, on their meager armor powers.

 

This is an obvious tuning point for the AT.  It's possible to not only tweak the rates of growth and expense, but also add/remove the benefits provided, as testing would no doubt reveal issues with the class.

 

Note: Not listed as part of the inherent, every Manipulation set will have a power that functions as an AoE Placate/Distract.  This power will also function as a Break Free (Similar to Blaster>Martial Combat>Inner Will) and likely tied to the Inherent bar in some way.  My current model is that it would empty your Preparation bar and gain a duration increase based on its size.  This would mean remaining Stunned for a few seconds to let your bar fill a bit more may well be better than immediately popping it and getting back in the action.

 

Primary - Assault:  Very few changes needed.  Some sets have Build Up which should be replaced (likely with Power Build Up, but Aim may be more important for some/all).  If you look at a particular Assault set and find I am wrong, the answer is "That would not be a a launch set."

 

Secondary - Manipulation: Some adjustments are necessary, and quite fantastically, they create the exact opportunity we need to tie the whole concept together.  On average, 2 powers need removed from a Manipulation set in order to play nice with Assault.  This is the assumption this post makes.  Sets that require a 3rd removal tend to have easy replacement powers, and sets that require more would not be launch sets.  Here's the breakdown of how it would look:

• T1 is typically a Smoke Bomb/Misdirection type power.  Aoe Placate/Distract + Break Free, tied to Inherent (see Inherent Note).
  • Default is an AoE Placate, but some sets could come with a taunting temporary pet instead, or other interesting tricks.  The core important part is getting people to stop attacking you.  
  • Remember: This AT isn't interested in being a Stalker.  It has no Surprise Crit mechanics and uses stealth and placates to survive; not to increase DPS!
• T2 is an AoE Immobilize or similar.  In general, find the standard T1 Manipulation power, then replace it with the Control T3 power most similar.
  • This class relies a lot on active defense, and this is mostly a thematic way to set the tone of their sabotaging playstyle.  It really shouldn't add much power after level 20 or so.
  • Tuning points include target caps and damage.
• T3/T4 (where the 2nd overlapping melee attack normally resides) becomes an armor ability.  
  • Based off of known armor toggle (e.g. Electricity Manipulation would likely get something based on Charged Armor), which sets the primary defensive benefits (Charged Armor gives Resistance to Smashing, Lethal, and Energy damage)
  • If the power budget allows, I think this ability should also have a minor amount of related armor for "everything else."  For example, if the Operative version of Charged Armor provides 19.25% S/L/E resistance (Blaster numbers used for this example btw), also include 5-11% resist to all other damage.  Energy Manipulation would likely gain a version of Kinetic Shield mostly skewed towards S/L Defense, with a minor amount of +defense to all other damage types (not positional).
  • To shake things up, some sets could swap the position of this power with the T1 "stop hitting me" power.  This would be a good fit for sets found terrible without the armor power (so putting it at T1 forces the selection).
• The rest of Manipulation is unchanged when possible.  When a change is needed, it should edge towards control first, unless it's in danger of rivaling an actual Control set.
  • This includes the name, if possible.  The name of the Secondary should still be Manipulation to keep player understanding and expectations (this isn't that much changed when you compare to how distorted Stalker primary and secondaries are relative to their melee cousins).  Obviously, this goes out the window if it's causing confusion.  In which case, this thread provides some other good names such as Intrigue or Projection.
  • This thread has several laid out examples of alternative ways to flesh out this secondary.  Much of it is included in or inspired this version.  I am, of course, biased towards my own vision so I cannot clearly recommend one way or another. Only that my preference would be to view this proposal as I've laid it out first and use their fantastic write-ups to see all the other ways this could run if my vision isn't clicking.

 

Updated Example Manipulation set:

 

Ice Manipulation (Italics indicate changed powers, underline indicates brand new)

 

Tier	Power	Notes
1	Ice Clone	Create inanimate taunt pet, break free
2	Frostbite	Control T3 AoE Immobilize
3	Frozen Armor	Tuning point: add minor +def to other attacks
4	Frigid Protection
5	Build Up
6	Ice Patch
7	Shiver
8	Freezing Touch
9	Frozen Aura

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Darkness Manipulation

 

Tier	Power	Notes
1	Shade-away!	<Insert Good Name Here> - Aoe Placate
2	Living Shadows	Control T3 - Cone Immobilize
3	Death Shroud
4	Dark Embrace	Moderate S/L resist, Lesser N/T, ?Minor EFCP?
5	Shadow Maul	Yep! Extra melee attacks are fine!
6	Soul Drain
7	Touch of the Beyond
8	Dark Consumption
9	Dark Pit	Midnight Grasp removed for overlap; other powers pushed down to make way for an earlier armor toggle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

---

OLD POST IN HERE

---

Spoiler

 

In which I write up an AT I think would be fun to play, because I'm still too dumb to dive into the code myself and get busy!

--

It occurs to me that stealthy types never show up in fiction, gank the bad/good guy, and are never heard from again.  What they really tend to do is disrupt the best-laid plans.  They may remove a key player, but their focus is often on what happens next.

 

So, this AT arose out of the combination of two thoughts:

 

#1: Stalkers should've been /Manipulation instead of /Armor.  The amount their armor sets have been customized to fit just them?  /Manipulation could've underwent just as much change - on average, a loss of about two powers per set would be required to ensure no overlap with primaries, which handily makes room for Hide and either a dedicated defensive option or something like a placate.

Obviously this boat has sailed.

#2: Strikers as proposed don't know their purpose.  I, personally, find Assaults and Manipulations as the two most interesting sets in the game, and they have very little overlap.  They can be tossed together to make an AT, but no one is quite sure what fiction that fills.  It reads like it would just bridge the gap between Blasters and Dominators on the Control:Damage spectrum.  That works technically... but it really isn't good (interesting) enough. 

 

No one's really sure what they want out of a Striker, and that has lead to folks in previous conversations having to bastardize it so much that it's no longer accomplishing its set-upon goals: recombining existing powers in neat and novel ways.  They end up with kludge passives that cater to the complete lack of identity, and changing out half the powers with armor powers.  I'm not a fan!

 

The goal is to create a new identity without new set categories.  I present the tentatively-named Agent Operative (notes on other names towards the bottom), focused on slipping in and out of enemy lines, delivering blows that disrupt enemy plans.

 

Primary: Assault (no changes at a systemic level)

Secondary: Manipulation with some tweaks.  As mentioned above, the same powers you already need to remove to avoid power overlap free up the sets to gain Hide Placate and one other power .  I suggest mez protection or a generic defense.

 

What does this give us? A somewhat fragile DPS naturally reliant on positioning and detection for survival -- without relying on weird passive-derived gimmicks [Gimmicks now included]!  The power sets already provide the basis of how this plays out.  It doesn't have Assassin's Strike and it doesn't need it -- that is part of Stalker's identity and there is room for two stealth ATs.  Plus, they'll typically get a Snipe about 10 levels before a Stalker will.

 

Let's take a look at a sample Manipulation change.  You will see one final change I would make to Manipulation which I think is worth the cost of change.

 

Ice Manipulation (Italics indicate changed powers)

Tier	Power
1	Hide
2	Frostbite (control set tier 3)
3	Unspecified defensive power
4	Frigid Protection
5	Build Up
6	Ice Patch
7	Shiver
8	Freezing Touch
9	Frozen Aura

 

So about that tier 2.  Yeah, it's yet another departure, making my whole original stance ("I don't want to see it half-bred with armor powers") a little flimsy, but I feel it's worth the cost, and here's why: this would create an AT that is actually just fine with not packing mobs in dense.  They have the option of group immobilizing and then dismantling them bit-by-bit.  I'm a fan of an AT that can help encourage people to ignore meta, personally. 

So you can imagine how this mostly plays out for other sets -- find the 2 early melee attacks, swap one for Hide and put it at T1, swap the other for... who knows what.  Find the ST immobilize most sets start with, find the Controller aoe equivalent.  That should get you far.

 

/Psionics is still a lost cause, though.  Don't even look at that set.

 

Let me know what you think of the idea.  I realize it's super-unlikely but I've been thinking about this for about 7 weeks, now.  I figured it'd be fun to type it up and see if anyone thinks it would be interesting and different.

 

Notes section

 

Names - Obviously nothing's perfect.  I had considered Infiltrator.  That creates a good parallel to the bad guys of the same name, that put big crosshairs over your head.  It's still good, but it certainly oversells the nondetection angle, when I really was gunning for a class that plays more like a blapper.  I had also considered Saboteur but that really makes big implications about their ability to control a group.  Also, if we ever have a poll where Homecoming says "We hate Corruptor, as a name.  Let's choose a new one."  I'll be voting for Saboteur. 

 

Hide itself - For simplicity, I put Hide in my chart and text.  But honestly, I would love a Click that's, say, 40 second stealth, 40 second recharge (does not stack with self).  Probably with a built-in aoe placate.  It makes for more active gameplay, and it lets me see my character more often.  Folks can opt to ctrl-click it to have it function like a toggle.  Pie in the sky?  I would do the same to Stalker and the Concealment pool.  Who the hell decided a game famous for character customization should have all invisible effects be toggles?

 

Unspecified defensive power - Note they'll already be getting a Sustain power, just like Blasters.  While a generic baseline armor toggle would work, there's a lot of room here for placate (unless it's baked into a Hide Click, see above), a click defense like a better Shadow Meld (I like the idea of a clicked defense buff but 3 second activation for only 15 seconds up-time?  ew!), or simply some mez protection.  That's the one thing that will shut them down faster than a blaster.

 

Passive - Yep!  No passive (yet)!  I truly believe this proposed AT stands interesting enough on its own that its passive should be derived from necessity (plugging mechanical holes found via testing) instead of some schtick just to act cute.  In particular, it needs to be able to close to melee range (even if briefly) vs AVs and GMs, and I have a feeling it'll need some Passive love to get there. 

 

If you propose a series of "stance toggles" as the passive, I will furrow my brow at you momentarily and then get over it.  But I would likely not seriously consider it.

 

 

Cheers

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Replacement

[Steampunkette]

So the secondary is 'Manipulation without the Melee/AoE attacks, just replace them with some armors'?

 

Sounds a lot like my previously proposed hybrid Armor/Control pairing... Which is a good solid basis for any Assault-Primary class. By using Passive and Active Mitigation combined with Absolute and Partial Mitigation you're going to wind up with a very interesting, boss-centric, playstyle.

 

... That said. If you're going to make them Stealth Based with Hide as the first power in their secondary and only 1-2 additional defensive powers you're going to need to make all three of those powers provide the same sort of mitigation. That is to say Defense or Damage Resistance, but not both. Put simply, short of IO Set Bonuses splitting the difference will result in a character who doesn't gain enough defensive ability to survive. Even with Manipulation's Sustain.

 

Perhaps consider giving the 'Super Reflexes' or 'Ninjitsu' version AoE and Ranged defenses but no melee to speak of? Could be an interesting juggle, that way. No melee defense to speak of means they can't hang out undefended and melee everything to death, but they can if it's controlled...

[Replacement]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

So the secondary is 'Manipulation without the Melee/AoE attacks, just replace them with some armors'?

 

Sounds a lot like my previously proposed hybrid Armor/Control pairing... Which is a good solid basis for any Assault-Primary class. By using Passive and Active Mitigation combined with Absolute and Partial Mitigation you're going to wind up with a very interesting, boss-centric, playstyle.

 

... That said. If you're going to make them Stealth Based with Hide as the first power in their secondary and only 1-2 additional defensive powers you're going to need to make all three of those powers provide the same sort of mitigation. That is to say Defense or Damage Resistance, but not both. Put simply, short of IO Set Bonuses splitting the difference will result in a character who doesn't gain enough defensive ability to survive. Even with Manipulation's Sustain.

 

Perhaps consider giving the 'Super Reflexes' or 'Ninjitsu' version AoE and Ranged defenses but no melee to speak of? Could be an interesting juggle, that way. No melee defense to speak of means they can't hang out undefended and melee everything to death, but they can if it's controlled...

Errr no?  The secondary is "Recognizably Manipulation, with barebones replacements to avoid overlap with Assaults."

 

While I do like the idea of armor/control, it's just about the exact opposite of this class. 

 

This is basically a blapper with 3 survival advantages:

1) A very slight increase in enemy immobilization.  Honestly, this won't even matter after level 25 or so.

2) Inherent Stealth

3) Space for one additional defensive ability.  I would argue for a Placate or mez protection.

 

Blappers are doable; this is a take that would "institutionalize" some survivability while injecting some much-needed personality.

 

This is Bullseye, the AT.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Replacement

[Steampunkette]

53 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Errr no?  The secondary is "Recognizably Manipulation, with barebones replacements to avoid overlap with Assaults."

 

While I do like the idea of armor/control, it's just about the exact opposite of this class. 

 

This is basically a blapper with 3 survival advantages:

1) A very slight increase in enemy immobilization.  Honestly, this won't even matter after level 25 or so.

2) Inherent Stealth

3) Space for one additional defensive ability.  I would argue for a Placate or mez protection.

 

Blappers are doable; this is a take that would "institutionalize" some survivability while injecting some much-needed personality.

 

This is Bullseye, the AT.

Then it's going to need Blaster-Level damage values (Or very close to them) in order to have any kind of chance at surviving in melee long enough to fire off it's melee attack chain.

 

A Blapper can do it with IOs, or zip into melee to throw off one or two big hits, but they'll die, otherwise, if facing more than a few opponents, particularly early on. It's why all the blapper first tier powers are either immobilizes or knockback-based melee attacks.

 

 

[Lazarillo]

So I can see where the idea comes from.  Very Batman-y, coming out of nowhere and using the advantage of surprise for the psychological effect.

 

In execution it needs a little...something, though.  As noted, mixing the Manipulation sets with some Defense set elements would give a mix of control and armor for survivability.  But the question is, for an AT that uses Stealth, what's it using Stealth for?  Is it just the standard "critical hit on your first attack" that Stalkers and VEATs get?  Or am I missing something?  If it is, then, meh, we've got that already.  This could maybe be where the idea of a passive comes in, like you do an automatic PBAoE Confuse or Terrorize or the like when coming out of Hide.  I'd definitely lean heavily into the control with this concept, I think, to make it work best.

[Zepp]

For the secondary, it sounds like what we were discussing in the amalgamation thread:

On 9/13/2019 at 5:52 AM, Zepp said:

I would definitely like a set that is Assault/{Armor/Control}, but based on the voting, it seems like the support path is more popular.

 

Thinking about {Armor/Control} sets let's look at what one might look like:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Dark Lockdown (Dark Armor + Darkness Control + Darkness Manipulation)

Power	Level	Effect
Dark Embrace	1	Toggle: Self +Res(Smash, Lethal, Negative, Toxic) (Add +Res(Knockback, Repel, Taunt, Teleport))
Dark Grasp	2	Ranged, Moderate DMG(Negative), Foe Hold, -To Hit
Murky Cloud	4	Toggle: Self +Res(Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative, End Drain) (Add +Res(Psionic, Fear, Sleep, Confuse))
Touch of the Beyond	10	Fear, Foe -ToHit, Self +Regeneration, +Recovery
Living Shadows	16	Ranged (Cone), Minor DoT(Negative), Foe Immobilize, -To Hit, -Fly
Cloak of Darkness	20	Toggle: Self Stealth, +DEF(All), +Res(Immobilize), +Perception (Add +Res(Hold))
Haunt	28	Foe Targeted, Summon Shades
Shadow Field	35	Target (Location AoE), Foe Hold, -To Hit
Umbra Beast	38	Summon Umbra Beast

 

Earthy Lockdown (Stone Armor + Earth Control + Atomic Manipulation)

Power	Level	Effect
Rock Armor	1	Toggle: Self +DEF(Smash, Lethal), +Res(DEF Debuff) (Add +Res(Knockback, Repel, Taunt, Teleport))
Fossilize	2	Ranged, Foe Hold, -Def
Crystal Armor	4	Toggle: Self +DEF(Energy, Negative), +Res(DEF Debuff) (Add +Def(Fire/Cold))
Metabolic Acceleration	10	Toggle: Self +Recharge, + Special, +Regeneration, +Recovery, +Res(Hold, Stun, Sleep, Immob, End)
Stone Cages	16	Targeted AoE, Foe Immobilise, -Def, -Flight
Minerals	20	Toggle: Self +DEF(Psionic), +Res(Confuse), +Perception (Add +Res(Toxic, Fear))
Earthquake	28	Targeted Location AoE, Foe Knockdown –ACC, -Def
Volcanic Gasses	35	Targeted Location AoE, Pulsing Foe Hold
Animate Stone	38	Summon Pet

 

Electric Lockdown (Electric Armor + Electric Control + Electricity Manipulation)

Power	Level	Effect
Charged Armor	1	Toggle: Self +Res(Smash, Lethal, Energy) (Add +Res(Knockback, Repel, Taunt, Teleport))
Tesla Cage	2	Ranged, Moderate DMG(Energy), Foe Hold, -End
Conductive Shield	4	Toggle: Self +Res(Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative) (Add +Res(Fear, Sleep, Confuse))
Force of Thunder	10	PBAoE, Foe Disorient, Knockback, Self +Regeneration, +Recovery
Chain Fences	16	Ranged AoE, Minor DMG(Energy), Foe Immobilize, -End, -Fly
Static Shield	20	Toggle: Self +Res(Psionics, Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Teleport, End Drain, -Recovery) (Add +Res(Hold, Immobilize))
Jolting Chain	28	Ranged Chain AoE, Minor DMG(Energy), Foe Knockdown, -End
Paralyzing Blast	35	Ranged AoE, Foe Hold, -End
Gremlins	38	Summon Gremlins: Melee Minor DMG(Energy)

 

Fiery Lockdown (Fiery Aura + Fire Control + Fire Manipulation)

Power	Level	Effect
Fire Shield	1	Toggle: Self +Res(Smash, Lethal, Fire, Cold, Disorient) (Add +Res(Psionic, Knockback, Repel, Taunt, Teleport))
Char	2	Ranged, Foe Hold, -Def
Plasma Shield	4	Toggle: Self +Res(Fire, Energy, Negative, Hold, Sleep) (Add +Res(Fire/Cold))
Cauterizing Aura	10	Toggle: PBAoE, Minor DoT(Fire), Self  +Heal Over Time, +Recovery
Fire Cages	16	Targeted AoE, Foe Immobilise, -Def, -Flight
Temperature Protection	20	Auto: Self +Res(Fire, Cold, -Recharge, -SPD, -Jump) (Add +Res(Toxic))
Hot Feet	28	Toggle, PBAoE, Minor Damage (Fire), Foe Slow
Cinders	35	PBAoE, Foe Hold
Fire Imps	38	Summon three Imps

 

Gravitic Lockdown (Invulnerability + Gravity Control + Temporal Manipulation)

Power	Level	Effect
Temp Invulnerability	1	Toggle: Self +Res(Smash, Lethal) (Add +Res(Psionic, Knockback, Repel, Taunt, Teleport))
Gravity Distortion	2	Ranged, Moderate DoT(Smash), Foe Hold
Unyielding	4	Toggle: Self +Res(All DMG but Psionics, Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Knockback) (Add +Res(Fear, Confuse))
Temporal Healing	10	Self  +Absorb, +Recovery, +Res(Slow, Regen Debuff)
Crushing Field	16	Targeted AoE, Minor DoT (Smash), Foe Immobilize
Invincibility	20	Toggle: PBAoE, Foe Taunt, Self +DEF(All DMG but Psionics), +To Hit (Remove Foe Taunt)
Wormhole	28	Ranged foe teleport, Foe disorient, knockback
Gravity Distortion Field	35	Targeted AoE, Foe Hold
Singularity	38	Summon Singularity

 

Icy Lockdown (Ice Armor + Ice Control + Ice Manipulation)

Power	Level	Effect
Frozen Armor	1	Toggle: Self +DEF(Smash/Lethal), +Res(Fire, Cold, DEF Debuff) (Add +Res(Knockback, Repel, Taunt, Teleport))
Block of Ice	2	Ranged, Moderate Damage (Cold) Foe: Hold -Speed -Recharge
Wet Ice	4	Toggle: Self +DEF(All but Psionics), +Res(Cold, Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Knockback, -Recharge, -SPD, -Jump, DEF Debuff) (Add +Res(Fear))
Frigid Protection	10	Toggle: PBAoE, Foe -Recharge, -Speed, -DMG, Self +Absorb over Time, +Recovery
Frostbite	16	Targeted AoE, Minor Damage over Time (Cold), Foe Immobilize -Speed -Recharge
Glacial Armor	20	Toggle: Self +DEF(Energy, Negative), +Res(Cold, DEF Debuff), +Perception (Add +Res(Psionic, Toxic, Confuse))
Ice Slick	28	Targeted Location Area of Effect, Foe Knockdown -Speed
Glacier	35	Point Blank Area of Effect, Foe: Hold, -Recharge, -Speed
Jack Frost	38	Summon Jack Frost: Melee Moderate Damage (Cold)

 

Illusory Lockdown (Super Reflexes + Illusion Control + Devices)

Power	Level	Effect
Focused Fighting	1	Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(Confuse, DEF Debuff) (Add +Res(Knockback, Repel, Taunt, Teleport))
Blind	2	Ranged, Moderate DMG(Psionic), Foe Hold, +Special (AoE Sleep)
Focused Senses	4	Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception (Add +Res(Fear, Sleep, Confuse))
Field Operative	10	Toggle: Self Stealth, +Def(All), +Special, +Regeneration, +Recovery (Increase Stealth to 200ft, Add Threat Level -100%)
Phantom Army	16	Summon Decoys: Ranged Minor DMG(Energy/Special (Illusionary Damage Heal-Back))
Evasion	20	Toggle: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff) (Add +Res(Hold, Immobilize))
Spectral Terror	28	Summon Terror: Ranged, Fear
Flash	35	PBAoE, Foe Hold
Phantasm	38	Summon Phantasm: Ranged, Moderate DMG(Energy)

 

Mental Lockdown (Willpower + Mind Control + Mental Manipulation)

Power	Level	Effect
High Pain Tolerance	1	Auto: Self +Res(All), +Max Health (Add +Res(Knockback, Repel, Taunt, Teleport))
Dominate	2	Ranged, Moderate DMG(Psionic), Foe Hold
Indomitable Will	4	Toggle: Self +DEF(Psionic), +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Fear, Confusion, Knockback) (Add +Res(Fear, Sleep, Confuse))
Drain Psyche	10	PBAoE Foe -Regen, -Recovery; Self +Regen, +Recovery
Confuse	16	Ranged, Foe Confuse
Heightened Senses	20	Toggle: Self +DEF(All DMG but Psionics), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception (Add +Res(Immobilize))
Terrify	28	Ranged (Cone), Minor DMG(Psionic), Foe Fear(Special)
Total Domination	35	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Hold
Mass Confusion	38	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Confuse

 

Natural Lockdown (Bio Armor + Plant Control + Plant Manipulation)

Power	Level	Effect
Hardened Carapace	1	Self Toggle, +Res(Lethal, Smash, Toxic, Disorient, Sleep), +Regen (Add +Res(Knockback, Repel, Taunt, Teleport))
Strangler	2	Ranged, Moderate DoT(Smashing), Foe Hold
Environmental Modification	4	Self Toggle, +Res(Hold, Knockdown, Immobilize), +DefRes(Energy, Negative, Fire, Cold, Psionic) (Add +Res(Fear, Sleep))
Wild Fortress	10	Self +Absorb, +Recovery, +Res(Toxic, Confuse)
Roots	16	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Minor DoT(Smashing/Lethal), Foe Immobilize
Evolving Armor	20	Self Toggle, +Res(All), Foe -Res(All), Taunt, (Remove Taunt, Add +Res(Immobilize))
Carrion Creepers	28	Summon Creepers: Ranged (Location AoE), Foe -SPD, -Fly, -Jump
Vines	35	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Hold
Fly Trap	38	Summon Fly Trap: Ranged, Control, Special

 

Would that step on Dom's feet too much?

I think the mix of armor and control with the sustain from manipulation is a good choice. I do not like the idea of the stance inherrent, I find stancing to be annoying and they are difficult to balance because it is overpowered (bio armor) or fairly pointless (dual pistols)...

 

btw, I will add this to the AT concept thread soon, just waiting to see if there are any revisions to your original idea...

Edited September 24, 2019 by Zepp

[biostem]

Given what has been talked about with this AT, I kind of feel like they should have a "distraction" or "misdirection" inherent, instead of stealth & crits.  What if they had something that kind of acted like a confuse, but when enemies were so "enchanted", it would then trigger a form of domination/containment.  Basically, you trick/distract/deceive your opponents, and now you can land your attacks & abilities for more damage and with a greater impact, (read: bonus magnitude to mez & debuff effects).  I'd almost treat this like a sleep effect, (i.e. you can land non-damaging effects without disturbing them), only with a different animation...

 

EDIT:  I was kind of thinking - imagine if there was a location-based click power, (let's call it "distract"), which is kind of like the stereotypical scene in a movie where you throw a stone and all the villain mooks go and see what that noise was.  It'd have a decently sized AoE, and all affected enemies would go to the target location, have their perception debuffed, and be susceptible to your (or your team's) negative status/mez effects...

Edited September 24, 2019 by biostem

[Zepp]

14 minutes ago, biostem said:

Given what has been talked about with this AT, I kind of feel like they should have a "distraction" or "misdirection" inherent, instead of stealth & crits.  What if they had something that kind of acted like a confuse, but when enemies were so "enchanted", it would then trigger a form of domination/containment.  Basically, you trick/distract/deceive your opponents, and now you can land your attacks & abilities for more damage and with a greater impact, (read: bonus magnitude to mez & debuff effects).  I'd almost treat this like a sleep effect, (i.e. you can land non-damaging effects without disturbing them), only with a different animation...

Chance to placate, placated/non-aggroed enemies receive bonus damage/magnitude effects? Maybe too stalkery?

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Chance to placate, placated/non-aggroed enemies receive bonus damage/magnitude effects? Maybe too stalkery?

Well, not too "stalkery", but I'm not a fan of "chance to" type effects that would probably be vital to this AT's survival.  What do you think of the "distraction" idea?

[Zepp]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Well, not too "stalkery", but I'm not a fan of "chance to" type effects that would probably be vital to this AT's survival.  What do you think of the "distraction" idea?

Would you be replacing the build up -ish power from assault and moving it to T₁? Or would it be the T₁ from their secondary? It would probably work like an AoE placate (or sleep) +special. The duration would have to be fairly limited to prevent it from being OP. It would be slightly more limiting than Stalker's Crit, but its ability to increase magnitude make it slightly more powerful of an effect. It still seems much less powerful than Dom/Troller/Stalker inherents and requires the use of a non-damaging ability to maximize output.

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Would you be replacing the build up -ish power from assault and moving it to T₁? Or would it be the T₁ from their secondary? It would probably work like an AoE placate (or sleep) +special. The duration would have to be fairly limited to prevent it from being OP. It would be slightly more limiting than Stalker's Crit, but its ability to increase magnitude make it slightly more powerful of an effect. It still seems much less powerful than Dom/Troller/Stalker inherents and requires the use of a non-damaging ability to maximize output.

Well, I was actually thinking it'd be available about as often as a stalker's AS.  My idea was that you could distract a group then basically get the jump on them.  Of course, they wouldn't get a placate-like effect to immediately fire off a 2nd one.  Basically, they'd be a sort of AoE-alpha-strike master, where stalkers are about single targets.

[Steampunkette]

What if instead of Hide as a basic power at level 1, we give them an inherent stealth buff?

 

No invisibility, no defense value increase, but a passive 25-35ft stealth bonus. Stalkers get 150. We can make the inherent suppress in combat and give the Striker a 12.5% damage buff while the effect is active. Minions have a perception radius of 45ft, so they wouldn't notice the Striker 'til they got within 10-20ft of them, giving the Striker time to position well and get off a nice attack on them. Lieutenants have 50ft, so it's not much further. Even Bosses/EBs/AVs only have 54, baseline.

 

But certain perceptive groups, like Arachnos, Knives of Artemis, and Rularuu with all their eyes, would see right through the stealth 'cause they're more alert!

 

And if someone -wanted- to do a Stealth-Centric build they could just pick up Stealth from the pool or Superspeed to get the added stealth values. (35ft additional stealth would let them stand next to most enemies without being spotted)

 

Then we give the AT a tier 1 defensive power, a tier 3 defensive power, and a tier 4 or 5 "Sustain" which works with the defensive powers to keep them standing. Now those defensive powers don't have to be a simple toggle. We could give them Autopowers or Clicks. Though with how click-heavy the sets are going to be between Assault/Manipulation I think toggles might be a good idea. Or a Toggle and an Auto. 

 

Shuffle in the Debuff Auras, the Control Powers, and the additional AoE or ST damage of higher power melee attacks from the secondary...

 

I think it could work.

[Steampunkette]

Let's see if this tickles your fancy, @Replacement, I renamed the Manipulation Powersets 'Projection' because they're not Manipulation once you add in defensive powers.

 

Ice Projection (Italics indicate changed powers)

Tier	Power
1	Frozen Armor (+Res Cold, +Def S/L
2	Frostbite (TAoE Immobilize)
3	Hoarfrost (+Max HP, +Res Toxic)
4	Frigid Protection
5	Build Up
6	Ice Patch
7	Shiver
8	Freezing Touch
9	Frozen Aura

 

With a low-level toggle and a self-heal with +HP tied to it, the archetype gets some survivability which interacts with Frigid Protection's Absorb function. With a single toggle they get 12.75% Defense and 22.5% Resistance which is nice but without multiple powers working with it just isn't much at all, and the +HP of Hoarfrost also comes with a fairly large self-heal (Starts at 40% though we could downgrade it to 30%)

 

As for Psychic...

 

Psychic Projection (Italics indicate changed powers)

Tier	Power
1	Mind Over Body (Self+Res S/L/P)
2	Mass Hypnosis (TAoE Sleep)
3	High Pain Tolerance (+Res All+HP)
4	Psi Blade (Melee Psi)
5	Concentration
6	Drain Psyche (PBAoE +Regen/Rec)
7	World of Confusion
8	Greater Psi Blade (Melee Psi)
9	Telekinesis (TAoE Hold/Repel)

 

For the Assault Primary of Psychic we'd need to replace Drain Psyche, perhaps with Psionic Tornado? But aside from that this set would work just fine. It would also probably be the MOST control-centric of the Projection Powersets... But I think that's appropriate for Psionics. They get their Sustain later 'cause of how powerful it is, and the debuff it applies...

 

For their Ancillary Pools we can mostly do Support/Defense. Augment what they have and give them some team-benefit.

 

Mastery of the Mind 

Tier	Power
1	Heal Other
2	Heightened Senses
3	Healing Aura
4	Link Minds
5	Strength of Will

 

Mastery of Chill

Tier	Power
1	Ice Shield
2	Arctic Fog
3	Frostwork
4	Sleet
5	Hibernate

 

Mastery of Flame

Tier	Power
1	Cauterize
2	Temperature Protection
3	Thermal Shield
4	Blazing Aura
5	Rise of the Phoenix

 

Mastery over Energy

Tier	Power
1	Transfusion
2	Energy Drain
3	Siphon Power
4	Speed Boost
5	Overload

Edited September 24, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Zepp]

One of the issues with using too much of the Manipulation pools is that some of them have straight damage powers and not enough control. So each set would need to be evaluated to keep the control powers and minimize the damage-centric powers...

[Replacement]

I really like the feedback. I was leaning towards something like what biostem was saying, where any passive would be more about continuing to evade capture than survival, and definitely no crits. 

 

But a lot of great ideas in directions I wasn't thinking in. I'm in the middle of some projects atm but I'll quote-respond in a few hours.

 

EDIT: real quick, though. @Zepp I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. Much like Support sets, you will get a wide variety of capabilities based on which Manipulation you choose. It works for blaster; it shouldn't be much different here.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by Replacement

[Steampunkette]

14 minutes ago, Zepp said:

One of the issues with using too much of the Manipulation pools is that some of them have straight damage powers and not enough control. So each set would need to be evaluated to keep the control powers and minimize the damage-centric powers...

I -kind- of agree, I kinda don't.

 

So long as those attack powers aren't part of the Assault Set to start with it gives you some great room to cobble together attack chains. Take Psi Assault and Psi-Projection. Mind Probe, TK Thrust, Psi Blade, and Greater Psi Blade allow you to build a decent melee single target attack chain.

 

 

Meanwhile an Ice/Ice Agent or Striker wouldn't have the same ability to put together a melee chain, but instead gets more comprehensive Control Effects, giving both sets some differences in how they play within the Archetype. 

 

Both characters would also have -very- different approaches to control powers. With Mass Hypnosis, World of Confusion, and Telekinesis, the Psionic Striker can shut down extra spawns, confuse people they're near to, or push enemies around. They change the battlefield by cutting off attacks and moving people around. The Ice Striker, on the other hand, uses Ice Patch, Shiver, Freezing Touch, and Frozen Aura to keep the battlefield right where it is, and screw over the enemies standing on it.

 

By having variety in the control quantities and attack quantities we can create more 'Defensive' or 'Offensive' Strikers and, really, that's just bloody brilliant, to me!

 

[Zepp]

5 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I really like the feedback. I was leaning towards something like what biostem was saying, where any passive would be more about continuing to evade capture than survival, and definitely no crits. 

 

But a lot of great ideas in directions I wasn't thinking in. I'm in the middle of some projects atm but I'll quote-respond in a few hours.

 

EDIT: real quick, though. @Zepp I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. Much like Support sets, you will get a wide variety of capabilities based on which Manipulation you choose. It works for blaster; it shouldn't be much different here.

For blasters they are getting melee-ranged attacks. With an assault primary, they don't need melee-ranged attacks. That is the difference. There are also some powers that have a direct crossover; Smite and Midnight Grasp, for example, are in both Assault and Manipulation sets...

Edited September 24, 2019 by Zepp

[Zepp]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

I -kind- of agree, I kinda don't.

 

So long as those attack powers aren't part of the Assault Set to start with it gives you some great room to cobble together attack chains. Take Psi Assault and Psi-Projection. Mind Probe, TK Thrust, Psi Blade, and Greater Psi Blade allow you to build a decent melee single target attack chain.

 

 

Meanwhile an Ice/Ice Agent or Striker wouldn't have the same ability to put together a melee chain, but instead gets more comprehensive Control Effects, giving both sets some differences in how they play within the Archetype. 

 

Both characters would also have -very- different approaches to control powers. With Mass Hypnosis, World of Confusion, and Telekinesis, the Psionic Striker can shut down extra spawns, confuse people they're near to, or push enemies around. They change the battlefield by cutting off attacks and moving people around. The Ice Striker, on the other hand, uses Ice Patch, Shiver, Freezing Touch, and Frozen Aura to keep the battlefield right where it is, and screw over the enemies standing on it.

 

By having variety in the control quantities and attack quantities we can create more 'Defensive' or 'Offensive' Strikers and, really, that's just bloody brilliant, to me!

 

As someone who proposed a straight Manipulation/Assault AT, I actually do agree with you. The two issues are crossover and redundancy. Some of the manipulation sets are too offensive oriented to be useful for a toon with Assault. Adding in a couple defensive powers allows you the flexibility to make this less problematic, I was just making sure that we realize that it is going to require some caution in the development of "Projection" (I would have gone with "Intrigue") sets...

[Steampunkette]

The more I think about this archetype the more I want to play it... Have a few more Projection Powersets.

 

Energy Projection (Italics indicate changed powers)

Tier	Power
1	Kinetic Shield (Toggle, +Def S/L/E)
2	Crushing Field (TAoE Immob)
3	Dampening Field (Auto +Res S/L/E)
4	Aim
5	Energize
6	Stun
7	Gravity Distortion (Ranged Hold)
8	Boost Range
9	Energy Transfer (Melee Damage)

Big on Locking down the battlefield including Single Target controls for Bosses.

 

 

Fire Projection (Italics indicate changed powers)

Tier	Power
1	Fire Shield (Toggle +Res S/L/F/C)
2	Fire Cages (TAoE Immob)
3	Healing Flames (Self Heal)
4	Fire Sword (Melee Damage)
5	Aim
6	Cauterizing Aura
7	Consume
8	Burn
9	Hot Feet

All about that sweet, sweet, Self-Healing and Area Denial.

 

 

Electrical Projection (Italics indicate changed powers)

Tier	Power
1	Charged Armor (Toggle+Res S/L/E)
2	Chain Fences (TAoE Immob)
3	Grounded (Auto +Res E/N/KB)
4	Lightning Field (PBAoE Damage Toggle)
5	Aim
6	Force of Thunder
7	Jolting Chain (Chain Knockdown)
8	Power Sink
9	Shocking Grasp

Endurance Manipulation, AoE Soft Control, Single Target Hard Control.

 

 

Umbral Projection (Italics indicate changed powers)

Tier	Power
1	Dark Embrace (Toggle+Res S/L/N/T)
2	Fearsome Stare (Cone Fear)
3	Cloak of Darkness (Toggle Stealth)
4	Shadow Maul
5	Soul Drain
6	Touch of the Beyond
7	Dark Consumption
8	Dark Pit
9	Soul Transfer

Really good at stealing from the enemy and making them quake in fear.

 

 

Nuclear Projection (Italics indicate changed powers)

Tier	Power
1	Alpha Barrier(Toggle+Res S/L/T)
2	Strong Nuclear Force (AoE Immob)
3	Gamma Boost (Auto +Reg/Rec)
4	Ionize
5	Beta Decay
6	Metabolic Acceleration
7	Ground Zero (PBAoE Foe Damage, Ally +HP, HoT)
8	Radioactive Cloud
9	Irradiated Ground (Toggle PBAoE Damage Patches)

Big focus on Damage and some minor controls.

 

Ki Projection (Italics indicate changed powers)

Tier	Power
1	Danger Senses (Toggle+Def AoE/R)
2	Burst of Speed (Teleport Damage)
3	Shinobi Iri (Toggle Stealth +Dam)
4	Storm Kick
5	Reaction Time
6	Inner Will
7	Ninja Reflexes (Toggle+Def Melee)
8	Throw Sand
9	Eagle's Claw

 

A No Control set with three defensive toggles. 

[Steampunkette]

To express why ki projection has no controls: vectored defenses are powerful on their own. Vector the defenses and control effects would make this particular set more powerful than others.

[Zepp]

I think this could work (very similar to my Zoomer, but adding the defense and flipping the primary/secondary should be helpful - now that the "manipulation" T₁ is no longer a ranged immobilize). This is also similar to what we've been talking about in the Amalgamation thread.

 

The issue is how to work the passive. Is it a build-up bar that leads to a click power PBAoE Placate +Special (+DMG, +2 Mag to CC)? The build-up bar could be based on time out of combat, making it an alpha-only ability, but decreasing the recharge to perhaps 2-3s, allowing you to alpha spawn after spawn with little downtime, but not giving you a get-out-of-jail-free-card. That way you would only get to damage "distracted" enemies and would require an active step before engagement. Either that or simply a "free" click power on a 20-30s recharge (maybe 45s-0.5s/level) (unaffected by global recharge, no slots).
 

Another idea would be to have a -100% Threat Level (similar to Superior Invisibility) in the passive. That would give you protection in a crowd and work well with a placate or "distract" ability...

[Steampunkette]

I prefer the passive stealth approach, myself. Anytime you have a clickability it feels less like an inherent part of the character and more like just another power. At least it does to me.

 

That said... Maybe a character boost function which increases the duration of controls the quantity of knock-back the power of secondary effects including + defense + resistance + regen + recovery for all powers could be pretty nice... Even fully enhanced you could pop that before I fight to increase the effectiveness of your various defensive controls and defensive powers as well as your sustain.

[Zepp]

I tend to not prefer click abilities for inherents as well, but that was what was being discussed.

 

One idea would be something like Preparation: you have a bar that outside of combat grows to increase damage and to hit, engaged in combat that buff declines and you have increased defense, resist, regen, recovery, absorb, and control duration. That way you enter the battle "surprise" your enemy with an offensive buff and as you "learn" your enemy your defensive abilities improve. That provides the previously discussed alpha aoe boost with help for sustain. The -threat could be on top of that and help provide aggro management.

[Steampunkette]

I feel like the Preparation Bar as sort of a 'Reverse Fury' could work, but it means that your first fight in the average mission will be "At full power" and every fight after that is going to be 10-15 seconds later, which won't be much time to build Preparation in. I don't think we could do a 'Defensive Reversal' mechanic, though, where you get more defenses as the bar drops in combat. If only because any well built Striker is going to be able to cap defense or resistance pretty easily through sets and render the defensive benefits moot.

 

Personally I like the passive stealth. It's present, it's nifty, but it won't be a -huge- change to things. For a Team Benefit I would say give them a lower Threat Level and Multiplier. 

 

Masterminds, Blasters, Defenders, Controllers, and Corruptors all have a starting threat level of 1 with a .5 Taunt Multiplier. Tankers have a Threat Level of 4 with a Multiplier of 1. Only Brutes and Stalkers have a Multiplier that high, even Scrappers have a .75 Taunt Multiplier. Well, okay HEATs in Dwarf mode get the Multiplier of 1 but that's it!

 

So how about an AT with a Threat level of .75 and a Multiplier of .25? It would allow Strikers to shed aggro like water off a duck's back (on Teams) because they wouldn't be able to steal the threat off of an active Defender if their life depended on it.

 

The threat formula is:

Threat = Damage * Debuff Mod * AT Mod * AI Mod * Range Mod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000)

 

AT Mod is where the .75 would go in, lowering the overall value of Threat generated.

[Zepp]

I think that would work (maybe even dropping to 0.5 and a 0.25 multiplier), for passive stealth (automatically stealthy or linked to their secondary T₁?), what exactly do you mean? If we are going with just a "Reverse Fury" mechanic, it would have to be on a timer of about 8s or less (similar to Stalker Hide).

Edited September 25, 2019 by Zepp