Defender or Sentinel?

[Ankhammon]

I'm starting a new character based off The Shadow and I'm not sure which way to go. Should I go DP/Dark Sentinel with personal defense and all that lovely status prot or a Dark/DP defender with so much more control/debuff/buff but losing the damage?

 

What do you think the advantages are for one over the other? 

[Rathulfr]

It depends on what you really want.  Sentinels are survivable, but not much else.  They're great for new players learning the game, or for soloing.  But if this isn't your first rodeo, and you want more nuance in your game play, I'd recommend the Defender, instead.

 

(* Note: I don't play Defenders.  I have played over a dozen different Sentinel builds.  So this isn't a case of pro-Defender bias.)

[SmalltalkJava]

Sentinels are a great starting class.    Defenders bring nuance and can get good defenses with a good build.    Either one will probably be fun for you.    I’ve never gotten a level 50 sentinel as I play them as a side hobby.   But both are fun for me. 

[TheAdjustor]

37 minutes ago, Ankhammon said:

I'm starting a new character based off The Shadow and I'm not sure which way to go. Should I go DP/Dark Sentinel with personal defense and all that lovely status prot or a Dark/DP defender with so much more control/debuff/buff but losing the damage?

 

What do you think the advantages are for one over the other? 

The Shadow is much more  a dark miasma user than a dark armor user. Just think fearsome stare and clouding men's minds

[Darkir]

Have you considered a Corruptor? I have a Dual/Dark Corruptor build with softcapped M/R def and 71% s/l res with soul drain and perma hasten. I think it would do more DMG than a defender and still have the necessary defenses. Of course, it is much easier to do this on a defender. Also, a proc build on a defender could conceivably do more dmg even when buffed. 

 

Build:

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.5
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Mutation Corruptor
Primary Power Set: Dual Pistols
Secondary Power Set: Dark Miasma
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Dark Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Dual Wield -- SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrBls-Dmg/Rchg(34), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48)
Level 1: Twilight Grasp -- NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(3), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(15), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(37), NmnCnv-Heal(37), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(40)
Level 2: Empty Clips -- Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(5), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Rgn-Knock%(7), FrcFdb-Rechg%(50)
Level 4: Tar Patch -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 6: Swap Ammo 
Level 8: Maneuvers -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(9), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(9), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(11), RedFrt-Def(11), RedFrt-EndRdx(13)
Level 10: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Tactics -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(48)
Level 16: Shadow Fall -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(17), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(17), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(27), RedFrt-Def(29), RedFrt-EndRdx(29)
Level 18: Executioner's Shot -- Thn-Acc/Dmg(A), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(19), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27)
Level 20: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(21), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(21), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(23), GldArm-3defTpProc(23)
Level 22: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(31), LucoftheG-Def(34), LucoftheG-EndRdx/Rchg(36), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(36)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 26: Piercing Rounds -- SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMlcoft-Dmg/Rchg(31), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), SprMlcoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), SprMlcoft-Rchg/Dmg%(43)
Level 28: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(50)
Level 30: Bullet Rain -- SprScrBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), SprScrBls-Rchg/+End(48)
Level 32: Hail of Bullets -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(33), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(33), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Obl-%Dam(37)
Level 35: Dark Consumption -- PrfShf-EndMod/Rchg(A)
Level 38: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 41: Dark Embrace -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-Max HP%(42), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(42), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(43), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(45)
Level 44: Soul Drain -- SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(50)
Level 47: Howling Twilight -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Darkest Night -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- TchofDth-Acc/Dmg(A), TchofDth-Dmg/EndRdx(13), TchofDth-Dmg/Rchg(39), TchofDth-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), TchofDth-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), TchofDth-Dam%(40)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Scourge 
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(3)
Level 0: Invader 
Level 0: High Pain Threshold 
Level 0: Born In Battle 
Level 0: Marshal 
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
Level 6: Chemical Ammunition 
Level 6: Cryo Ammunition 
Level 6: Incendiary Ammunition 
------------

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[Ankhammon]

OK. I hear y'all and it sounds like Dark Miasma ftw. For me, it was down to Fearsome Stare vs. Cloak of Fear anyway.

 

Now I gotta see between defender and corrupter. In the past this has never been an issue for me, Defenderphile here. But I'll need to run the numbers a bit.

 

What do you all think of Sorcery line for the theme? I know the Shadow has magic items provided to him before but is that too far?

 

Oh, and the other question would be soul or dark mastery? I think Dark, with it's self rez might be a more thematic choice. On the other hand, Soul/Power Boost, maybe not as needed as on a Time or Poison or others but ya know.

[oldskool]

15 hours ago, Ankhammon said:

I'm starting a new character based off The Shadow and I'm not sure which way to go. Should I go DP/Dark Sentinel with personal defense and all that lovely status prot or a Dark/DP defender with so much more control/debuff/buff but losing the damage?

 

What do you think the advantages are for one over the other? 

A Dark/DP doesn't really need to lose a lot of damage.  You'll just want to adjust your build idea to accommodate it.  Suppressive Fire on Defenders does little to no damage but it comes with a very long cool down making it friendly to damage procs.  Suppressive Fire can take on multiple damage procs from the Hold category making it an ideal vehicle to deliver that type of bonus damage, if you want. 

With a heavy proc build, you can have a single target rotation constructed around the same types of attacks that a Sentinel may wish to use (Pistols, Executioner's Shot, Suppressive Fire, in my opinion).  So single target can be very similar in method and delivery a bit different.  Then you have to look at the AoE factors.  Empty Clips, Bullet Rain, and Hail of Bullets have better target caps than a Sentinel does.  There is no reason why you can't add some procs to Bullet Rain and make it more efficient.  Due to the higher defensive and debuff numbers on the Defender, you can get away with having procs in your attacks easier than the Sentinel in question.  I'll just add here... I've done this and it works for both Corruptor and Defender. 

Suppressive Fire + Petrifying Gaze in Dark Miasma can stack Hold.  Chemical Rounds and Darkest Night help groups far earlier than a Sentinel can ever pull that off AND the numbers are far better on the Defender.  I think Dark Miasma and Dual Pistols have group support synergy.  Dual Pistols brings a number tools that can stack with Dark Miasma (slow, resistance debuff, damage debuff, etc.) and then some (negative defense in Pistols/Executioner's Shot using Standard Ammo). 

There is very little synergy between Dual Pistols and Dark Armor.  You could leverage Standard Ammunition for the Stun in Suppressive Fire with Oppressive Gloom.  You could leverage the damage debuff from Chemical Rounds to help reduce some damage taken with Dark Armor.  That's about as far as the synergy goes.  Cloak of Fear has nothing to stack with in Dual Pistols making it kind of "meh".  Dark Armor also still has that knockback/down hole that can be annoying.  Dark Armor has no T9 defense/resist power either.  Dark Armor does not cap resistances on its own.  Nor does it get close on soft-capping defense without a lot of help.  You can cap resistance with the Fighting Pool (Tough) and Sorcery (Rune of Protection).  You can push around 32% melee/range/aoe defense with Fighting (Weave), Leadership (Maneuvers), and Psi Mastery (Link Minds).  It is tough to do all of that without some significant cuts to power choices and some pretty tight slot picks.  Also, in order to really push defenses past 20% you're going to want set bonuses in your attacks to help get you there.  Also going to add, I've done this too.

I don't want to dissuade you or anyone from playing Dual Pistols/Dark Armor.  I think the concept sounds cool AF and it would most likely be very fun.  Dual Pistols can appreciate being in melee range due to Hail of Bullets and Dark Armor does have Cloak of Shadows to stealth you into position (ok, some more synergy). 

TL;DR:
1) Depending on how you build (procs vs full sets) the Defender vs Sentinel damage debate here may get more blurry than you think.

2) Defender is going to be hands down better in teams due to the power of Dark Miasma.  Depending on build, the solo aspect wouldn't be too terrible either but might mature later than you care for.  For support options, there is a lot of synergy.

3) The Sentinel will feel smoother from level 1 to 50+ and has far less of a noticeable power spike.  Damage should feel more consistent earlier but could be a blurry line with a damage-focused Defender abusing procs.  The combo has some, but not a lot, of synergy.

 

In the Sentinel sub forum, there is a WIP on Sentinel sets.  I have written one on Dark Armor and Dual Pistols if you wish to read more on either.  I have played DP/Dark as Corruptor and Dark/DP as Defender.  I think the Defender is stronger on the DP side but not nearly as noticeable on the Dark Miasma side.  Honestly either are good choices.  I also have played Dark Blast/Dark Armor, and currently Water Blast/Dark Armor Sentinels as well as Dual Pistols/Ninjutsu. 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by oldskool

[Ankhammon]

Oldskool, I like the way you think. 

 

for the Dark Armor T9 I think it's kinda the ultimate tier 9 for armor. don't have to remember or freak out on getting into trouble, just pop it and watch all the baddies stagger about while you kick their tails. 🙂

[oedipus_tex]

I would go Blaster. Possibly DP/Temporal. 

[Ankhammon]

Now we're talking Hourman